Not enough resistance from Kurt Kinetic Road Machine

Woland99 said:

I bought Road Machine few days ago - this is my first trainer so
perhaps they
are all like that but I cannot get enough resistance out of it. I have
MTB with
44 largest gear on chainring and 11/34 rear cog. Not sure about
crankarms -
probably 170-175. Standard MTB wheels. I can put it in second to
highest
gear and resistance is sortta like pedalling on flat dirt road. It
never gets
high enough to stand on the saddle, Never gets nearly as hard as doing
a
mild hill. And being quiet? Right... at that point this thing is
wailing like a
banshee.
Is there another trainer out there that has higher resistance ?
Something that would be more like a stationary bike?

At your weight rollers will have more than enough resistance. And fun
too!

Joseph

email hidden said:

Woland99 said:

I bought Road Machine few days ago - this is my first trainer so
perhaps they
are all like that but I cannot get enough resistance out of it. I have
MTB with
44 largest gear on chainring and 11/34 rear cog. Not sure about
crankarms -
probably 170-175. Standard MTB wheels. I can put it in second to
highest
gear and resistance is sortta like pedalling on flat dirt road. It
never gets
high enough to stand on the saddle, Never gets nearly as hard as doing
a
mild hill. And being quiet? Right... at that point this thing is
wailing like a
banshee.
Is there another trainer out there that has higher resistance ?
Something that would be more like a stationary bike?

At your weight rollers will have more than enough resistance. And fun
too!

Joseph

Well I thought about rollers - I could definitely use better sense of
balance. And there is definite setup/storage simplicity. And they
work
with front wheel speed sensor. But the concept is a bit scary - what
happens
if you run out of the roller sideways? You crash thru the garage
door?
Any recommendation for good rollers?
What diameter should I get?

JT

Woland99 said:

On Mar 2, 11:24 am, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

On Mar 2, 6:05 pm, Woland99 <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I bought Road Machine few days ago - this is my first trainer so
perhaps they
are all like that but I cannot get enough resistance out of it. I have
MTB with
44 largest gear on chainring and 11/34 rear cog. Not sure about
crankarms -
probably 170-175. Standard MTB wheels. I can put it in second to
highest
gear and resistance is sortta like pedalling on flat dirt road. It
never gets
high enough to stand on the saddle, Never gets nearly as hard as doing
a
mild hill. And being quiet? Right... at that point this thing is
wailing like a
banshee.
Is there another trainer out there that has higher resistance ?
Something that would be more like a stationary bike?

Quoted message said:

At your weight rollers will have more than enough resistance. And fun
too!

Quoted message said:

Joseph

Well I thought about rollers - I could definitely use better sense of
balance. And there is definite setup/storage simplicity. And they
work
with front wheel speed sensor. But the concept is a bit scary - what
happens
if you run out of the roller sideways? You crash thru the garage
door?
Any recommendation for good rollers?
What diameter should I get?

JT

If you ride off the side, you just fall over, you don't go zooming
forward.

It's best to learn with them in a doorframe or narrow hallway so you
can stick your elbow out to lean against a wall if you need to. With a
little practice you can ride out in the open. I use mine next to a
wall.

I have some rather expensive ones with built-in inertial resistance
from trutrainer.com . I got them for the good quality and smooth
running and inertia which makes them more fluid that regular rollers
which can be somewhat jerky if you don't have a very smooth style and/
or have lots of resistance due to weight.

The resistance of rollers has been discussed a bit previously (search
google groups) but it boils down to rider weight and roller diameter.
Anybody over 200 who isn't a pro should opt for the largest rollers
they can find. Small rollers and high weight makes so much resistance
that it is impossible to take it easy which can be a problem, and it
exacerbates the jerkiness. Kind of like riding a mountain bike in deep
mud. Difficult to be smooth.

Joseph

email hidden said:

Woland99 said:

On Mar 2, 11:24 am, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Mar 2, 6:05 pm, Woland99 <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I bought Road Machine few days ago - this is my first trainer so
> perhaps they
> are all like that but I cannot get enough resistance out of it. I have
> MTB with
> 44 largest gear on chainring and 11/34 rear cog. Not sure about
> crankarms -
> probably 170-175. Standard MTB wheels. I can put it in second to
> highest
> gear and resistance is sortta like pedalling on flat dirt road. It
> never gets
> high enough to stand on the saddle, Never gets nearly as hard as doing
> a
> mild hill. And being quiet? Right... at that point this thing is
> wailing like a
> banshee.
> Is there another trainer out there that has higher resistance ?
> Something that would be more like a stationary bike?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

At your weight rollers will have more than enough resistance. And fun
too!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Joseph

Quoted message said:

Well I thought about rollers - I could definitely use better sense of
balance. And there is definite setup/storage simplicity. And they
work
with front wheel speed sensor. But the concept is a bit scary - what
happens
if you run out of the roller sideways? You crash thru the garage
door?
Any recommendation for good rollers?
What diameter should I get?

Quoted message said:

JT

If you ride off the side, you just fall over, you don't go zooming
forward.

It's best to learn with them in a doorframe or narrow hallway so you
can stick your elbow out to lean against a wall if you need to. With a
little practice you can ride out in the open. I use mine next to a
wall.

I have some rather expensive ones with built-in inertial resistance
from trutrainer.com . I got them for the good quality and smooth
running and inertia which makes them more fluid that regular rollers
which can be somewhat jerky if you don't have a very smooth style and/
or have lots of resistance due to weight.

The resistance of rollers has been discussed a bit previously (search
google groups) but it boils down to rider weight and roller diameter.
Anybody over 200 who isn't a pro should opt for the largest rollers
they can find. Small rollers and high weight makes so much resistance
that it is impossible to take it easy which can be a problem, and it
exacerbates the jerkiness. Kind of like riding a mountain bike in deep
mud. Difficult to be smooth.

To answer the original question, I am not familiar with the brand, but
most training stands can offer enough resistance to make it almost
impossible to pedal -- even the old $60 Performance re-branded stand I
have in the basement. If your stand has a spring-loaded roller that
rests against the back wheel, make sure the spring is fully engaged
and exerting maximum pressure. My cheap-o stand, for example, has kind
of a half way point -- which I think is a defect and not a feature.

As for rollers, I have those, too, and have been riding the same pair
for 24 years-- a $99 pair of Tackx that have fans for resistance.
Great rollers, and when anything breaks, the company just sends me
replacements. They look like robo-rollers with mismatched end-caps,
replaced bearings, sweat-rusted rails -- truly loved rollers. Before
those, I had some late '70s Palo Alto Bike "Paris Roubaix" rollers
with sintered bushings. Those things put out a 100hz standing wave
that almost brought down my old apartment building. My current set
producess a fairly loud whooshing from the fans. Rollers are fun and
give you a good work out, but if you are looking for something that
allows you to stand and mash big gears, then a training stand is for
you. I can stand on my rollers, but I am not gonig to sprint for any
imaginary finish (not without risk of personal injury). I use both --
exclusively a stand now because I have a broken leg. Stands give you
the ability to ride with a variety of personal injuries.-- Jay Beattie.

Dans le message de
news:[email hidden],
Jay Beattie <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

To answer the original question, I am not familiar with the brand, but
most training stands can offer enough resistance to make it almost
impossible to pedal -- even the old $60 Performance re-branded stand I
have in the basement. If your stand has a spring-loaded roller that
rests against the back wheel, make sure the spring is fully engaged
and exerting maximum pressure. My cheap-o stand, for example, has kind
of a half way point -- which I think is a defect and not a feature.

You may have found the "feature" my trainer suffers from. This Elite grabs
the axle, then allows you to lower on the pivot until you are in contact
with the roller. They claim that personal weight that bears will reflect
road conditions. I am starting to doubt that very much. As I stretch or
change positition on the saddle, the tire lifts from the roller, and I spin
in space, no resistance.

I need to get to the bottom of this, but if this feature can't be
"improved", I think this trainer is going to go away. Thanks for your
comment.

--
Bonne route !

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

Quoted message said:

Jay Beattie <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

To answer the original question, I am not familiar with the brand, but
most training stands can offer enough resistance to make it almost
impossible to pedal -- even the old $60 Performance re-branded stand I
have in the basement. If your stand has a spring-loaded roller that
rests against the back wheel, make sure the spring is fully engaged
and exerting maximum pressure. My cheap-o stand, for example, has kind
of a half way point -- which I think is a defect and not a feature.

Sandy said:

You may have found the "feature" my trainer suffers from. This Elite grabs
the axle, then allows you to lower on the pivot until you are in contact
with the roller. They claim that personal weight that bears will reflect
road conditions. I am starting to doubt that very much. As I stretch or
change positition on the saddle, the tire lifts from the roller, and I spin
in space, no resistance.

I need to get to the bottom of this, but if this feature can't be
"improved", I think this trainer is going to go away. Thanks for your
comment.

A common diagnosis here is, "They improved it until it didn't work".

(this is not to disparage your particular equipment, merely to note a
trend)
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Jay Beattie <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

To answer the original question, I am not familiar with the brand, but
most training stands can offer enough resistance to make it almost
impossible to pedal -- even the old $60 Performance re-branded stand I
have in the basement. If your stand has a spring-loaded roller that
rests against the back wheel, make sure the spring is fully engaged
and exerting maximum pressure. My cheap-o stand, for example, has kind
of a half way point -- which I think is a defect and not a feature.

Sandy said:

You may have found the "feature" my trainer suffers from. This Elite
grabs the axle, then allows you to lower on the pivot until you are in
contact with the roller. They claim that personal weight that bears
will reflect road conditions. I am starting to doubt that very much.
As I stretch or change positition on the saddle, the tire lifts from
the roller, and I spin in space, no resistance.

I need to get to the bottom of this, but if this feature can't be
"improved", I think this trainer is going to go away. Thanks for your
comment.

A common diagnosis here is, "They improved it until it didn't work".

(this is not to disparage your particular equipment, merely to note a
trend)

I don't mean to disparage either, but I'd agree as far as trainers go,
magnetic trainers are so simple, cheap, reliable, compact and quiet, I
don't know what there is to improve.

Sandy said:

They <Elite> claim that personal weight that bears will reflect
road conditions.  I am starting to doubt that very much.

I need to get to the bottom of this, but if this feature can't be
"improved", I think this trainer is going to go away.  Thanks for your
comment.

It's not you Sandy, it's a defect in the Elite design. Sounds good,
looks good, but it just dosen't work except for smooth seated
spinning. I replaced my Elite with a Kurt and could not be happier.

Bon chance,

Mark

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jay Beattie <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> To answer the original question, I am not familiar with the brand, but
> most training stands can offer enough resistance to make it almost
> impossible to pedal -- even the old $60 Performance re-branded stand I
> have in the basement. If your stand has a spring-loaded roller that
> rests against the back wheel, make sure the spring is fully engaged
> and exerting maximum pressure. My cheap-o stand, for example, has kind
> of a half way point -- which I think is a defect and not a feature.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sandy said:

You may have found the "feature" my trainer suffers from. This Elite
grabs the axle, then allows you to lower on the pivot until you are
in contact with the roller. They claim that personal weight that
bears will reflect road conditions. I am starting to doubt that very
much. As I stretch or change positition on the saddle, the tire
lifts from the roller, and I spin in space, no resistance.
I need to get to the bottom of this, but if this feature can't be
"improved", I think this trainer is going to go away. Thanks for
your comment.

Quoted message said:

A Muzi said:

A common diagnosis here is, "They improved it until it didn't work".
(this is not to disparage your particular equipment, merely to note a
trend)

Peter Cole said:

I don't mean to disparage either, but I'd agree as far as trainers go,
magnetic trainers are so simple, cheap, reliable, compact and quiet, I
don't know what there is to improve.

Well, how about the classic, "The [censored] we sold you last season is junk.
Here's the new model." PMP cranks come to mind, for example.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 02 Mar 2008 18:39:53 -0600, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Well, how about the classic, "The [censored] we sold you last season is junk.
Here's the new model." PMP cranks come to mind, for example.

Dear Andrew,

John Pinkerton: "Think of a new idea in bicycle design and someone
will have already invented it, probably in the nineteenth century."

http://www.sawheelmen.com/uploads/Myths___Milestones_in_Bicycle_Evolution.pdf

1983 PMP crank ad:
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Italy/PMP_crk_ad.htm

1899 crank patent:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=198oAAAAEBAJ&pg=PP1&dq=d31008&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Woland99 said:

I bought Road Machine few days ago - this is my first trainer so
perhaps they
are all like that but I cannot get enough resistance out of it. I have
MTB with
44 largest gear on chainring and 11/34 rear cog. Not sure about
crankarms -
probably 170-175. Standard MTB wheels. I can put it in second to
highest
gear and resistance is sortta like pedalling on flat dirt road. It
never gets
high enough to stand on the saddle, Never gets nearly as hard as doing
a
mild hill. And being quiet? Right... at that point this thing is
wailing like a
banshee.
Is there another trainer out there that has higher resistance ?
Something that would be more like a stationary bike?

Trainer's fine; you need more speed.

Here's some data showing how much resistance various trainers give you
for whatever speed you put in:
http://www.geocities.com/almost_fast/trainerpower/

Maybe try bigger gears, bigger tires (or a road bike)?

Woland99 said:

I bought Road Machine few days ago - this is my first trainer so
perhaps they
are all like that but I cannot get enough resistance out of it. I have
MTB with
44 largest gear on chainring and 11/34 rear cog. Not sure about
crankarms -
probably 170-175. Standard MTB wheels. I can put it in second to
highest
gear and resistance is sortta like pedalling on flat dirt road. It
never gets
high enough to stand on the saddle, Never gets nearly as hard as doing
a
mild hill. And being quiet? Right... at that point this thing is
wailing like a
banshee.
Is there another trainer out there that has higher resistance ?
Something that would be more like a stationary bike?

The Kurt Kinetics are supposed to equal wind resistance of pedaling on a
flat road. So you put your bike in longest gear and pedal. Fast.
-----
You may think it's too easy, but then if you use a trainer with too much
loading on the wheel, that's bad for your knees.

If you want a big loading, get on a squat machine--but then, you
see,,,,, nobody gets on a squat machine and does heavy squats for 30
minutes. Because if they did, they'd bomb out their knees in a matter of
a couple weeks, and spend months recovering.

The noise is likely partly your tires.
Although no trainer I have ever heard was what I'd call "quiet", the
Kurts are among the least-noisy ones.
~

Woland99 said:

I bought Road Machine few days ago - this is my first trainer so
perhaps they
are all like that but I cannot get enough resistance out of it. I have
MTB with
44 largest gear on chainring and 11/34 rear cog. Not sure about
crankarms -
probably 170-175. Standard MTB wheels. I can put it in second to
highest
gear and resistance is sortta like pedalling on flat dirt road. It
never gets
high enough to stand on the saddle, Never gets nearly as hard as doing
a
mild hill. And being quiet? Right... at that point this thing is
wailing like a
banshee.
Is there another trainer out there that has higher resistance ?
Something that would be more like a stationary bike?

I own one of these trainers; bought it about 5 years ago and used it
only sparingly until ~2 months ago when I came down with a running
injury (stress fracture) and the trainer was all I could tolerate.
Since then I've been beating the [censored] out of it.

As far as I'm concerned, this is about the best there is for a
stationary trainer. If you're maxing it out, then either it's broken
or you've got it set up wrong.

I'll assume you've got a semi-smooth tire on there, maybe 26x1.5"?
According to this table (thanks again to the late, great Sheldon):
http://sheldonbrown.com/cyclecomp_f.html
this would be like having a 44 * (1985/2087) = 41.8 tooth ring on a
700c bike with 23c tires.

That should be plenty of top end gear with an 11t cog in back. On my
road bike, I spend most of my time in the 39x15 and the 39x14. Maybe
you just have a really low cadence? I usually ride around 95-100 RPM,
and right now the 39x14 is actually too tall for me to hold that gear
for a typical 1 hour session. At those cadences, it's about 340-360
watts on the Kinetic, and believe me that is a lot.

Is your tire slipping on the roller? You cannot use a knobby tire on
the Kinetic, or on any trainer except one of those (Minoura?) trainers
that clamps on the rim. Once you've got a smooth tire, then the
Kinetic's setup is foolproof. Screw in the roller adjustment knob
until it just makes contact with the tire, then 2 more full turns
tigher and you are done. There's no spring. I've had a lot of
trainers, and this is the best method I've ever seen.

Jay Beattie said:

To answer the original question, I am not familiar with the brand, but
most training stands can offer enough resistance to make it almost
impossible to pedal

I wish that was the case. I tried tightening the bolt that holds
the trainer wheel against the tire and cleaning the tire to prevent
from slipping against the trainer but results are about the same -
I can pedal somewhat comfortably in second highest gear on my bike.
No possibility of standing on pedals - there is simply not enough
resistance.
I just found Tacx Satori trainer online - it is magnetic and has
variable resistance - any opinions on that brand/model?

Woland99 said:

Jay Beattie said:

To answer the original question, I am not familiar with the brand, but
most training stands can offer enough resistance to make it almost
impossible to pedal

I wish that was the case. I tried tightening the bolt that holds
the trainer wheel against the tire and cleaning the tire to prevent
from slipping against the trainer but results are about the same -
I can pedal somewhat comfortably in second highest gear on my bike.
No possibility of standing on pedals - there is simply not enough
resistance.
I just found Tacx Satori trainer online - it is magnetic and has
variable resistance - any opinions on that brand/model?

The Kurt is supposed to be state of the art. I'm surprised it is not
working out for you. I have never tried the Tacx trainers, but like I
mentioned, I have a 20+ year old set of Tacx rollers that are still
going, mostly because the Tacx customer service has been so good --
and because they use standard cartridge bearings that I can buy at the
local bearing shop. My impression of the brand is that it is mid-fi,
but good bang for the buck. If I were you, I would definitely find a
shop where I could try the stand. You don't want another brand that
you can max out. My cheap-o Performance mag trainer has variable
resistance that you control with a cable, and it can really lock down
my rear wheel, but it does not feel like I am riding on the road -- it
feels like a bad stationary bike at a low budget gym. But it does give
me a lot of resistance. You may want a similar stand that will allow
you to put out more watts but will not have a road-like feel.
Personally, I far prefer rollers because stands are so bo-ring to me,
and if I really want to generate uber-watts, I do leg presses. -- Jay
Beattie.

Jay Beattie said:

Woland99 said:

On Mar 2, 2:42 pm, Jay Beattie <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

To answer the original question, I am not familiar with the brand, but
most training stands can offer enough resistance to make it almost
impossible to pedal

Quoted message said:

I wish that was the case. I tried tightening the bolt that holds
the trainer wheel against the tire and cleaning the tire to prevent
from slipping against the trainer but results are about the same -
I can pedal somewhat comfortably in second highest gear on my bike.
No possibility of standing on pedals - there is simply not enough
resistance.
I just found Tacx Satori trainer online - it is magnetic and has
variable resistance - any opinions on that brand/model?

The Kurt is supposed to be state of the art.  I'm surprised it is not
working out for you.  I have never tried the Tacx trainers, but like I
mentioned, I have a 20+ year old set of Tacx rollers that are still
going, mostly because the Tacx customer service has been so good --
and because they use standard cartridge bearings that I can buy at the
local bearing shop.  My impression of the brand is that it is mid-fi,
but good bang for the buck.  If I were you, I would definitely find a
shop where I could try the stand.  You don't want another brand that
you can max out.  My cheap-o Performance mag trainer has variable
resistance that you control with a cable, and it can really lock down
my rear wheel, but it does not feel like I am riding on the road -- it
feels like a bad stationary bike at a low budget gym. But it does give
me a lot of resistance.  You may want a similar stand that will allow
you to put out more watts but will not have a road-like feel.
Personally, I far prefer rollers because stands are so bo-ring to me,
and if I really want to generate uber-watts, I do leg presses. -- Jay
Beattie.

Tape fishing weights to the wheel to kill that cheap-o gym bike feel.
Wear a cup!

Joseph