North wales deaths

Martyn Bolt wrote on Sunday 08 January 2006 19:58:

Quoted message said:

i thought you could still be done for going to fast for the
conditions.

Driving without due care?
--
Regards
Alex
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"Alex Potter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Martyn Bolt wrote on Sunday 08 January 2006 19:58:

Quoted message said:

i thought you could still be done for going to fast for the
conditions.

Driving without due care?
--
Regards
Alex
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The Reply-To address is valid

Sadly, no matter what steps are taken against the driver it won't undo
what's been done. My thoughts are with all those affected by this terrible
tragedy.

Derek.

I think that this will be a difficult one.

I have already made a formal complaint to North Wales Police for saying that
excessive speed was not the cause of this accident.

It seems that the road conditions were unusually bad as a result of previous
nights rain and continuing below zero temperatures. Between 9:00 am and
10:30 am the temperature rose from -2.2 C to +0.6 C. With a rising sun this
would have made any surface ice even more slippery as the ice developed a
surface film of water.

Apparently there was an "accident" on this stretch of road an hour earlier.
It is questionable whether the police then knew how slippery the road was
and whether any action was taken to either grit the road or put up a
temprory "Icy Road" sign. Of course it is easy in retrospect to be wise.

The fact that the cyclists were coming in the opposite direction when the
car lost control was completely accidental. However, the fact that the car
lost control was not, and was down to being driven at a speed in excess of
that within which it could have been controlled. It is debateable as to what
evidence there was for the driver to have realised that the road was icy and
therefore of limited grip. Of course if an "Ice "warning sign had been
erected then this would have been ample evidence, or indeed if the whole
road was slippery. However it is the responsibility of a driver to be aware
of road conditions.

I guess we will have to await the full investigation of this event.

With regard to Martyn's concrns about safety on our roads, if this had been
a group of walkers they would probably have been equally affected. The event
demonstrates that its is not cycling that is dangerous, but merely the
direction, speed and path of motor vehicles with which cyclists have to
share the roads.

Best regards on this unhappy day.

Rod King

"Martyn Bolt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Once again innocent cyclists are killed, for the rest of us , if my
own experience is anything to go by, our families will grow even more
concerned every time we go out.

The police say the speed was not a factor, has anyone any experience
in this field.

i thought you could still be done for going to fast for the
conditions. You don't lose a car on a corner unless you are too fast
for the corner, or your suspension is shot and you lose the back end.

Martyn

DiddyS said:

"Alex Potter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Martyn Bolt wrote on Sunday 08 January 2006 19:58:

Quoted message said:

i thought you could still be done for going to fast for the
conditions.

Driving without due care?
--
Regards
Alex
The From address above is a spam-trap.
The Reply-To address is valid

Sadly, no matter what steps are taken against the driver it won't undo
what's been done. My thoughts are with all those affected by this terrible
tragedy.

However, if action is taken then it sends the message that drivers have
to take responsibility for their actions. Instead of a police officer
condoning driving at summer speeds in icy conditions, and effectively
telling motorists they won't be held to account, which is grossly
irresponsible.

...d

"Rod King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I think that this will be a difficult one.

I have already made a formal complaint to North Wales Police for saying
that
excessive speed was not the cause of this accident.

It seems that the road conditions were unusually bad as a result of
previous
nights rain and continuing below zero temperatures. Between 9:00 am and
10:30 am the temperature rose from -2.2 C to +0.6 C. With a rising sun
this
would have made any surface ice even more slippery as the ice developed a
surface film of water.

Apparently there was an "accident" on this stretch of road an hour
earlier.
It is questionable whether the police then knew how slippery the road was
and whether any action was taken to either grit the road or put up a
temprory "Icy Road" sign. Of course it is easy in retrospect to be wise.

The fact that the cyclists were coming in the opposite direction when the
car lost control was completely accidental. However, the fact that the car
lost control was not, and was down to being driven at a speed in excess of
that within which it could have been controlled.

But one can think that one is driving carefully and at a reasonable speed
until something like this happens. It is so bloody easy to be wise after
the event. Speculation like this, and that in most of the posts today, is a
waste of time until the plod publish what actually happened!

"graham" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:stfwf.45732$tl.44648@pd7tw3no...

Quoted message said:

But one can think that one is driving carefully and at a reasonable speed
until something like this happens. It is so bloody easy to be wise after
the event. Speculation like this, and that in most of the posts today, is

a

Quoted message said:

waste of time until the plod publish what actually happened!

Graham

I didn't think I was speculating. I agree that one can be taken by surprise
by how slippery the road is. But you cannot pretend that some big boy did it
and run away.

Unfortunately the plod did not wait until the acccident was fully
investigated. They (well one of them) came to the conclusion that the car's
speed was probably 50 mph and that this was not excessive on this road. That
was his speculation not mine.

Regards

Rod

graham said:

But one can think that one is driving carefully and at a reasonable speed
until something like this happens. It is so bloody easy to be wise after
the event. Speculation like this, and that in most of the posts today, is a
waste of time until the plod publish what actually happened!

I have been driving for over thirty years including some very icy roads.
I have never lost control of a car although I have been hit by others
that did, and I'm not known for hanging around when I drive a car.

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

graham said:

But one can think that one is driving carefully and at a reasonable speed
until something like this happens. It is so bloody easy to be wise after
the event. Speculation like this, and that in most of the posts today,
is a waste of time until the plod publish what actually happened!

I have been driving for over thirty years including some very icy roads. I
have never lost control of a car although I have been hit by others that
did, and I'm not known for hanging around when I drive a car.

I think that you have been lucky. I live where the winters are long and
cold and icy roads are normal. I drive with extreme care in such conditions
but still get caught out on the odd occasion. I am not sticking up for the
driver in this terrible accident, by the way, I'm just emphasising that
speculation is pointless.

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

graham said:

But one can think that one is driving carefully and at a reasonable speed
until something like this happens. It is so bloody easy to be wise after
the event. Speculation like this, and that in most of the posts today,
is a waste of time until the plod publish what actually happened!

I have been driving for over thirty years including some very icy roads. I
have never lost control of a car although I have been hit by others that
did, and I'm not known for hanging around when I drive a car.

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham

This is the wrong time to say this after such a horrible event -- but I am a
driver of some 50 years and a cyclist for much of the same time and I have
been at fault on both methods of transport at unexpected times. I, like
many other people, do not maintain perfect reactions and awareness. You are
fortunate to have maintained such a perfect record.

I have had the good fortune not to have inflicted any grave injury to any
other person through my mistakes.

I do not condone the actions of the driver of the car but, in all honesty,
"there but for the grace of god" go I.

Of course it is not an accident and it is a matter of well proven fact that
the motorised vehicle is an accepted killer! Perhaps the reason for the
police statement about being not "excessive speed" is coloured by that same
feeling of "there but for the grace of god go I."

It is not an excuse, but just an acceptance of the fact that, in our
society, killing by motorised vehicle is an accepted way of life.

I do not like it at all but it is surely true. There are many many more
motorised events ( the hit and runs) which are much more blameworthy. That
is not belittling the deaths of fellow cyclists but just trying to be an
ordinary guy and looking at the circumstances.

I am a fierce critic of the minority of motorised drivers who think they
have an absolute right to do what they like on the road but the majority of
drivers sensible. I cannot say the same for the majority of people on cycles
( notice I do not say "cyclists"😉. Is it really surprising that the opinion
of both pedestrians and drivers is so coloured against cyclists.

Finally I also express my deep sadness to the families of those killed in
this needles event
--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire,
England, United Kingdom.
Remove PSANTISPAM to reply

graham said:

I think that you have been lucky. I live where the winters are long and
cold and icy roads are normal. I drive with extreme care in such conditions
but still get caught out on the odd occasion. I am not sticking up for the
driver in this terrible accident, by the way, I'm just emphasising that
speculation is pointless.

I'm not lucky. I take care, I took training and practice it, I drive at
a speed appropriate for the conditions. Saying its lucky means that
losing control is just being unlucky.

OTOH the other month I was on my bike and the roads were icy enough that
I had difficulty standing and the back wheel spun if I pushed too hard
on the pedals. Its one of the few times I've ridden on the pavement,
partly because the surface was rougher and the grip much better but
mainly because all the cars were barrelling down that icy road at 50-60mph.

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham

On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 22:23:57 GMT, "Pinky"
<[email hidden]> said in
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

I do not condone the actions of the driver of the car but, in all honesty,
"there but for the grace of god" go I.

I don't think anyone would disagree, but neither would we ask to be
excused on those grounds.

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

Rod King said:

Unfortunately the plod did not wait until the acccident was fully
investigated. They (well one of them) came to the conclusion that the
car's speed was probably 50 mph and that this was not excessive on
this road. That was his speculation not mine.

A word of caution:

From an EEC publication: REDUCING TRAFFIC INJURIES RESULTING FROM EXCESS AND
INAPPROPRIATE SPEED
http://www.etsc.be/documents/Reducing%20traffic%20injuries%20from%20excess%20and%20inappropriate%20sp.pdfExcess speed is exceeding the speed limit. Inappropriate speed is drivingtoo fastfor the prevailing conditions. These conditions may make it appropriate fordrivers to choose speeds much lower than the legal limit.And ROSPA: Inappropriate Speed - Policy Statements - May 2005http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/advice/driving/speed_policy.htmThe term inappropriate speed encompasses both ‘excessive speed’, when thespeed limit is exceeded (sometimes by wide margins) but also driving orriding within the speed limit when this is too fast for the particularconditions at the time (for example, in poor weather, poor visibility orhigh pedestrian activity).pk

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 22:23:57 GMT, "Pinky"
<[email hidden]> said in
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

I do not condone the actions of the driver of the car but, in all honesty,
"there but for the grace of god" go I.

I don't think anyone would disagree, but neither would we ask to be
excused on those grounds.

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

And the driver isn't asking it , is he since he cannot respond here!

Believe me, I am a very "positive" cyclist on my daily runs. A very small
percentage of drivers are potential killers in their everyday driving styles
and they terrify me! And the car is, inherently, a heavy metal box which is
potentially lethal

But I can. and do, excuse those who make fallible (?) mistakes. I am just
a man and make them as well. Hopefully not at a time when it matters, as in
this event.

(I use my bike/car in the ratio of about 3/1 on a yearly basis -- i.e. 30
mile on the bike to 10 mile in the car. I am personally aware that driving
the car is more dangerous than riding my bike)
--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire,
England, United Kingdom.
Remove PSANTISPAM to reply

in message <[email hidden]>, Rod

King (') said:

Apparently there was an "accident" on this stretch of road an hour
earlier. It is questionable whether the police then knew how slippery
the road was and whether any action was taken to either grit the road
or put up a temprory "Icy Road" sign. Of course it is easy in
retrospect to be wise.

None of this excuses the driver for going too fast for the conditions.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; I'll have a proper rant later, when I get the time.

"graham" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:stfwf.45732$tl.44648@pd7tw3no...

Quoted message said:

"Rod King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I think that this will be a difficult one.

I have already made a formal complaint to North Wales Police for saying
that
excessive speed was not the cause of this accident.

It seems that the road conditions were unusually bad as a result of
previous
nights rain and continuing below zero temperatures. Between 9:00 am and
10:30 am the temperature rose from -2.2 C to +0.6 C. With a rising sun
this
would have made any surface ice even more slippery as the ice developed

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

surface film of water.

Apparently there was an "accident" on this stretch of road an hour
earlier.
It is questionable whether the police then knew how slippery the road

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and whether any action was taken to either grit the road or put up a
temprory "Icy Road" sign. Of course it is easy in retrospect to be wise.

The fact that the cyclists were coming in the opposite direction when

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

car lost control was completely accidental. However, the fact that the

car

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

lost control was not, and was down to being driven at a speed in excess

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that within which it could have been controlled.

But one can think that one is driving carefully and at a reasonable speed
until something like this happens.

Usually only when one is driving without due care and attention.
If it requires an accident to inform you of the driving conditions
you should not be driving, that fact most drivers fall into this
category is no excuse.

Quoted message said:

It is so bloody easy to be wise after
the event. Speculation like this, and that in most of the posts today, is

a

Quoted message said:

waste of time until the plod publish what actually happened!

"Rod King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"graham" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:stfwf.45732$tl.44648@pd7tw3no...

Quoted message said:

But one can think that one is driving carefully and at a reasonable

speed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

until something like this happens. It is so bloody easy to be wise

after

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the event. Speculation like this, and that in most of the posts today,

is

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

waste of time until the plod publish what actually happened!

Graham

I didn't think I was speculating. I agree that one can be taken by

surprise

Quoted message said:

by how slippery the road is. But you cannot pretend that some big boy did

it

Quoted message said:

and run away.

Unfortunately the plod did not wait until the acccident was fully
investigated. They (well one of them) came to the conclusion that the

car's

Quoted message said:

speed was probably 50 mph and that this was not excessive on this road.

Obviously hugely excessive for the conditions, also the police knew
the road was dangerous because of an earlier accident. They share the
drivers guilt so they will obviously not be blaming him (and hence
themselves).

Quoted message said:

That
was his speculation not mine.

Regards

Rod

Trevor

My points are not actually raised against the driver of the car. As I have
said we do not know what were the circumstances.

My real criticisn is of the way the event is reported.

The BBC pointed out that the cyclists were all wearing helmets. So what.

The BBC said that the cyclists were in collision with the car.

The police said that the driver's speed was not excessive.

Another report said that all the cyclists were wearing appropriate clothing
and safety equipment. By this I presume they meant clothing and equipment
above the legal minimum.

Interestingly there have been no comments that I am aware of as to whether
the car was flourescent yellow or no, the state of the car's tyres, the
state of the gritting of the road, whether the ice was widespread and
therefore able to be anticipated, whether the police should have put out an
"icy road" warning after the first accident. All the speculation was about
whether the cyclists were two abreast, wearing helmets or heaven forbid
wearing ordinary clothes.

Yet at the same time the police implied that no-one was to blame and it was
just an accident. Well I would like a little more rigour and objectivity
from the press and the police.

Best regards

Rod King

My thought is that a solar-powered temperature-sensitive illuminated
roadsign warning of ice can't be too hard to build and would make a
poingant memorial, I'm sure there are people here who can do it.

It's sad that there wasn't already one sited at a known ice hazard.

Ah

I take your point of precision.

So maybe he should have said it may have been inappropriate but not
excessive.

Maybe these documents should be essential reading for anyone watching the
television.

Hoever it would appear that if conditions are below freezing then the
maximum speed is not really relevant and should not have been the measure by
which the vehicle speed was assessed.

REgards

Rod

"p.k." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Rod King said:

Unfortunately the plod did not wait until the acccident was fully
investigated. They (well one of them) came to the conclusion that the
car's speed was probably 50 mph and that this was not excessive on
this road. That was his speculation not mine.

A word of caution:

From an EEC publication: REDUCING TRAFFIC INJURIES RESULTING FROM EXCESS

AND

Quoted message said:

INAPPROPRIATE SPEED

http://www.etsc.be/documents/Reducing%20traffic%20injuries%20from%20excess%2
0and%20inappropriate%20sp.pdfExcess speed is exceeding the speed limit.
Inappropriate speed is drivingtoo fastfor the prevailing conditions. These
conditions may make it appropriate fordrivers to choose speeds much lower
than the legal limit.And ROSPA: Inappropriate Speed - Policy Statements -
May 2005http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/advice/driving/speed_policy.htmThe
term inappropriate speed encompasses both 'excessive speed', when thespeed
limit is exceeded (sometimes by wide margins) but also driving orriding
within the speed limit when this is too fast for the particularconditions at
the time (for example, in poor weather, poor visibility orhigh pedestrian
activity).pk

Quoted message said: