Not always the driver's fault.....

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:14:42 +0100, John Burns
<[email hidden]> wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

But had a I hit him in my red BMW (chariot's of the Devil as we all
know) I'm sure the whole thing would have been "my fault". Gives one
pause for reflection.

Phew... I'm glad it was ok!

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk

John Burns said:

He came right in front of me, I swerved and stood on the brakes. Just
missed him and no more.

A near miss. Not at all the same as a hit, and far more common.

When you're in charge of a deadly weapon, you have a duty of care.
Your story indicates that you exercised it satisfactorily.

Going into futile hypotheticals, if you'd hit him it would presumably
have been primarily his *fault*, but that wouldn't absolve you of
*responsibility*.

--
Nick Kew

Nick Kew said:

Quoted message said:

He came right in front of me, I swerved and stood on the brakes. Just
missed him and no more.

Quoted message said:

A near miss. Not at all the same as a hit, and far more common.

When you're in charge of a deadly weapon, you have a duty of care.
Your story indicates that you exercised it satisfactorily.

Going into futile hypotheticals, if you'd hit him it would presumably
have been primarily his *fault*, but that wouldn't absolve you of
*responsibility*.

Responsibility for what?

--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Here in North America most cycling accidents (as high as 80%) involve
no one but the cyclist. I'd imagine it's not too different in the UK.
This suggests that blaming motorists for our problems is partly
misplaced.

The kind of errors drivers make are often predictable and can be
neutralized by anticipation and handling skills.

J.F.Jones
Ontario, Canada

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Here in North America most cycling accidents (as high as 80%) involve
no one but the cyclist.

Do you have a reference for this?

Quoted message said:

Here in North America most cycling accidents (as high as 80%) involve
no one but the cyclist. I'd imagine it's not too different in the UK.
This suggests that blaming motorists for our problems is partly
misplaced.

That's probably true and its similar in the UK (90% IIRC) but I bet the
vast majority of "killed or seriously injured" accidents involve a motor
vehicle, as here.

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon

Wally said:

Quoted message said:

When you're in charge of a deadly weapon, you have a duty of care.

...
Responsibility for what?

Your point being?

--
Nick Kew

Wally said:

Quoted message said:

Going into futile hypotheticals, if you'd hit him it would presumably
have been primarily his *fault*, but that wouldn't absolve you of
*responsibility*.

Responsibility for what?

Responsibility for being responsible.

Daniele

in message <[email hidden]>,

(') said:

Here in North America most cycling accidents (as high as 80%) involve
no one but the cyclist.

Uh? You mean you record 'I fell off my bike' as an accident?

Quoted message said:

I'd imagine it's not too different in the UK.

Only in exceptional cases - involving serious injury - would one vehicle
cycle accidents be recorded at all in this country.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

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Wally said:

Nick Kew said:

Going into futile hypotheticals, if you'd hit him it would presumably
have been primarily his *fault*, but that wouldn't absolve you of
*responsibility*.

Responsibility for what?

The extra injury from being hit by a fast-moving ton of metal instead
of by a human being.

Colin McKenzie

Nick Kew said:

Wally said:

Quoted message said:

When you're in charge of a deadly weapon, you have a duty of care.

...
Responsibility for what?

Your point being?

It wasn't a point, it was a question.

[clue: the little squiggly thing at the end]

If you want to make what appear to be stupid generalisations, you must expect
people to ask you to disambiguate your assertions.

"John Burns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Just a reflection that not all accidents are the fault of the driver.

Actually if you read drivers accounts of collisions with cyclists it is
nearly always the cyclists fault.

John Burns said:

Just a reflection that not all accidents are the fault of the driver.

There was no accident (credit to you for your swift reactions) so it is
a moot point.

However, from the way you tell it, it's possible that - had there been
an accident - your speed and tiredness might have been considered
contributory factors. (You say you were doing "under 30" but from your
description of the circumstances, "under 20" would have been more
appropriate.) Besides, we have only your side of the story.

And as for the cyclist having no lights - so how did you see him?

d.

I submit that on or about Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:14:42 +0100, the person
known to the court as John Burns <[email hidden]> made a
statement (<[email hidden]> in Your Honour's
bundle) to the following effect:

Quoted message said:

Just a reflection that not all accidents are the fault of the driver.

About 3/4 according to a study Bob Davis just sent me.

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

Quoted message said:

And as for the cyclist having no lights - so how did you see him?

It's wasn't fully dark yet and there were street lights.

--
Who needs a life when you've got Unix? :-)
Email: [email hidden], John G.Burns B.Eng, Bonny Scotland
Web : http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk - The Ultimate BMW Homepage!
Need Sun or HP Unix kit? http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk/unix.html

Colin McKenzie said:

Quoted message said:

Responsibility for what?

Quoted message said:

The extra injury from being hit by a fast-moving ton of metal instead
of by a human being.

Does this mean that lorry drivers are even more responsible for the
stupidity of others than you seem to think car drivers are?

--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

"Wally" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Colin McKenzie said:

Quoted message said:

Responsibility for what?

Quoted message said:

The extra injury from being hit by a fast-moving ton of metal instead
of by a human being.

Does this mean that lorry drivers are even more responsible for the
stupidity of others than you seem to think car drivers are?

Speaking of lorry drivers....

Today cycling into Dereham I was overtaken by a couple of HGVs that go to
and from the local quarry up the road. They were exemplary drivers. Oncoming
traffic so they waited. They over took me when it was safe to do so, giving
me a wide berth. They waited until they were well past me before pulling in.
Coming back from Dereham, a twunt in a large HGV (non-quarry one) pulled out
from a side road (on right) in front of me, and his vehicle was so long,
that in him making his left turn, he pulled right over on to my side of the
road. He was observant - as he shouted at me through the open driver's side
window of his cab. What he shouted was, "Get a car!" So I blew a kiss at
him. This seemed to confuse him.

In my mind I contrasted the exemplary driver behaviour of the quarry
drivers, so once I got home I wrote a note to the site manager of the local
quarry, asking that if possible, he pass along my thanks to the drivers of
the HGVs visiting the quarry who show awareness of more vulnerable road
users, as it's not always possible to take a hand off the handlebars to wave
a thank you.

This afternoon the head of transport for the company running the the quarry
phoned up and said he will make sure that my letter is placed where drivers
visiting the quarry can see it. I'm working on the theory that I can catch
more flies with honey rather than vinegar, so to speak, and hopefully
cycling the lanes where the quarry lorries frequent will be even more
pleasant :-)

Cheers, helen s

John Burns said:

It's wasn't fully dark yet and there were street lights.

So perhaps the presence or absence of lights was not strictly relevant?

I only ask because you seem to be mentioning it in order to add weight
to your claim that this phantom accident was the cyclist's fault. And
yet you saw him well enough...

Besides which, there was no accident anyway.

It makes me wonder what was the purpose of you posting your little
tale. We are all well aware that cyclists are not /all/ impeccable road
users, and there are plenty of statistics available to back up your
observation that cyclists are /sometimes/ at fault for the accidents
they are involved in (though those same statistics point to it being
the driver's fault in the majority of incidents). So what new light
have you shed on the matter with your anecdote? Little to none, I'd
say.

It begins to look like an antagonistic posting with no real purpose
than to have a dig at cyclists. In other words, a troll.

d.

"wafflycat" <waffles*A*T*v21net*D*O*T*co*D*O*T*uk> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Wally" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Colin McKenzie said:

> Responsibility for what?

Quoted message said:

The extra injury from being hit by a fast-moving ton of metal instead
of by a human being.

Does this mean that lorry drivers are even more responsible for the
stupidity of others than you seem to think car drivers are?

Speaking of lorry drivers....

Today cycling into Dereham I was overtaken by a couple of HGVs that go to
and from the local quarry up the road. They were exemplary drivers.
Oncoming traffic so they waited. They over took me when it was safe to do
so, giving me a wide berth. They waited until they were well past me
before pulling in. Coming back from Dereham, a twunt in a large HGV
(non-quarry one) pulled out from a side road (on right) in front of me,
and his vehicle was so long, that in him making his left turn, he pulled
right over on to my side of the road. He was observant - as he shouted at
me through the open driver's side window of his cab. What he shouted was,
"Get a car!" So I blew a kiss at him. This seemed to confuse him.

In my mind I contrasted the exemplary driver behaviour of the quarry
drivers, so once I got home I wrote a note to the site manager of the
local quarry, asking that if possible, he pass along my thanks to the
drivers of the HGVs visiting the quarry who show awareness of more
vulnerable road users, as it's not always possible to take a hand off the
handlebars to wave a thank you.

This afternoon the head of transport for the company running the the
quarry phoned up and said he will make sure that my letter is placed where
drivers visiting the quarry can see it. I'm working on the theory that I
can catch more flies with honey rather than vinegar, so to speak, and
hopefully cycling the lanes where the quarry lorries frequent will be even
more pleasant :-)

Cheers, helen s

Excellent - good for you Helen! Great idea.

G.