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"Nothing we can do" is untrue

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
31 March 2004
Last activity
5 April 2004
Original author
Toby Joe
Posts
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  1. From: "Kim" <[email hidden]>
    Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
    Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 10:47 AM
    Subject: Re: Death: Stalking a Continent

    Quoted message said:

    I think everyone knows but there is nothing anyone can do.

    Then "everyone knows" wrong.

    There is _plenty_ that ordinary people could do, if only the
    will to do it was there.

    Mainly because of the vast difference in wealth between our
    countries and theirs. It costs very, very little to achieve
    life-impacting change for a child, for a family, even for an
    entire village over there.

    When asked what you would have done in Germany during the
    time when families were disappearing, you said you would
    probably try to save some, at least one or two, if at all
    possible. Apparently the same does not apply in this
    situation?

    --
    costofwar.comcostofwar.com www.unicef.org/sowc02/g31.htm

  2. "Toby Joe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    From: "Kim" <[email hidden]> Newsgroups:
    misc.health.alternative Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 10:47
    AM Subject: Re: Death: Stalking a Continent

    Quoted message said:

    I think everyone knows but there is nothing anyone
    can do.

    Quoted message said:

    Then "everyone knows" wrong. There is _plenty_ that
    ordinary people could do, if only the will to do it
    was there.

    I have no more MONEY to spare - sorry! We support several
    charities here where we live.

    Quoted message said:

    Mainly because of the vast difference in wealth between
    our countries and theirs. It costs very, very little to
    achieve life-impacting change for a child, for a family,
    even for an entire village over there.

    Charity begins at home. Is anyone teaching them about birth-
    control? Why do they have so many children when there isn't
    enough to go around as it is?

    Quoted message said:

    When asked what you would have done in Germany during the
    time when families were disappearing, you said you would
    probably try to save some, at least one or two, if at all
    possible. Apparently the same does not


    apply

    Quoted message said:

    in this situation?

    How would I get several of them HERE to where I live? These
    are NOT my neighbors but foreigners living 1/2 a world away.
    The Jews were being slaughtered by a madman, not a disease
    caused by their own actions, beliefs and customs.
    --
    Kim Colonics to clean out your stuffed up @$$ Of all the
    toxic goodies you do not pass Globs of gunk and the mucus
    you store Parasites, flukes and worms galore So take a
    colonic so you can pass All these nasties from your
    paracitized @$$..... The most amazing BS artists there are:
    members.rogers.comindex.html
    geocities.comQuackery.html
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  3. Kim said:

    "Toby Joe" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    I think everyone knows but there is nothing anyone
    can do.

    Quoted message said:

    Then "everyone knows" wrong. There is _plenty_ that
    ordinary people could do, if only the will to do it was
    there.

    I have no more MONEY to spare - sorry! We support several
    charities here where we live.

    I was not asking if you did, nor asking for your money.

    I am disputing your claim that "Everyone knows there is
    nothing anyone could do".

    Another MHA poster demonstrated that it costs nothing to do
    several things, where the intention and human concern is
    present. That poster a) signed a petition, thereby adding
    weight to the concerns of many; b) drew attention to the
    petition on line; c) presented the words from that petition,
    so that others may learn of the concerns that are already
    shared by many.

    And no, I am not asking anyone to "sign petitions". I am
    saying that there are other ways of helping than by giving
    money, for example, by acting to increase awareness of the
    situation, or by allowing others to do so.

    When I was approached four years ago by someone who works
    over there to help in some way, I said right then that I did
    not have money to contribute at that time, but offered to
    help by giving my time within the context of the work that I
    do, - by working in whatever small way I am able, to
    increase awareness and to facilitate communication between
    their group in Africa and individuals and groups in other
    countries who were and are supporting them in various ways.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Mainly because of the vast difference in wealth between
    our countries and theirs. It costs very, very little to
    achieve life-impacting change for a child, for a family,
    even for an entire village over there.

    Charity begins at home. Is anyone teaching them about birth-
    control?

    Family planning and birth control is a priority with all
    health education from the hospital that is there, and from
    within the neighbouring community education centre.

    They teach not only those who visit the hospital or the
    community, they also send people out into the villages to
    teach them there.

    Quoted message said:

    Why do they have so many children when there isn't enough
    to go around as it is?

    Most of the families associated with the community that I am
    familiar with have only two or three children of their own.
    They also care for the orphaned children of their siblings.
    Most families now have at least two orphans to care for, and
    also, very often, at least one grandparent.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    When asked what you would have done in Germany during
    the time when families were disappearing, you said you
    would probably try to save some, at least one or two, if
    at all possible. Apparently the same does not apply in
    this situation?

    How would I get several of them HERE to where I live?

    They do not need to be taken out of the country to give them
    some essential protection against being infected with
    HIV/AIDS. Children who are newly orphaned and who do not
    have another immediate relative to care for them are totally
    vulnerable. Many become street kids, and so the cycle
    continues. If someone wanted to sponsor one child they could
    usually find a way. The cost is very little, often no more
    than a dollar a day to change a life, and while you, or I
    for that matter, may not be able to find that dollar at any
    time, there are those who can and do.

    Quoted message said:

    These are NOT my neighbors but foreigners living 1/2 a
    world away. The Jews were being slaughtered by a madman,
    not a disease caused by their own actions, beliefs and
    customs.

    And they, too, were "in another country", far away, not
    someone's immediate neighbour, and so on. The relative
    distance is no more now than it was then. In fact with
    today's media and communication systems they are closer.

    And there were those people then (and possibly even now) who
    thought that situation was caused by the people's own
    "actions, beliefs and customs".

    And while you may think you know the "causes", others take a
    more compassionate and humane approach.

    --
    costofwar.comcostofwar.com www.unicef.org/sowc02/g31.htm

  4. "Toby Joe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Kim said:

    "Toby Joe" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I have no more MONEY to spare - sorry! We support
    several charities


    here

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    where we live.

    Quoted message said:

    I was not asking if you did, nor asking for your money.

    Then what else can anyone do to help them? Anti-AIDS drugs
    are expensive. No nation can afford to treat every African
    who has AIDS.

    Quoted message said:

    I am disputing your claim that "Everyone knows there is
    nothing anyone could do".

    Who doesn't know? Someone under a rock with no TV or PC?

    Quoted message said:

    Another MHA poster demonstrated that it costs nothing to
    do several


    things,

    Quoted message said:

    where the intention and human concern is present. That
    poster a) signed a petition, thereby adding weight to the
    concerns of many; b) drew


    attention

    Quoted message said:

    to the petition on line; c) presented the words from that
    petition, so that others may learn of the concerns that
    are already shared by many. And no, I am not asking anyone
    to "sign petitions". I am saying that


    there

    Quoted message said:

    are other ways of helping than by giving money, for
    example, by acting to increase awareness of the situation,
    or by allowing others to do so.

    I live in the USA and everyone HERE is aware of what's going
    on in Africa if they read a paper or watch the News on TV.
    Africa has had nothing but wars, starvation and now it's
    AIDS. People grow weary and prefer to help their own. We
    have enough people here to worry about. What makes you think
    we're all rich and obese?

    Quoted message said:

    When I was approached four years ago by someone who works
    over there to help in some way, I said right then that I
    did not have money to


    contribute

    Quoted message said:

    at that time, but offered to help by giving my time within
    the context of the work that I do, - by working in
    whatever small way I am able, to increase awareness

    Everyone is aware. See above.

    and to facilitate communication between their group in

    Quoted message said:

    Africa and individuals and groups in other countries who
    were and are supporting them in various ways.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Charity begins at home. Is anyone teaching them about
    birth-control?

    Quoted message said:

    Family planning and birth control is a priority with all
    health education from the hospital that is there, and from
    within the neighbouring


    community

    Quoted message said:

    education centre. They teach not only those who visit the
    hospital or the community, they also send people out into
    the villages to teach them there.

    Then they're getting help already. Perhaps with a small
    population the starvation at least will cease. Condoms may
    help prevent more AIDS cases.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Why do they have so many children when there isn't
    enough to go around


    as

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    it is?

    Quoted message said:

    Most of the families associated with the community that I
    am familiar with have only two or three children of their
    own. They also care for the orphaned children of their
    siblings. Most families now have at least two orphans to
    care for, and also, very often, at least one grandparent.

    This is tragic! No one says it isn't, but our homeless
    shelters are overflowing with families who can't afford the
    rents here in the USA.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    How would I get several of them HERE to where I live?

    Quoted message said:

    They do not need to be taken out of the country to give
    them some


    essential

    Quoted message said:

    protection against being infected with HIV/AIDS. Children
    who are newly orphaned and who do not have another
    immediate relative to care for them are totally
    vulnerable. Many become street kids, and so the cycle
    continues. If someone wanted to sponsor one child they
    could usually find


    a

    Quoted message said:

    way. The cost is very little, often no more than a dollar
    a day to change


    a

    Quoted message said:

    life, and while you, or I for that matter, may not be
    able to find that dollar at any time, there are those who
    can and do.

    I hope so.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    These are NOT my neighbors but foreigners living 1/2 a
    world away. The Jews were being slaughtered by a madman,
    not a disease caused by their own actions, beliefs and
    customs.

    Quoted message said:

    And they, too, were "in another country", far away, not
    someone's


    immediate

    Quoted message said:

    neighbour, and so on. The relative distance is no more now
    than it was then. In fact with today's media and
    communication systems they are


    closer.

    Which brings me back to the same thing - If they were taking
    my NEIGHBORS off to kill I would hide as many as possible
    since I wouldn't have to ship them around the world. You're
    comparing apples and oranges.

    Quoted message said:

    And there were those people then (and possibly even now)
    who thought that situation was caused by the people's own
    "actions, beliefs and customs". And while you may think
    you know the "causes", others take a more compassionate
    and humane approach.

    I don't have an extra $30 a month. We're already supporting
    several charities here where we live.
    --
    Kim Colonics to clean out your stuffed up @$$ Of all the
    toxic goodies you do not pass Globs of gunk and the mucus
    you store Parasites, flukes and worms galore So take a
    colonic so you can pass All these nasties from your
    paracitized @$$..... The most amazing BS artists there are:
    members.rogers.comindex.html
    geocities.comQuackery.html
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  5. Kim said:

    "Toby Joe" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Then what else can anyone do to help them? Anti-AIDS drugs
    are expensive. No nation can afford to treat every African
    who has AIDS.

    You said, "there is nothing anyone can do". Those who want
    to, can and do plenty.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I am disputing your claim that "Everyone knows there is
    nothing anyone could do".

    Who doesn't know? Someone under a rock with no TV or PC?

    There is plenty that people can do, there are many people
    who know that, and many who act on it.

    [snip]

    Quoted message said:

    What makes you think we're all rich and obese?

    Even the so-called "poor" of our nations, other than a very
    few, are wealthy beyond dreams compared with many in Africa.

    There was reference this week to a "pandemic" of obesity, in
    a Medscape article from which I posted an excerpt elsewhere
    on mha. It is not a "pandemic", it is an obscenity,
    particularly in context of some of the responses to the
    HIV/AIDS in Africa question.

    --
    costofwar.comcostofwar.com www.unicef.org/sowc02/g31.htm

  6. "Toby Joe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Kim" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Who doesn't know? Someone under a rock with no TV or PC?

    There is plenty that people can do, there are many people
    who know that, and many who act on it.

    Then tell us - WHY aren't they doing it? Could it be Africa
    has exhausted everyone with their endless problems?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    What makes you think we're all rich and obese?

    Quoted message said:

    Even the so-called "poor" of our nations, other than a
    very few, are wealthy beyond dreams compared with many
    in Africa.

    Well, we're very fortunate then - tell this to the thousands
    stuffed into the homeless shelters in all our cities. Tell
    this to the old couple who had their heat cut off because
    they're 3 months behind in their utility bills.......

    Quoted message said:

    There was reference this week to a "pandemic" of obesity,

    This doesn't mean the obese person is RICH. All it means is
    they eat the wrong foods and don't get enough exercise.
    Many poor Americans are very obese through ignorance and
    perhaps laziness.

    in a Medscape

    Quoted message said:

    article from which I posted an excerpt elsewhere on mha.
    It is not a "pandemic", it is an obscenity,

    I agree. They need to be taught how to eat properly and
    motivated to exercise more. How do we accomplish these
    two things?

    particularly in context of some of the

    Quoted message said:

    responses to the HIV/AIDS in Africa question.

    What's the connection between poor food choices, laziness
    and AIDS running wild in Africa? Slimming people down and
    teaching them portion control will

    all the victims there.
    --
    Kim Colonics to clean out your stuffed up @$$ Of all the
    toxic goodies you do not pass Globs of gunk and the mucus
    you store Parasites, flukes and worms galore So take a
    colonic so you can pass All these nasties from your
    paracitized @$$..... The most amazing BS artists there are:
    members.rogers.comindex.html
    geocities.comQuackery.html
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  7. Kim said:

    "Toby Joe" <[email hidden]> wrote

    What's the connection between poor food choices, laziness
    and AIDS running wild in Africa?

    In many cases, simply eating LESS of whatever they are
    eating and donating the money saved, would have the
    potential to save someone else's life and to extend their
    own, as well as reducing the toll on the Health System
    caused by obesity related diseases.

    --
    costofwar.comcostofwar.com www.unicef.org/sowc02/g31.htm

  8. Toby Joe said:
    Kim said:

    "Toby Joe" <[email hidden]> wrote

    What's the connection between poor food choices, laziness
    and AIDS running wild in Africa?

    In many cases, simply eating LESS of whatever they are
    eating and donating the money saved, would have the
    potential to save someone else's life and to extend their
    own, as well as reducing the toll on the Health System
    caused by obesity related diseases.

    The virus *is* callously indifferent to who is infected.
    There is no current cure or vaccine. The disease is spread
    by human behaviour.

    Until one of those factors changes dramatically the disease
    will continue to spread.
    --

    W_B

    Take out the G'RBAGE
    [email hidden]

  9. Quoted message said:
    Toby Joe said:
    Kim said:

    "Toby Joe" <[email hidden]> wrote

    What's the connection between poor food choices,
    laziness and AIDS running wild in Africa?

    In many cases, simply eating LESS of whatever they are
    eating and donating the money saved, would have the
    potential to save someone else's life and to extend their
    own, as well as reducing the toll on the Health System
    caused by obesity related diseases.

    The virus *is* callously indifferent to who is infected.
    There is no current cure or vaccine. The disease is spread
    by human behaviour.

    That you don't give a damn is your own business.

    Your attempt to cover the disparities in life situation
    which allow the virus to proliferate there, and failure to
    mention the more virulent strain of the virus to which
    southern Africans have been subjected, earns my contempt.

    Your blaming the victims disgusts me.

    Quoted message said:

    Until one of those factors changes dramatically the
    disease will continue to spread.

    The change that is required is a change in human
    consciousness.

    --
    costofwar.comcostofwar.com www.unicef.org/sowc02/g31.htm

  10. "Toby Joe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Kim said:

    "Toby Joe" <[email hidden]> wrote

    What's the connection between poor food choices,
    laziness and AIDS running wild in Africa?

    In many cases, simply eating LESS of whatever they are
    eating and donating the money saved, would have the
    potential to save someone else's life and to extend their
    own, as well as reducing the toll on the Health System
    caused by obesity related diseases.


    =====================
    Changing the behavior of the people in the advanced nations
    is as hard as changing the behavior of people in Africa. No
    one wants to CHANGE even if it's for their own good. As for
    the money - it keeps coming back to helping your own first.
    We have plenty of our own in need right here.
    --
    Kim Colonics to clean out your stuffed up @$$ Of all the
    toxic goodies you do not pass Globs of gunk and the mucus
    you store Parasites, flukes and worms galore So take a
    colonic so you can pass All these nasties from your
    paracitized @$$..... The most amazing BS artists there are:
    members.rogers.comindex.html
    geocities.comQuackery.html
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  11. "Toby Joe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Your attempt to cover the disparities in life situation
    which allow the virus to proliferate there,

    You don't seem to understand that it's NOT OUR FAULT this
    disease is spreading in Africa! IT'S NOT OUT FAULT. Unless
    they're willing to change their behavior nothing there will
    change. Why should we spend billions in aid until they are
    willing to change their behavior? That the men there beat
    the [censored] out of women who want them to use condoms hardly
    makes anyone

    WE should pay out of our own pockets?

    and failure to mention the more virulent strain

    Quoted message said:

    of the virus to which southern Africans have been
    subjected, earns my contempt.

    It earns my contempt that they're not doing MORE for
    themselves. Why not allow them to try and handle the problem
    on their own? Not all of Africa is remote bush where
    everyone is penniless. Perhaps they'll realize they have to
    take responsibility for their own actions and health. Why
    should I send them MONEY when I have to walk past homeless
    people right here in town because they can't live on the
    minimum wage? There are people here living in tents and
    boxes under the Bridge.

    Quoted message said:

    Your blaming the victims disgusts me.

    Disease disgusts me. Female genital mutilation disgusts me,
    cheating husbands disgust me, diseased hookers along their
    truck routes disgusts me as does the men who use them, the
    refusal to wear condoms disgusts me as does the beating of
    women by husbands - and most of all the rape of little girls
    disgusts me!

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Until one of those factors changes dramatically the
    disease will continue to spread.

    Quoted message said:

    The change that is required is a change in human
    consciousness.

    Yes,... THEIRS, not ours. We have our own problems right
    here which YOU refuse to acknowledge.
    --
    Kim Colonics to clean out your stuffed up @$$ Of all the
    toxic goodies you do not pass Globs of gunk and the mucus
    you store Parasites, flukes and worms galore So take a
    colonic so you can pass All these nasties from your
    paracitized @$$..... The most amazing BS artists there are:
    members.rogers.comindex.html
    geocities.comQuackery.html
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  12. Toby Joe said:
    Quoted message said:
    Toby Joe said:

    "Kim" <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > "Toby Joe" <[email hidden]> wrote
    >
    > What's the connection between poor food choices,
    > laziness and AIDS running wild in Africa?

    In many cases, simply eating LESS of whatever they are
    eating and donating the money saved, would have the
    potential to save someone else's life and to extend
    their own, as well as reducing the toll on the Health
    System caused by obesity related diseases.

    The virus *is* callously indifferent to who is infected.
    There is no current cure or vaccine. The disease is
    spread by human behaviour.

    That you don't give a damn is your own business.

    Didn't say that. Just stating the facts.

    Quoted message said:


    Your attempt to cover the disparities in life situation
    which allow the virus to proliferate there, and failure to
    mention the more virulent strain of the virus to which
    southern Africans have been subjected, earns my contempt.

    Reference for your statement that S.African HIV strain
    is more virulent please. As for your contempt, I have
    no comment.

    Quoted message said:


    Your blaming the victims disgusts me.


    Disease is an equal opportunity offender. Didn't blame
    victims.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Until one of those factors changes dramatically the
    disease will continue to spread.

    The change that is required is a change in human
    consciousness.

    Changing "human consciousness" does not cure disease.
    Without a drastic change in either a cure, vaccine, or human
    behaviour the disease will continue to spread unabated.

    --

    W_B

    Take out the G'RBAGE
    [email hidden]

  13. "Kim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Toby Joe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Your attempt to cover the disparities in life situation
    which allow the virus to proliferate there,

    You don't seem to understand that it's NOT OUR FAULT this
    disease is spreading in Africa! IT'S NOT OUT FAULT. Unless
    they're willing to


    change

    Quoted message said:

    their behavior nothing there will change. Why should we
    spend billions in aid until they are willing to change
    their behavior? That the men there beat the [censored] out of
    women who want them to use condoms hardly makes


    anyone

    Quoted message said:

    WE should pay out of our own pockets?

    and failure to mention the more virulent strain

    Quoted message said:

    of the virus to which southern Africans have been
    subjected, earns my contempt.

    It earns my contempt that they're not doing MORE for
    themselves. Why not allow them to try and handle the
    problem on their own? Not all of Africa


    is

    Quoted message said:

    remote bush where everyone is penniless. Perhaps they'll
    realize they


    have

    Quoted message said:

    to take responsibility for their own actions and health.
    Why should I


    send

    Quoted message said:

    them MONEY when I have to walk past homeless people right
    here in town because they can't live on the minimum wage?
    There are people here


    living

    Quoted message said:

    in tents and boxes under the Bridge.

    Quoted message said:

    Your blaming the victims disgusts me.

    Disease disgusts me. Female genital mutilation disgusts
    me, cheating husbands disgust me, diseased hookers along
    their truck routes disgusts me as does the men who use
    them, the refusal to wear condoms disgusts me as does the
    beating of women by husbands - and most of all the rape of
    little girls disgusts me!

    Disease disgusts me. Genital mutilation disgusts me,
    cheating people disgust me, the refusal to wear condoms
    disgusts me as does the beating of people by other people -
    and most of all the rape of little girls children me!
    Charities that take most of the money disgust me.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Until one of those factors changes dramatically the
    disease will continue to spread.

    Quoted message said:

    The change that is required is a change in human
    consciousness.

    It's not their fault, why blame the innocent
    children/people?.

    Quoted message said:

    Yes,... THEIRS, not ours. We have our own problems right
    here which YOU refuse to acknowledge.

    We cause most of their problems.

    Quoted message said:

    --
    Kim Colonics to clean out your stuffed up @$$ Of all the
    toxic goodies you do not pass Globs of gunk and the mucus
    you store Parasites, flukes and worms galore So take a
    colonic so you can pass All these nasties from your
    paracitized @$$..... The most amazing BS artists there
    are: members.rogers.comindex.html
    geocities.comQuackery.html
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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