No Helmets Needed?

Edward Dolan said:

I like to wear a horse riding kind of helmet for my recumbent cycling. They
look sharp, you can fit them perfectly and they are not expensive. Most bike
helmets these days are for racers and look just awful. Esthetics count after
all.

I don't think they look bad as helmets -- I just think they look bad on
me! Makes me look like a cartoon mushroom (hey, you shoulda seen me in
my Army days -- people thought I looked like a Teenage Mutant Ninja
Turtle!).

Horseback riding helmets sound like a good idea. Funny how that sport
seems so female, though.

Quoted message said:

Yeah, but who cares - and who needs to know any of this?

Well, I guess you do, since you've been asking and asking!

Quoted message said:

It has nothing to
do with recumbents and/or cycling. He is doing nothing but crowing about
himself.

Well, how's that any different from customizing your 'bent with decals
and such?

Quoted message said:

Furthermore, he is not Great like I am. See my signature to know
who I am.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota

Do riders carry rifles up there? Just in case they see a deer or a car
or something. ^_^

Quoted message said:

aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Ah, you're that "Prairie Home Companion" regular, huh?

gds said:

Quoted message said:

And indeed, if you dig for comparative data, you'll find that cycling
is roughly 1% of the serious head injury problem. Riding in motor
vehicles is about 50% of the problem. Falling around your own home is
roughly 40% of the problem.

Frank is this the current data? If so can you provide the source?

I'd have to really dig for part of it, and I'm not where my reference
papers are. But here's what I recall.

The "50%, 40%" and a few other figures came from some head injury
website. It was in the form of a simple graph. I dug that out about
five years ago.

The "1%" (for bicyclists) came by putting together two sources. One
was a paper published as a chapter in a book on head injury - in fact,
I think the title was just "Head Injury." The chapter was an attempt
to get an accurate estimate of the number of HI injuries and fatalities
in the US. See, it turns out there is no official count, and estimates
vary widely. For example, the number of fatalities due to head injury
has been estimated at everything from about 50,000 to about 115,000.
The author of that paper compared about seven different sources,
examined their methods, and put his best estimate at 56,000 (IIRC). It
was toward the low end of the range.

That gives a number we can use with cyclist data. NHTSA gives reliable
counts of fatalties for motorists, motorcyclists, pedestrians and
bicyclists every year. The counts have been running about 750 or so
for the past few years. (Check their website, and search under
"pedalcyclists."😉

Now, one piece of propaganda that's frequently read is that "75% of
bicycle fatalities involve head injury!!!" (BTW, the figure is above
70% for pedestrians too, and I once saw data that claimed that was true
for _all_ accidental deaths.)

I've learned to be skeptical about such fear-mongering. If a cyclist
has his chest run over by a bus and also gets a scratch on his
forehead, that fatality "involves" a head injury. But still: If we
generously accept that figure, then there are 0.75 * 750 = 563 cyclist
fatlities due to head injury per year in the US, out of 56,000 total
head injury fatalities. That puts cycling at 1%.

In the end, the 50% and 40% are less important in my mind, which is why
I haven't bothered getting perfect details on them. The important
thing is, 99% of the head injury fatality problem has nothing to do
with cycling. Only 1% (probably less) is due to cycling.

If you like, I'll give complete citations for the Head Injury book and
its chapter on head injury epidemiology when I'm back at my files.

- Frank Krygowski

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Edward Dolan said:

I maintain that you have to wear something on your head when you go
cycling.
Therefore, it might as well be some kind of helmet.

Wait - did you not examine the links I posted? There are many people
pictured who did were _not_ wearing anything on their heads when
cycling. That's proof that you _don't_ have to.

[...]

Anyone who does not wear SOMETHING on their blasted head when in the great
out of doors is uncivilized. If you were civilized you would know this much
at least. But you are a barbarian and a savage who goes about the world
uncovered. You belong in New Guinea, not the Western World.

In the good old days, a gentleman of culture and leisure such as myself
would not be caught dead out of doors without SOMETHING on his blasted head.
I blame President Kennedy for setting in motion this penchant for not
wearing anything on your blasted head. Frank, I urge you, put SOMETHING on
that blasted head of yours, most especially when you are riding your bike.
Otherwise, you will look like the dork and the jerk that you are.

I am also of the notion that grown men should not be wearing baseball style
of caps. They are for nerdy teenagers, not dignified men of the world. Go
back to the 1930's if you would know what we should be wearing on our
blasted heads.

Quoted message said:

- Frank Krygowski

Have you ever thought of doing something about your name? Krygowski looks
dumb. It is way too Slavic. All the Slavic languages are an abomination. I
don't know which is worse, Polish or Russian. The sooner the world gets
Anglicized and Americanized, the better. Why not do something useful
(instead of blathering about bike helmets) and get a name change. All those
consonants look ridiculous. God only knows how it is pronounced.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Edward Dolan said:

Anyone who does not wear SOMETHING on their blasted head when in the great
out of doors is uncivilized. If you were civilized you would know this much
at least. But you are a barbarian and a savage who goes about the world
uncovered. You belong in New Guinea, not the Western World.

In the good old days, a gentleman of culture and leisure such as myself
would not be caught dead out of doors without SOMETHING on his blasted head.
I blame President Kennedy for setting in motion this penchant for not
wearing anything on your blasted head. Frank, I urge you, put SOMETHING on
that blasted head of yours, most especially when you are riding your bike.
Otherwise, you will look like the dork and the jerk that you are.

I am also of the notion that grown men should not be wearing baseball style
of caps. They are for nerdy teenagers, not dignified men of the world. Go
back to the 1930's if you would know what we should be wearing on our
blasted heads.

Quoted message said:

- Frank Krygowski

Have you ever thought of doing something about your name? Krygowski looks
dumb. It is way too Slavic. All the Slavic languages are an abomination. I
don't know which is worse, Polish or Russian. The sooner the world gets
Anglicized and Americanized, the better. Why not do something useful
(instead of blathering about bike helmets) and get a name change. All those
consonants look ridiculous. God only knows how it is pronounced.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Oh, I see now.

<PLONK>

- Frank Krygowski

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

NYC XYZ said:

Hell, forget about killed -- I'd always maintained that at least then
my problems would be over! I'm worried about crippled, as in paralyzed
or brain-impaired!

There is no conclusive evidence that helmets have reduced serious head
injuries in any population of cyclists. Cripples, paralyzed and brain
damaged all count as "serious" in my book.

[...]

There is no conclusive evidence that Peter Clinch ever had a brain in his
stupid head. If you listen to this imbecile you will end up dead and
deservedly so.

Quoted message said:

Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Have look at his signature. I mean really look at it. Do you want to take
advice from someone this screwed up?

For a proper signature I refer you to mine.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

HH said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
<snip>

Quoted message said:

... On the other hand I generally don't read
helmet threads (they make my hair hurt) so I don't know the tons of
statistics, lies, and damned lies that are batted about.

Nor the accurate data, obviously.

- Frank Krygowski

Thank you so much sharing your your accurate data and for straightening me
out on this issue.

"HH" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

HH said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
<snip>
>
... On the other hand I generally don't read
helmet threads (they make my hair hurt) so I don't know the tons of
statistics, lies, and damned lies that are batted about.

Nor the accurate data, obviously.

- Frank Krygowski

Thank you so much sharing your your accurate data and for straightening me
out on this issue.

The only accurate data Frank K. is in charge of is the buzzing in his own
head. I think there is a fly inside there and it is causing him to babble
senselessly about helmets.

Anyone who takes any of this helmet vs. no helmet [censored] seriously has got
rocks in their heads. One thing is for sure, we cyclists are way too stupid
to ever figure it out. I give you Frank K. as an example of the subspecies -
[censored] cyclist stupidus.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Edward Dolan said:

Anyone who does not wear SOMETHING on their blasted head when in the
great
out of doors is uncivilized. If you were civilized you would know this
much
at least. But you are a barbarian and a savage who goes about the world
uncovered. You belong in New Guinea, not the Western World.

In the good old days, a gentleman of culture and leisure such as myself
would not be caught dead out of doors without SOMETHING on his blasted
head.
I blame President Kennedy for setting in motion this penchant for not
wearing anything on your blasted head. Frank, I urge you, put SOMETHING
on
that blasted head of yours, most especially when you are riding your
bike.
Otherwise, you will look like the dork and the jerk that you are.

I am also of the notion that grown men should not be wearing baseball
style
of caps. They are for nerdy teenagers, not dignified men of the world. Go
back to the 1930's if you would know what we should be wearing on our
blasted heads.

Quoted message said:

- Frank Krygowski

Have you ever thought of doing something about your name? Krygowski looks
dumb. It is way too Slavic. All the Slavic languages are an abomination.
I
don't know which is worse, Polish or Russian. The sooner the world gets
Anglicized and Americanized, the better. Why not do something useful
(instead of blathering about bike helmets) and get a name change. All
those
consonants look ridiculous. God only knows how it is pronounced.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Oh, I see now.

<PLONK>

- Frank Krygowski

Ah! My first conquest on RBM.

Thank God that moron is gone from here. Now I can tell the rest of you what
I think of his imbecilic messages without any interference from him. That is
ever the fate of kill filers - dumb unto death.

His name is such that it is a wonder to me that he can even spell it
correctly, but how would any of the rest of us know. I will refer to him as
Frank K. since I am not going dither over all those ridiculous consonants.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

SMS said:

Quoted message said:

This does not really follow unless you are suggesting that a high level
of education makes one more vunerable to propaganda - which if the
propaganda is in written form may be true 🙂

It's a low level of education that makes people not understand the
difference between causation and correlation.

But if your highly educated riders wore helmets because they thought
that helmets were protecting them it suggests that they were buying the
propaganada for, as you are (or should be anyway) aware, most studies
other than junk science like the Thompson, Rivara and Thompson (1989)
do not support the premise that helmets prevent injuries.

Quoted message said:

Most of the junk science regarding helmets relies on a disconnect with
logical thought.

Oh you have read TR&T '89. Well done. I hope you noticed the OR's for
the 'control' groups comparisons. Embarassing that something that bad
was published isn't it?

Quoted message said:

A statement such as "cycling injuries/deaths went up after a helmet law
was passed, so helmets are not necessary" shows a lack of understanding
of correlation versus causation that a more educated person would not
fall for.

Strangely enough our statement seems to show that you do not
understand the nature of statistical correlation or the nature of
scientific proof.

I.e. "I must say I've enjoyed my cycling a lot more since I

Quoted message said:

found out how necessary they aren't and stopped wearing one." I'm not
sure if this poster was being sarcastic and trolling, or if he really
has fallen for the junk science.

No I suspect like me he has actually read and understood the reseach.
And to use the dreaded anecdote 🙂 I have been damn near killed or
seriously injured because I was wearing a helmet when cycling. They
may have their uses, possibly in aggressive off-road riding which I
don't do but I find that they are really too dangerous to wear under
normal circumstances.
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

HH said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

HH said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
<snip>
>
... On the other hand I generally don't read
helmet threads (they make my hair hurt) so I don't know the tons of
statistics, lies, and damned lies that are batted about.

Nor the accurate data, obviously.

- Frank Krygowski

Thank you so much sharing your your accurate data and for straightening me
out on this issue.

I suspect that Frank was being a bit sarcastic because all too often a
helmet zealot claims that he/she (or sometimes it?) claims that "A
helmet saved my life" and transfered it to the gravel in the hair
statement. It is quite likely that a helmet may protect against minor
scrapes and gravel hair (TM) but there is no reason to think that a
piece of flimsy styrofoam is going to do any real good in a serious
crash.

The population level statistics from Australia and New Zealand are
pretty clear on this. Mandatory helmet use (enforced) in Australia
increased injury rates while in NZ a study before a mandatory law came
into effect managed to show that increasing helmet usage voluntarily
(from about 20-30 % to about 80% IIRC) did not reduce head injury
rates.

A study in Canada about 3 years ago managed to show that an enforced
MHL reduced head injuries by almost 50% Unforunately the authors didn't
seem to notice that their own figures also showed that the number of
cyclists had declined by about 60%.

If you are interested in the topic have a look at
http://www.cyclehelmets.org/ (very good source of information but
definately not in favour of mandatory helmet legislation) and
http://www.bhsi.org/ (As far as I can see mainly propoganda but it may
have some useful information) a definately pro-mandatory helmet
legislation site.

At the moment most of the research that is used to support a mandatory
helmet legislation stand is, to use a technical term, pretty crappy.
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

HH said:

Thank you so much sharing your your accurate data and for straightening me
out on this issue.

Most of the data I' ve posted recently has been in the thread "
Invisible Cyclists in Solstice Dark" on r.b.misc. (Yes, the thread was
diverted into a helmet discussion.) But if there's data you want, let
me know.

Alternately, you can visit http://www.cyclehelmets.org/ and get good
data, with citations of the original papers plus extensive discussion.

- Frank Krygowski

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

SMS said:

Quoted message said:

This does not really follow unless you are suggesting that a high level
of education makes one more vunerable to propaganda - which if the
propaganda is in written form may be true 🙂

It's a low level of education that makes people not understand the
difference between causation and correlation.

But if your highly educated riders wore helmets because they thought
that helmets were protecting them it suggests that they were buying the
propaganada for, as you are (or should be anyway) aware, most studies
other than junk science like the Thompson, Rivara and Thompson (1989)
do not support the premise that helmets prevent injuries.

It is always best to follow what highly educated people are doing and not
what morons and ignorant slobs are doing. Elementary, my dear Watson!
[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A statement such as "cycling injuries/deaths went up after a helmet law
was passed, so helmets are not necessary" shows a lack of understanding
of correlation versus causation that a more educated person would not
fall for.

Strangely enough our statement seems to show that you do not
understand the nature of statistical correlation or the nature of
scientific proof.

No one, least of all John Kane of the Tricolour, knows anything at all about
statistics. This is a well known scientific fact.

Quoted message said:

I.e. "I must say I've enjoyed my cycling a lot more since I

Quoted message said:

found out how necessary they aren't and stopped wearing one." I'm not
sure if this poster was being sarcastic and trolling, or if he really
has fallen for the junk science.

No I suspect like me he has actually read and understood the reseach.
And to use the dreaded anecdote 🙂 I have been damn near killed or
seriously injured because I was wearing a helmet when cycling. They
may have their uses, possibly in aggressive off-road riding which I
don't do but I find that they are really too dangerous to wear under
normal circumstances.
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

Anecdotal evidence counts too! The number of cyclists who believe they have
been saved from serious harm by wearing a helmet is too overwhelming to be
ignored except by dunderheads like yourself. You really should just shut up
as you may very well be contributing to the future death of some poor slob
who is actually listening to your nonsense.

The best thing that John Kane of the Tricolour could do is to immerse
himself in an Emergency Room for a year or so. There he would discover that
cycling without a helmet makes about as much sense as driving a car without
a seat belt. But who are you going to listen to, these freaks who don't
believe in helmets or the overwhelming consensus of experts who advise us to
wear a helmet when cycling.

I am convinced that these freaks who do not like helmets do not like them
because it musses up their hair. They imagine that their hair is more
important than their lives. And they may well be right about that. I mean,
just what kind of folks are these anyway who counsel death and destruction.
They should all be taken out and given a good thrashing.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Quoted message said:

Edward Dolan said:

I maintain that you have to wear something on your head when you go cycling.
Therefore, it might as well be some kind of helmet.

Wait - did you not examine the links I posted? There are many people
pictured who did were _not_ wearing anything on their heads when
cycling. That's proof that you _don't_ have to.

Quoted message said:

PS. Yes, I am intolerant of the kind of ignorance that is daily displayed on
Usenet.

Then why contribute to it?

If you're going to make pronouncements about what people must wear, at
least learn enough about the issue to avoid looking totally foolish.

- Frank Krygowski

Hi Frank. If you have noticed Ed Dolan's posting history you realize
he has absolutely no aversions to appearing foolish.

Indiana Mike

On 6 Jan 2006 09:07:28 -0800, [email hidden] wrote:
(snip)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Oh, I see now.

<PLONK>

- Frank Krygowski

Now you've done it Frank. The man behind the curtain detests those who
use kill files. He may even add your name to the list he trots out
when he expouses on the subject.

And yes, I know just how much his opinion will bother you.

I just hope you will be able to sleep at night, knowing the trouble
you've caused.

Indiana Mike

"Mike Rice" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Edward Dolan said:

I maintain that you have to wear something on your head when you go
cycling.
Therefore, it might as well be some kind of helmet.

Wait - did you not examine the links I posted? There are many people
pictured who did were _not_ wearing anything on their heads when
cycling. That's proof that you _don't_ have to.

Quoted message said:

PS. Yes, I am intolerant of the kind of ignorance that is daily
displayed on
Usenet.

Then why contribute to it?

If you're going to make pronouncements about what people must wear, at
least learn enough about the issue to avoid looking totally foolish.

- Frank Krygowski

Hi Frank. If you have noticed Ed Dolan's posting history you realize
he has absolutely no aversions to appearing foolish.

Indiana Mike

Frank K. has already kill filed me. I made short work of him. These RBM guys
got no staying power at all. Just say boo to them and they run and hide.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:43:09 -0600, "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]>
wrote:
(snip)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Oh, I see now.

<PLONK>

- Frank Krygowski

Ah! My first conquest on RBM.

....

Quoted message said:

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

I knew Mr. Dolan was aware he was cross-posting, something he has
claimed to never do. And now I see why. He thirsts for new blood,
having successfully (in secret partnership with Mr. Ed Gin) drained
most of the life from our home stomping grounds, ARBR.

Now if he would only go for the challenge and start haunting only your
group! As he would say, 'Oh happy day!'

Indiana Mike

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:31:15 -0600, "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Anyone who takes any of this helmet vs. no helmet [censored] seriously has got
rocks in their heads. One thing is for sure, we cyclists are way too stupid
to ever figure it out. I give you Frank K. as an example of the subspecies -
[censored] cyclist stupidus.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Ed, you've hit the nail on the (helmeted) head here!

We need to wear styro hats while cycling, and really should at all
times, if for no other reason than to keep those rocks on the inside
where they belong.

Indiana MIke

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:11:47 -0600, "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]>
wrote:
(snip)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Have look at his signature. I mean really look at it. Do you want to take
advice from someone this screwed up?

For a proper signature I refer you to mine.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
or
Mr. Ed

Has it occured to Mr. Dolan that Peter Clinch might be posting from a
computer he also uses to communicate with his professional contacts?

As an ex-librarian who has often expressed pride in being too lazy to
ever look anything up I would think that you would understand someone
not wanting to bother with separate sig's for separate purposes.

Sometimes I really wonder about your mental health, Oh Grate One.

Indiana Mike

Hayvern said:

I have a nice 3 inch scar in my forehead from a bicycle crash in 1977.
This scar would have been avoided had I been wearing a helmet. Yeah, I
look like a dork, but 25 stitches in my forehead was not a lot of fun
either.

I took a bad fall several years ago and bounced my helmeted head off
the pavement hard enough to break the helmet. I am quite grateful that
the helmet absorbed some of the impact my head would have had I not
been wearing a helmet. My scalp is also grateful that it did not have
to be abraded by the blacktop.

If some folks want to ride without helmets, they should have the right
to do so without the government telling them otherwise. As for me, my
helmets are light enough that I hardly notice them and my experience
has proven to me that they do provide a level of protection that I am
glad to have.

[censored] Durbin

"Mike Rice" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:31:15 -0600, "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Anyone who takes any of this helmet vs. no helmet [censored] seriously has got
rocks in their heads. One thing is for sure, we cyclists are way too
stupid
to ever figure it out. I give you Frank K. as an example of the
subspecies -
[censored] cyclist stupidus.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Ed, you've hit the nail on the (helmeted) head here!

We need to wear styro hats while cycling, and really should at all
times, if for no other reason than to keep those rocks on the inside
where they belong.

Indiana MIke

Yes, Mike, to go about bareheaded is uncivilized as well as being uncouth.
Only a savage and a barbarian like Frank K. would sink that low. What is the
world coming to, I ask you. Well, I don't know about you, but I am going to
leave this vale of tears soon where gentlemen such as myself can no longer
wear a man's HAT. Screw these ridiculous baseball caps all the way to Hell
and back! They are for nerdy teenagers, not for Great Ones like Ed Dolan.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota