No Winner--Fixing the Tour

On Aug 1, 7:14 am, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/07/31/for_me_this_tour_has_no_...

".......A partial return to national teams, as proposed by the Tour
organisers? That might play its part, if only to rein in the rampant
commercialism that has contributed to the current free-for-all, to make the
point to professional teams that there is an alternative. Part of the
problem, it seems, is that some teams think the race won't function without
them. They need to get the message that it can. Next year, if the Tour
organisers have any bottle, maybe it will.

Putting on national colours won't stop doping just like that - Tom Simpson
died in a GB jersey, lest we forget - but it would cut the ties with the
doping infrastructure that must travel with some of the teams. Arguably,
without the finance and the structure (doctors, couriers etc) it would be
harder to dope.

There are other measures: blood testing up to 30 minutes before the start.
Ramping up out-of-competition tests. Hammering Wada to push through the
human growth hormone test and a way of detecting heterologous blood
transfusions. Appointing a neutral doping control officer-cum-detective to
each team..........."

Yep, ramapnt commercialism definitely drove the doping by the Chinese
and E. German Olympic teams. There was definitely no organized
infrastructure provided to those athletes.
Once again we have a steaming pile of fertilizer being provided by
the Guardian.
Then again the Guardian probably had no problem with the doping done
for the glory of Socialism. Fits their world mission.
Bill C

Bill C said:

Then again the Guardian probably had no problem with the doping done
for the glory of Socialism. Fits their world mission.

Lenin is into formaldehyde.

"Donald Munro" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bill C said:

Then again the Guardian probably had no problem with the doping done
for the glory of Socialism. Fits their world mission.

Lenin is into formaldehyde.

And looks more like a Talosian than Rasmussen

Bill C said:

Yep, ramapnt commercialism definitely drove the doping by the Chinese
and E. German Olympic teams.

The US National team practiced blood doping (legal at the time) in the 1984 Olympics.

There's no reason to believe national teams will do anything other than improve Italy's chances, finally.

Dan

On Aug 1, 8:35 am, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m>

Quoted message said:

Bill C said:

Yep, ramapnt commercialism definitely drove the doping by the Chinese
and E. German Olympic teams.

The US National team practiced blood doping (legal at the time) in the 1984 Olympics.

There's no reason to believe national teams will do anything other than improve Italy's chances, finally.

Dan

Yep, they did. The idea that National teams are somehow more ethical
than trade teams is ridiculous. Additionally, States have much larger
resources to dedicate to making the doping more sophisticated, and
defending their athletes.
This got sent along to me and is better than the Guardian piece:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/070731

Bill C

Dan Connelly said:

There's no reason to believe national teams will do anything other than
improve Italy's chances, finally.

Italy will take over from Telekom as the most tactically astute team who
never chase down their own riders.

"Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Aug 1, 7:14 am, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/07/31/for_me_this_tour_has_no_...

".......A partial return to national teams, as proposed by the Tour
organisers? That might play its part, if only to rein in the rampant
commercialism that has contributed to the current free-for-all, to make
the
point to professional teams that there is an alternative. Part of the
problem, it seems, is that some teams think the race won't function
without
them. They need to get the message that it can. Next year, if the Tour
organisers have any bottle, maybe it will.

Putting on national colours won't stop doping just like that - Tom
Simpson
died in a GB jersey, lest we forget - but it would cut the ties with the
doping infrastructure that must travel with some of the teams. Arguably,
without the finance and the structure (doctors, couriers etc) it would be
harder to dope.

There are other measures: blood testing up to 30 minutes before the
start.
Ramping up out-of-competition tests. Hammering Wada to push through the
human growth hormone test and a way of detecting heterologous blood
transfusions. Appointing a neutral doping control officer-cum-detective
to
each team..........."

Yep, ramapnt commercialism definitely drove the doping by the Chinese
and E. German Olympic teams. There was definitely no organized
infrastructure provided to those athletes.

In those systems, the state acts as a substitute for western commercialism.
Foteringham said that national teams were only part of a possible solution.
I think his point that national teams would make it more difficult (albeit,
not impossible) logisticaly to dope is a good one. Combine that with on the
line testing and other suggestions and you might have a decent start in a
new ofensive against doping. To simply reject what WF writes because it is
in the Guardian is beneath your reasoning abilty Bill.

Quoted message said:

Once again we have a steaming pile of fertilizer being provided by
the Guardian.
Then again the Guardian probably had no problem with the doping done
for the glory of Socialism. Fits their world mission.

I thought China was a laizze fair capitalist country. :-)

Quoted message said:

Bill C

Dan Connelly said:

There's no reason to believe national teams will do anything other than
improve Italy's chances, finally.

It'd be a boon to the French regional teams.

Bob Schwartz

On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 13:06:18 GMT, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Aug 1, 7:14 am, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/07/31/for_me_this_tour_has_no_...

".......A partial return to national teams, as proposed by the Tour
organisers? That might play its part, if only to rein in the rampant
commercialism that has contributed to the current free-for-all, to make
the
point to professional teams that there is an alternative. Part of the
problem, it seems, is that some teams think the race won't function
without
them. They need to get the message that it can. Next year, if the Tour
organisers have any bottle, maybe it will.

Putting on national colours won't stop doping just like that - Tom
Simpson
died in a GB jersey, lest we forget - but it would cut the ties with the
doping infrastructure that must travel with some of the teams. Arguably,
without the finance and the structure (doctors, couriers etc) it would be
harder to dope.

There are other measures: blood testing up to 30 minutes before the
start.
Ramping up out-of-competition tests. Hammering Wada to push through the
human growth hormone test and a way of detecting heterologous blood
transfusions. Appointing a neutral doping control officer-cum-detective
to
each team..........."

Yep, ramapnt commercialism definitely drove the doping by the Chinese
and E. German Olympic teams. There was definitely no organized
infrastructure provided to those athletes.

In those systems, the state acts as a substitute for western commercialism.
Foteringham said that national teams were only part of a possible solution.
I think his point that national teams would make it more difficult (albeit,
not impossible) logisticaly to dope is a good one.

Oh, [censored]. If logistics were that big a hurdle jazz musicians would've had to
cancel European tours.

Quoted message said:

Combine that with on the
line testing and other suggestions and you might have a decent start in a
new ofensive against doping. To simply reject what WF writes because it is
in the Guardian is beneath your reasoning abilty Bill.

It's generally sensible to discount any opinion from them. I've marvelled at
their ability to report and write well and then derive an ideologically sound
conclusion that fails to follow the facts that were so well presented.

In any case National teams ain't gonna fix it. About all it does is direct more
power to ASO. THey have not been particularly deft in using what power they
have.

Ron

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Once again we have a steaming pile of fertilizer being provided by
the Guardian.
Then again the Guardian probably had no problem with the doping done
for the glory of Socialism. Fits their world mission.

I thought China was a laizze fair capitalist country. :-)

Quoted message said:

Bill C

On Aug 1, 9:06 am, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

<Bunch snipped>

Quoted message said:

On Aug 1, 7:14 am, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>
In those systems, the state acts as a substitute for western commercialism.

Foteringham said that national teams were only part of a possible solution.
I think his point that national teams would make it more difficult (albeit,
not impossible) logisticaly to dope is a good one. Combine that with on the
line testing and other suggestions and you might have a decent start in a
new ofensive against doping. To simply reject what WF writes because it is
in the Guardian is beneath your reasoning abilty Bill.

I would argue that the resources available to a State to dope are
much more significant. Diplomatic bags are untoucheable. Generally
diplomatic staff are exempt from most legal issues. States have lots
of experience in conducting covert operations and the tools to do it
with. They have access to the latest drug research, and the
scientists. Lots of reasons that State doping should be more effective
IMO.
I don't know why, other than his disdain for capitalism/commercialism
he threw that idea in with the good suggestions he had.
He chose to introduce politcal philosophy and the suggestion is just
nonsense given the history of State doping in sports.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Once again we have a steaming pile of fertilizer being provided by
the Guardian.
Then again the Guardian probably had no problem with the doping done
for the glory of Socialism. Fits their world mission.

I thought China was a laizze fair capitalist country. :-)

They've finally figured out that they can still rule without threat
much more comfortably by a limited capitalist system. Russia is
moving pretty quickly back towards the Chinese model of both economy
and political control.
Bill C

Bill C said:

<snipped>

Quoted message said:

I would argue that the resources available to a State to dope are
much more significant. Diplomatic bags are untoucheable. Generally
diplomatic staff are exempt from most legal issues. States have lots
of experience in conducting covert operations and the tools to do it
with. They have access to the latest drug research, and the
scientists. Lots of reasons that State doping should be more effective
IMO.
I don't know why, other than his disdain for capitalism/commercialism
he threw that idea in with the good suggestions he had.
He chose to introduce politcal philosophy and the suggestion is just
nonsense given the history of State doping in sports.

Bill C

One of the French folks wandering around at Augsburg commented once
that the "C.D" on diplomatic bags did not stand for "Corps
Diplomatique" but "Contrebande Distingué".
He was in a position to know since he was part of the courrier group.
Bill C

Bill C said:

On Aug 1, 7:14 am, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/07/31/for_me_this_tour_has_no_...

Quoted message said:

".......A partial return to national teams, as proposed by the Tour
organisers? That might play its part, if only to rein in the rampant
commercialism that has contributed to the current free-for-all, to make the
point to professional teams that there is an alternative. Part of the
problem, it seems, is that some teams think the race won't function without
them. They need to get the message that it can. Next year, if the Tour
organisers have any bottle, maybe it will.

Quoted message said:

Putting on national colours won't stop doping just like that - Tom Simpson
died in a GB jersey, lest we forget - but it would cut the ties with the
doping infrastructure that must travel with some of the teams. Arguably,
without the finance and the structure (doctors, couriers etc) it would be
harder to dope.

Quoted message said:

There are other measures: blood testing up to 30 minutes before the start.
Ramping up out-of-competition tests. Hammering Wada to push through the
human growth hormone test and a way of detecting heterologous blood
transfusions. Appointing a neutral doping control officer-cum-detective to
each team..........."

Yep, ramapnt commercialism definitely drove the doping by the Chinese
and E. German Olympic teams. There was definitely no organized
infrastructure provided to those athletes.
Once again we have a steaming pile of fertilizer being provided by
the Guardian.
Then again the Guardian probably had no problem with the doping done
for the glory of Socialism. Fits their world mission.
Bill C- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Correct

National short or Television Program shirt. If they have a bike
between their legs they will still cheat.

On Aug 1, 6:14 am, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>
wrote:
(earlier stuff that got shot down pretty quickly snipped)

Quoted message said:

There are other measures: blood testing up to 30 minutes before the start.

That wouldn't give the fine folks at the lab much time to leak results
to the Press, would it now?

Blood testing at the feed zones? On the podium itself?

Quoted message said:

Ramping up out-of-competition tests. Hammering Wada to push through the
human growth hormone test and a way of detecting heterologous blood
transfusions. Appointing a neutral doping control officer-cum-detective to
each team..........."

The cost of increased purity is going to be mighty dear.

Imbedded dope cops? And cops to watch the cops?

Hey, I have an idea: Let's not make rules we can't enforce, and try it
that way for a nice extended trial period-- say, five years or so.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8162930835755001242

What if EPO use could be open? The microdosing technique supposedly
used (found by trial and error?) by many pro cyclists seems to be
safe, since we haven't been reading about riders dying in their sleep
for some time now.

What if "sports medicine" could be made legitimate ("open", not
underground), lowering risks for participants? IOW, what if chemical
performance enhancement could be made safe, or as "safe" as
participation itself?

http://tinyurl.com/2nyajf --D-y

Quoted message said:

National short or Television Program shirt. If they have a bike
between their legs they will still cheat.

Why do we continue to act as if this is a cycling-specific issue? Cheating
is rampant throughout society. White-collar crime is rampant (market
manipulation, option schemes, embezzlement...), students at the highest
universities in the land are not questioning their "need" to cheat on tests,
etc.

Having a bike between your legs does not in any way change your desire to
cheat; it only changes the mechanism. Society at large has decided what the
ethical parameters for life have become. Cycling is one of the most-obvious
indications of were those parameters lie, because we actually believe
(perhaps naively) that something can be done about it, and publicize those
attempts. We air our dirty laundry for all the world to see, and to what
end?

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bill C said:

On Aug 1, 7:14 am, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/07/31/for_me_this_tour_has_no_...

Quoted message said:

".......A partial return to national teams, as proposed by the Tour
organisers? That might play its part, if only to rein in the rampant
commercialism that has contributed to the current free-for-all, to make
the
point to professional teams that there is an alternative. Part of the
problem, it seems, is that some teams think the race won't function
without
them. They need to get the message that it can. Next year, if the Tour
organisers have any bottle, maybe it will.

Quoted message said:

Putting on national colours won't stop doping just like that - Tom
Simpson
died in a GB jersey, lest we forget - but it would cut the ties with
the
doping infrastructure that must travel with some of the teams.
Arguably,
without the finance and the structure (doctors, couriers etc) it would
be
harder to dope.

Quoted message said:

There are other measures: blood testing up to 30 minutes before the
start.
Ramping up out-of-competition tests. Hammering Wada to push through the
human growth hormone test and a way of detecting heterologous blood
transfusions. Appointing a neutral doping control officer-cum-detective
to
each team..........."

Yep, ramapnt commercialism definitely drove the doping by the Chinese
and E. German Olympic teams. There was definitely no organized
infrastructure provided to those athletes.
Once again we have a steaming pile of fertilizer being provided by
the Guardian.
Then again the Guardian probably had no problem with the doping done
for the glory of Socialism. Fits their world mission.
Bill C- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Correct

National short or Television Program shirt. If they have a bike
between their legs they will still cheat.

Quoted message said:

National short or Television Program shirt. If they have a bike
between their legs they will still cheat.

Just the same as your rowers.

In the USA, our Tour coverage, on the Versus network, was sponsored by
a "natural male enhancement" drug company.

I guess that isn't "cheating" since all's fair in love and war (no one
having raised a comparable-to-doping-in-cycling public outcry IRT the
known heart attack-Viagra usage link).

At least those aged athletes didn't die in their sleep. Indeed; they
were "Doing Something They Loved"! --D-y

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Donald Munro said:

Bill C said:

Then again the Guardian probably had no problem with the doping done
for the glory of Socialism. Fits their world mission.

Lenin is into formaldehyde.

You believe? The contents of that diorama is a wax effigy.

--
Michael Press

Quoted message said:

The cost of increased purity is going to be mighty dear.

Imbedded dope cops? And cops to watch the cops?

It should keep the ex stasi employees who may now be unemployed, gainfully
employed.

Bill C said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Then again the Guardian probably had no problem with the doping done
for the glory of Socialism. Fits their world mission.

Donald Munro said:

Quoted message said:

Lenin is into formaldehyde.

Michael Press said:

You believe? The contents of that diorama is a wax effigy.

Tyler is innocent and that is his chimera.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

National short or Television Program shirt. If they have a bike
between their legs they will still cheat.

Why do we continue to act as if this is a cycling-specific issue? Cheating
is rampant throughout society. White-collar crime is rampant (market
manipulation, option schemes, embezzlement...), students at the highest
universities in the land are not questioning their "need" to cheat on tests,
etc.

Having a bike between your legs does not in any way change your desire to
cheat; it only changes the mechanism. Society at large has decided what the
ethical parameters for life have become. Cycling is one of the most-obvious
indications of were those parameters lie, because we actually believe
(perhaps naively) that something can be done about it, and publicize those
attempts. We air our dirty laundry for all the world to see, and to what
end?

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReactionBicycles.com

http://msn.foxsports.com/golf/story/7081816

Quoted:

His local golf club in Florence released a statement later Wednesday,
defending him and saying that he had informed authorities at the time
of the test that he had taken the drug for almost two years to treat a
prostate problem.

Golf has come under increased pressure from the World Anti-Doping
Agency to introduce random drug testing after South African veteran
Gary Player claimed at the British Open last month that some golfers
were taking performance-enhancing drugs.

I don't think Wada is going after the rich, white guy, league here in
the US that is the PGA, or at least not for long.
Way more lawyers, and politicians golf, and are fanatical about it,
than race bicycles.
Bill C