Nothing Personal

Friday said:

Being a cyclist, and this being a cycling newsgroup I understand the
point you're trying to make. However, in this case I'd have to say that
I have some sympathy with the car driver. As has been pointed out rural
driveways tend to be more like roads, it was dark, nearly midnight, and
in all probability the horse was riderless and had escaped from it's
yard. It's obvious you don't know much about horses so I'm not going to
argue with you about horse behavior but I'd say the horse was as much to
blame as the driver. It's a bit like blaming a car driver for hitting a
kangaroo on a straight section of road.

Friday- Hide quoted text -

.... isn't it so, that if you hit 'stock' on a road whilst driving, you
are legally liable, even if the fence is falling over? The driver
(relieved of the feeling of negligence by moral outrage and his
insurance policy) might have to pay for the dead horse as well as the
damage to his car.

donga

In aus.bicycle on Sat, 23 Jun 2007 13:59:05 -0700

Donga said:

... isn't it so, that if you hit 'stock' on a road whilst driving, you
are legally liable, even if the fence is falling over? The driver
(relieved of the feeling of negligence by moral outrage and his
insurance policy) might have to pay for the dead horse as well as the
damage to his car.

I think that depends. It used to be that escaped stock was like
escaped water - no one responsible - but I think that's been changed
by legislation and/or precedent in some states. Not having much luck
either way on austlii though.

There is a requirement for someone grazing the long paddock to put out
signs and that might changed liability for example.

Zebee

In aus.bicycle on 23 Jun 2007 21:45:29 GMT

Zebee Johnstone said:

I think that depends. It used to be that escaped stock was like
escaped water - no one responsible - but I think that's been changed
by legislation and/or precedent in some states. Not having much luck
either way on austlii though.

http://www.racq.com.au/images/documents/Policy_Liability_for_straying_stock.pdf
says that only NSW and Qld still keep to that common law.

Zebee

Zebee Johnstone said:

In aus.bicycle on 23 Jun 2007 21:45:29 GMT

Zebee Johnstone said:

I think that depends. It used to be that escaped stock was like
escaped water - no one responsible - but I think that's been changed
by legislation and/or precedent in some states. Not having much luck
either way on austlii though.

http://www.racq.com.au/images/documents/Policy_Liability_for_straying...
says that only NSW and Qld still keep to that common law.

Zebee

Letting those bloody drivers off again!

Despite what the law says, the average driver still feels that nothing is his/her fault and the laws only apply in convenient.

One must only stand near a school crossing to realise that. If the topic comes up on talkback radio, then the drivers will batter the station with outrage that they shold have to slow down to protect children - as if the kids were important or something...

SCotty

quote='Donga'On Jun 24 said:

In aus.bicycle on 23 Jun 2007 21:45:29 GMT

Zebee Johnstone said:

I think that depends. It used to be that escaped stock was like
escaped water - no one responsible - but I think that's been changed
by legislation and/or precedent in some states. Not having much luck
either way on austlii though.

racq.com.auPolicy Liability for strayingOpen ↗...
says that only NSW and Qld still keep to that common law.

Zebee

Letting those bloody drivers off again![/QUOTE]

Donga said:

... isn't it so, that if you hit 'stock' on a road whilst driving, you
are legally liable, even if the fence is falling over? The driver
(relieved of the feeling of negligence by moral outrage and his
insurance policy) might have to pay for the dead horse as well as the
damage to his car.

donga

Whilst that was certainly the case once upon a time, under the Common
Law, it is now statutorily changed in every jurisdiction I'm aware of.

--

scotty72 said:

Despite what the law says, the average driver still feels that nothing is his/her fault and the laws only apply in convenient.

One must only stand near a school crossing to realise that. If the topic comes up on talkback radio, then the drivers will batter the station with outrage that they shold have to slow down to protect children - as if the kids were important or something...

SCotty

On the subject of school crossings .... I think a lot of the outrage is down to the fact that the times are a joke. The majority of kids are picked up by their parents and don't go anywhere near the crossings and the few kids that actually do use the crossing have usually well and truly left the area by 3:30pm at the latest.

In fact, at one of the local schools in our area (rural) the school is deserted, the access gates are padlocked and the teacher gone by 3:00pm. You can imagine how people feel about having to crawl through there at 40km/hr under those circumstances.

I think it would be better if we had a system that enabled each school to control the speed zone times around their school. That way the times would reflect reality - don't know how you would set it up, though.

On 2007-06-24, matagi (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

scotty72 said:

Despite what the law says, the average driver still feels that nothing
is his/her fault and the laws only apply in convenient.

One must only stand near a school crossing to realise that. If the
topic comes up on talkback radio, then the drivers will batter the
station with outrage that they shold have to slow down to protect
children - as if the kids were important or something...

On the subject of school crossings .... I think a lot of the outrage is
down to the fact that the times are a joke. The majority of kids are
picked up by their parents and don't go anywhere near the crossings and
the few kids that actually do use the crossing have usually well and
truly left the area by 3:30pm at the latest.

Heh. A mere... 15 years ago, I was leaving the lower grades of high
school at 4:30 on some days. I agree, the times are a joke -- they
only extend to 4pm and not 6:00pm when some kids are going home.

Quoted message said:

In fact, at one of the local schools in our area (rural) the school is
deserted, the access gates are padlocked and the teacher gone by
3:00pm. You can imagine how people feel about having to crawl through
there at 40km/hr under those circumstances.

Nope. Afraid I still don't have any sympathy for them. The limit
should be 30km/h all the time, afterall.

Funnily enough, I also don't have much sympathy for the idiots for
which this Age article are trying to garner sympathy from me:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/thousands-risk-driving-ban/2007/06/23/1182019436608.html

Quoted message said:

I think it would be better if we had a system that enabled each school
to control the speed zone times around their school. That way the
times would reflect reality - don't know how you would set it up,
though.

Right. As soon as you come up with an affordable solution, be sure to
mention it to the authorities.

--
TimC
Look - a diversion! It's shiny! -- Daniel Stone

Whilst I understand your point, I should point out a couple of things you may have overlooked.

I understand that in small rural schools and even local suburban schools, the locals may know the school is deserted by a certain time. However, if you allowed each school to have its own times, I can see a new excuse industry being born - "How are drivers supposed to know all the times." Even now, all schools operate the same zone hours and the standard bleat from drivers is - "I didn't know it was that time" (it's only been like that for 10-15 years...and only the most expensive modern cars are fitted with those luxury chronometer device gazmatrons, aren't they?)

I even heard the other day on the radio some idiot claiming the new flashing lights weren't bright enough - that was why he sped. What does he want, a the principal to run out and slap each driver in the face as the enter the zone to wake them out of their drivers' coma.

In many schools, particularly high schools, kids may be arriving early/ leaving late (for extra classes, choir practise etc.). They too need the protection of 40km/h zones. Before you say "hey, they are high school students... they should..." - NO! they shouldn't (well they should but, they don't). Students at my school are too busy gossiping, listening to i-pods watching their 3-gen phones etc. as they amble across the main road. It's what teens do - remember when you too were bullet proof.

So, whilst I agree with you that the rules don't allow for common sense - we have to recognise that when the average person becomes a driver, common sense goes out the window and they become a selfish, slobbering idiot (that can include me, at times - which is why I avoid driving where and when possible).

Just think of it this way,

Even if all the 30 secs you lose by slowing down add up to a week over your commuting life - is that extra week of life worth killing a kid for? I doubt most people are that selfish (unfortunately, some are).

Ideally, common sense would tell each driver - hmm, it's a school day, I see little people running around in uniforms - I'll slow down and be careful.

Do you ever see that happening?

Scotty

matagi said:

On the subject of school crossings .... I think a lot of the outrage is down to the fact that the times are a joke. The majority of kids are picked up by their parents and don't go anywhere near the crossings and the few kids that actually do use the crossing have usually well and truly left the area by 3:30pm at the latest.

In fact, at one of the local schools in our area (rural) the school is deserted, the access gates are padlocked and the teacher gone by 3:00pm. You can imagine how people feel about having to crawl through there at 40km/hr under those circumstances.

I think it would be better if we had a system that enabled each school to control the speed zone times around their school. That way the times would reflect reality - don't know how you would set it up, though.

"scotty72" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Enough to realise that if you weren't fanging up a driveway you'd be
able to stop in time. Or if you hit an object at upto about 10km/h, the
bumper ought to absorb the damage.

Hmmm.

Imagine you are driving home late at night. 100kmh country road. You come
upo to your rural driveway, which has a roomy entrance. Turn off the road at
30-40kmh. Suddenly out of the road side shrubbery a horse appears, that you
had not seen (haven't brought in the laws to compel reflectors on the beasts
yet). You hit the brakes, but hit the horse at, maybe 10-20kmh. It's legs
get broken, it falls onto your car bonnet, struggles to roll off, then
thrashes about trying to run away.

Do you think this would be a trifle distressing? Should you be blamed as a
hoon driver? Why, with little real evidence, do you castigate the poor
driver?

Me, I'm no defender of crappy city drivers, nor speeding country hoons. But
a country road at midnight on the approach to a person's own driveway is a
different world. Throw in something unpredictable and anything can happen to
the most careful of drivers.
--
Cheers
Peter

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*)

Mate,

I lived for a time just outside a little town called Childers Qld and at a different time for 6 months near a town called Kuttabul (near MacKay).

Both had accesses off 100km/h roads and for the very reason you suggest (not knowing what to expect) I would slow right down when approaching.

My attitude changed one night on the way home from Mackay when, as a bullet proof 20 ish year old, I cleaned up a wallaby.

Wallaby dead, bonnet damaged, me [censored] scared. Should I have blamed the wallaby for doing what wallabies do (they bounce around the country-side). I could have aked that all young wallabies attend traffic awareness classes to stop them from hitting cars.

However, I realised that it is the motorist who must take responsibility when dealling with nature and its beasts, not the other way around - no matter how much we bleat that motorists are golden.

Scotty

PeteSig said:

"scotty72" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Enough to realise that if you weren't fanging up a driveway you'd be
able to stop in time. Or if you hit an object at upto about 10km/h, the
bumper ought to absorb the damage.

Hmmm.

Imagine you are driving home late at night. 100kmh country road. You come
upo to your rural driveway, which has a roomy entrance. Turn off the road at
30-40kmh. Suddenly out of the road side shrubbery a horse appears, that you
had not seen (haven't brought in the laws to compel reflectors on the beasts
yet). You hit the brakes, but hit the horse at, maybe 10-20kmh. It's legs
get broken, it falls onto your car bonnet, struggles to roll off, then
thrashes about trying to run away.

Do you think this would be a trifle distressing? Should you be blamed as a
hoon driver? Why, with little real evidence, do you castigate the poor
driver?

Me, I'm no defender of crappy city drivers, nor speeding country hoons. But
a country road at midnight on the approach to a person's own driveway is a
different world. Throw in something unpredictable and anything can happen to
the most careful of drivers.
--
Cheers
Peter

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*)

matagi said:

I think it would be better if we had a system that enabled each school
to control the speed zone times around their school. That way the
times would reflect reality - don't know how you would set it up,
though.

Basically, cagers are stupid and can not handle variable conditions.

PeteSig said:

Should you be blamed as a hoon driver?

Yes, all the "farmers" in my family slow down when they enter property
with stock, any stock, theirs or neighbours.

TimC said:

And now the paper is reporting local sightings of the black panther.

I thought they were an American organisation.

Theo

scotty72 said:

Enough to realise that if you weren't fanging up a driveway you'd be
able to stop in time. Or if you hit an object at upto about 10km/h,
the bumper ought to absorb the damage.

Did you mean that piece of plastic trim under the grill?

Theo

matagi said:

On the subject of school crossings .... I think a lot of the outrage
is down to the fact that the times are a joke. The majority of kids
are picked up by their parents and don't go anywhere near the
crossings and the few kids that actually do use the crossing have
usually well and truly left the area by 3:30pm at the latest.

In fact, at one of the local schools in our area (rural) the school is
deserted, the access gates are padlocked and the teacher gone by
3:00pm. You can imagine how people feel about having to crawl through
there at 40km/hr under those circumstances.

We have one not far from work where the time goes to 4pm but the crosswalk
attendants are gone by 3:45.

Quoted message said:

I think it would be better if we had a system that enabled each school
to control the speed zone times around their school. That way the
times would reflect reality - don't know how you would set it up,
though.

Manually. The school turns it on and a staff member stays at the school till
all the kids have gone, then turns it off and goes home. I'll lay odds the
zones will finish by 3:05 if school's out at 3.

Theo

And how will a teacher know if all the kids have left?

My school has 1100+ kids.

Am I to be responsible for accounting for each of them.

Sounds like your 30secs is more important to you than kids lives. Says a lot, doesn't it?

Scotty

quote='Theo Bekkers'matagi said:

On the subject of school crossings .... I think a lot of the outrage
is down to the fact that the times are a joke. The majority of kids
are picked up by their parents and don't go anywhere near the
crossings and the few kids that actually do use the crossing have
usually well and truly left the area by 3:30pm at the latest.

In fact, at one of the local schools in our area (rural) the school is
deserted, the access gates are padlocked and the teacher gone by
3:00pm. You can imagine how people feel about having to crawl through
there at 40km/hr under those circumstances.

We have one not far from work where the time goes to 4pm but the crosswalk
attendants are gone by 3:45.

Quoted message said:

I think it would be better if we had a system that enabled each school
to control the speed zone times around their school. That way the
times would reflect reality - don't know how you would set it up,
though.

Manually. The school turns it on and a staff member stays at the school till
all the kids have gone, then turns it off and goes home. I'll lay odds the
zones will finish by 3:05 if school's out at 3.

Theo[/QUOTE]

scotty72 said:

And how will a teacher know if all the kids have left?

My school has 1100+ kids.

Am I to be responsible for accounting for each of them.

Of course. That's your job, isn't it?

Quoted message said:

Sounds like your 30secs is more important to you than kids lives. Says
a lot, doesn't it?

Well, I think my 30 seconds is more important than your 30 seconds. If those
kids are in your school, yes you are responsible for them.

How do I know that all the kids have left the school by 4 pm when the zone
ends? Should the zone be 24 hours? How do I know there aren't any kids
lurking on the kerb 100 metres outside the school zone? Should we extend the
school zone to 24 hours/all roads in the country? Will the kiddies then be
safe?

So you're a school-teacher? That explains a few things.... Hehe.

Theo

scotty72 said:

I understand that in small rural schools and even local suburban
schools, the locals may know the school is deserted by a certain time.
However, if you allowed each school to have its own times, I can see a
new excuse industry being born - "How are drivers supposed to know all
the times." Even now, all schools operate the same zone hours and the
standard bleat from drivers is - "I didn't know it was that time"
(it's only been like that for 10-15 years...and only the most
expensive modern cars are fitted with those luxury chronometer device
gazmatrons, aren't they?)

Well, the only motorcycle I have ever owned that came standard with a
chronometer gazmatron, I bought six months ago. Looking at your watch on a
motorcycle doesn't work too well. I leave work when I'm done for the day, or
when I feel like leaving, rather than a standard time, so when I get to a
school zone I have to think "[censored], what time is it". As I have no school-age
children, I also have no idea of whether today is a school day or not. There
are about 70 days in the year that are work days but not school days. The
first I know that I guessed wrong is that some idiot is blasting his or her
horn at me and I realise there are no children and no crosswalk attendants,
and I'm doing 35 in a 60 zone with an annoyed school teacher up my bum who
doesn't understand that I don't know it's not a school day.

Quoted message said:

In many schools, particularly high schools, kids may be arriving
early/ leaving late (for extra classes, choir practise etc.). They
too need the protection of 40km/h zones. Before you say "hey, they
are high school students... they should..." - NO! they shouldn't
(well they should but, they don't). Students at my school are too
busy gossiping, listening to i-pods watching their 3-gen phones etc.
as they amble across the main road. It's what teens do - remember
when you too were bullet proof.

Then it's time you trained them a little. Have you considered that the 40 k
zones and the crosswalk attendants may give the little high school kiddies
the idea that their safety is not also their concern?

Quoted message said:

So, whilst I agree with you that the rules don't allow for common
sense - we have to recognise that when the average person becomes a
driver, common sense goes out the window and they become a selfish,
slobbering idiot (that can include me, at times - which is why I
avoid driving where and when possible).

I really don't think I become a selfish slobbering idiot when I start a
motor vehicle (maybe I'm one all the time), nor do I think most people do. I
do think that a law that makes little sense to the average driver, like
roadworks signs when there are no roadworks, or 40km/h school zones that
persist for an hour after the second-last child has gone, and the crosswalk
attendants have gone home 30 minutes ago, will be ignored by a lot more
people than if there was a 40 km/h lit sign outside schools for the period
the kids are arriving and leaving as I have seen in Victoria.

Quoted message said:

Even if all the 30 secs you lose by slowing down add up to a week over
your commuting life - is that extra week of life worth killing a kid
for? I doubt most people are that selfish (unfortunately, some are).

Of course not, but wasn't that a really stupid question. Next time you are
driving down a six lane road, just think, there might be a child living in
one of those houses, and they might be playing with a ball in the driveway.
Shouldn't you slow down now, and is 40 slow enough? Is your journey worth
killing a kid for?

Theo

In aus.bicycle on Tue, 26 Jun 2007 14:51:16 +0800

Theo Bekkers said:

Of course not, but wasn't that a really stupid question. Next time you are
driving down a six lane road, just think, there might be a child living in
one of those houses, and they might be playing with a ball in the driveway.
Shouldn't you slow down now, and is 40 slow enough? Is your journey worth
killing a kid for?

I'm sure Scotty only rides a bicycle, and would never be one of those
evil drivers.

Of course it's perfectly possible to kill someone if you hit them with
a bicycle, so I'm sure he never does more than 10kmh on the bicycle
either.

Nice to know an upright citizen is so careful of the children.

Zebee