Night running with a light

Definitely go with a bright light. It not only let's you see where you're going, but gives me
something to aim at when I'm driving home from the bar.

Jon said:

With winter on its way and my night running schedule I need to come up with a good way to see
where I am going in the dark. I use a 3 bulb LED head band light and it seems to reflect a lot of
light off rain, fog, breath and falling snow. Snow really sucks, cant really see the ground becase
of all the light reflecting off the falling snow. Last winter whenever it snowed I used the mill,
this year I do not want to use that POS. I have tried wearing the light around my waist and around
my chest to try to keep the light low, but that didnt work. I like the light so I can see whats
coming up, pot hole, snowdrift, ice, roadkill or what ever might suck if I hit it. Any ideas?

More LEDs in the light and green light. I didn't get a good test in falling snow or fog last winter
since we had so little nor have I tested head vs waist position, but an ultrarunner in Oregon speaks
highly of green lights in fog. And I've seen several positive comments about the green.

On trail sections that I needed to see, I was most comfortable with a light width that lighted both
distance (but might be difficult to see this far in heavy snow) and near. With the lights I had, I
sometimes used the headlight (distance) plus a handheld (closer) to provide a nice oval beam.

Many trail runners seem to be going with a minimum of 7 lights in their LEDs. The width of the beam
may make a difference also. Some models claim to focus the light (I've got one of those that doesn't
work well, but others have had luck with other brands), but sometimes seeing the side trail coming
in from the side is nice, esp. if it's the one that leads home and your on your homeward leg.

I did use a 4-LED white, 4-LED green, and a 7-LED white last winter and preferred the 7-LED with the
broader beam if I needed to see side trails, but the 4-LED green was reasonably good on easy trail
in light fog.

When running on roads (actually bike path adjacent to road), I used to use a 1-LED light to see when
somebody's highbeams blinded me, and that was totally inadequate on snow except as emergency light.
No contrast at all.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

A flash light in your hand? Any light source that is illuminating the subject close to the same
angle as your eyes see it will do this. The further away the better. However it is not really easy
with snow.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

"Jon" <jon.j.marshall@koops(nospam).com> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

With winter on its way and my night running schedule I need to come up

with

Quoted message said:

a good way to see where I am going in the dark. I use a 3 bulb LED head band light and it seems to
reflect a lot of light off rain, fog, breath

and

Quoted message said:

falling snow. Snow really sucks, cant really see the ground becase of all the light reflecting off
the falling snow. Last winter whenever it snowed

I

Quoted message said:

used the mill, this year I do not want to use that POS. I have tried wearing the light around my
waist and around my chest to try to keep the light low, but that didnt work. I like the light so I
can see whats

coming

Quoted message said:

up, pot hole, snowdrift, ice, roadkill or what ever might suck if I hit

it.

Quoted message said:

Any ideas?

Thanks Jon

Quoted message said:

Many trail runners seem to be going with a minimum of 7 lights in their LEDs. The width of the
beam may make a difference also. Some models claim to focus the light (I've got one of those that
doesn't work well, but others have had luck with other brands), but sometimes seeing the side
trail coming in from the side is nice, esp. if it's the one that leads home and your on your
homeward leg.

I did use a 4-LED white, 4-LED green, and a 7-LED white last winter and preferred the 7-LED with
the broader beam if I needed to see side trails, but the 4-LED green was reasonably good on easy
trail in light fog.

When running on roads (actually bike path adjacent to road), I used to use a 1-LED light to see
when somebody's highbeams blinded me, and that was totally inadequate on snow except as emergency
light. No contrast at all.

Dot

Hey Dot.... I've been looking at LED head lamps as well. The only one that caught my eye is a three
LED. My intent was to minimize the size and weight. I dont want a battery back around my waist, in
my pocket, or on my head. (the three LED uses two or three AAA's, within the light)

In any case, what do you think about using such an animal on a trail? (Forest trail, the only light
would be from the moon)

For many reasons I am not able to run this trail more than a couple times a month, and hesitate in
investing more than 20-40 bucks.

I defer to your experience...illuminate me.

Leo

How about an amber colored light? The only time we see snow around here the whole damn state shuts
down (cept for amarillo) so i've never been running in it, nor do i do any trail running. But amber
lights typically do a pretty good job cutting through meteorogical obstruction, notice the yellowish
color from most streetlamps nowdays, no longer the bluish silver of the mercury halide lamps, but a
yellowish tint from sodium vapor, and they are much easier to see through fog/rain/whatever than the
old ones ever were (and aside from energy savings is the reason most cities changed to them). Also
notice hunting and sport optics, many include a yellow filter for foul weather to help with
visibility, and it is noticable... but i haven't seen many amber led's think i saw a noname brand
one with two white one amber but can't remember the make and price of it.......

"Jon" <jon.j.marshall@koops(nospam).com> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

With winter on its way and my night running schedule I need to come up

with

Quoted message said:

a good way to see where I am going in the dark. I use a 3 bulb LED head band light and it seems to
reflect a lot of light off rain, fog, breath

and

Quoted message said:

falling snow. Snow really sucks, cant really see the ground becase of all the light reflecting off
the falling snow. Last winter whenever it snowed

I

Quoted message said:

used the mill, this year I do not want to use that POS. I have tried wearing the light around my
waist and around my chest to try to keep the light low, but that didnt work. I like the light so I
can see whats

coming

Quoted message said:

up, pot hole, snowdrift, ice, roadkill or what ever might suck if I hit

it.

Quoted message said:

Any ideas?

Thanks Jon

Jon said:

With winter on its way and my night running schedule I need to come up with a good way to see
where I am going in the dark. I use a 3 bulb LED head band light and it seems to reflect a lot of
light off rain, fog, breath and falling snow. Snow really sucks, cant really see the ground becase
of all the light reflecting off the falling snow. Last winter whenever it snowed I used the mill,
this year I do not want to use that POS. I have tried wearing the light around my waist and around
my chest to try to keep the light low, but that didnt work. I like the light so I can see whats
coming up, pot hole, snowdrift, ice, roadkill or what ever might suck if I hit it. Any ideas?

I never have used any light in snow so I can't comment on color vs reflection/refraction. I do have
a bit of race experience with running for hours at night in races. I found the 3 led was fine for
smooth trail or dirt road but not very helpful on lumpy single track. When I have been running for
12+ hours I prefer lots of light and care very little about weight. I currently use and love a 10
LED Lightwave white light. Three C batteries but I can see every pebble and find the trail markers
with ease.

--
Doug Freese [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

I never have used any light in snow so I can't comment on color vs reflection/refraction. I do
have a bit of race experience with running for hours at night in races. I found the 3 led was fine
for smooth trail or dirt road but not very helpful on lumpy single track. When I have been running
for 12+ hours I prefer lots of light and care very little about weight. I currently use and love a
10 LED Lightwave white light. Three C batteries but I can see every pebble and find the trail
markers with ease.

Doug, I'm trying to get a little perspective on what you would consider a "lumpy single track". This
might help me make a decision... The only trail that I know I have ran on that you have been on is
Bull Run in northern VA. In the dark, would you use a 3 or 10 LED on that trail?

Thanks Leo

As far as the color goes, there is little difference in snow.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jon said:

With winter on its way and my night running schedule I need to come up

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a good way to see where I am going in the dark. I use a 3 bulb LED head band light and it seems
to reflect a lot of light off rain, fog, breath

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

falling snow. Snow really sucks, cant really see the ground becase of

all

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the light reflecting off the falling snow. Last winter whenever it

snowed I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

used the mill, this year I do not want to use that POS. I have tried wearing the light around my
waist and around my chest to try to keep the light low, but that didnt work. I like the light so
I can see whats

coming

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

up, pot hole, snowdrift, ice, roadkill or what ever might suck if I hit

it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Any ideas?

I never have used any light in snow so I can't comment on color vs reflection/refraction. I do
have a bit of race experience with running for hours at night in races. I found the 3 led was fine
for smooth trail or dirt road but not very helpful on lumpy single track. When I have been running
for 12+ hours I prefer lots of light and care very little about weight. I currently use and love a
10 LED Lightwave white light. Three C batteries but I can see every pebble and find the trail
markers with ease.

--
Doug Freese [email hidden]

Leo said:

Hey Dot.... I've been looking at LED head lamps as well. The only one that caught my eye is a
three LED. My intent was to minimize the size and weight. I dont want a battery back around my
waist, in my pocket, or on my head.

duh, where's that leave? 😉 other than a flashlight.

(the three LED uses two or three AAA's,

Quoted message said:

within the light)

oh, ok. You're referring to a separate battery pack, not the ones that are in one unit with the
light. (sorry, long day today)

Quoted message said:

In any case, what do you think about using such an animal on a trail? (Forest trail, the only
light would be from the moon)

A lot would depend on how smooth the trail may be, but *I* probably wouldn't go with a 3-led light
on my trails on moonless night, but that's me. Other people run their trails with 3 leds and are
happy. I also noticed in other running groups some people that said they got by fine with the 3-led,
then later were looking for something with more light for more complex trails. With snow on the
ground, esp. with some moonlight, sometimes less artificial light is needed (I turned my lights off
during portions of runs last year). But sometimes a lot of contrast is needed. Since we didn't have
much snow or cold weather last year, I never got a chance to test my lights (or hydration bladder
for that matter) to the extent I wanted and didn't have a night run longer than about 50 min. So
while what I have *seems* to work for me, it's not thoroughly tested and there's definitely some
weaknesses.

I find the 4-led (Lightwave 2000, about $40 last year for headlamp version = Illuminator; $26 for
flashlight) to be the least amount of light I think I'd be comfortable with on easy trails with no
navigation (trail intersection) issues (ah, yes, there's a story behind that caveat). My 7 led
(Fusion, but it's pricey if you pay list, which I didn't) has all kinds of settings and requires a
phd to operate, but does provide a wider beam, which is nice for navigation. Actually, iirc, I can
set it to the most likely setting and not have to touch it.

Also, I limited my search to lights that could use AA lithium cells because of their performance in
cold weather and storage life (about 10 yrs). There are 1 or 2 companies whose lights take AA, but a
couple companies recommend against using lithiums in them (some weirdness in their design). Since
LED lights drain batteries less than regular bulbs, I'm not sure if alkaline batteries give
reasonable performance or not with LEDs in subzero F weather. But I fought with alkaline batteries
for too many years with bike lights for 10-min rides to/from office to even be willing to consider
alkaline for running. Rechargeable NiMH AA (not sure if available in AAA or not) seem to work
reasonably well in cold weather but haven't tested them for an hour or more in my bike light. Note
that primary batteries like lithium generally don't leak energy like rechargeables do.

Also, if running on trails in the dark, you might want to take 2 lights
- 1 as a backup or if you had to fix something in your primary. I carry a single LED photon light
or similar in my pants pocket on *all* winter runs, even ones when I'm anticipating being back
in daylight.

I also wanted a green light for night vision as well as better contrast in snow and fog. But also
have a white light to discern colors if needed.

Places to look for info about LED lights ledmuseum.home.att.netledleft.htmOpen ↗
glow-bug.comglow-bug.comOpen ↗ members.misty.comledx.htmlOpen ↗

I learned more about LED lights (like different capabilities of different colors - efficiencies,
angles, etc) than I ever imagined last winter while looking, but much of my info is probably out
dated by now.

Another thought for saving money is that if you have a hat or a headband or something, maybe you
could get a cheaper flashlight and attach it somehow - might be cheaper than headlamp if you're only
going to use it 1 or 2x a month. I use my "did-not-work-for-me" gear in my field work or other
activities.

Have fun. 🙂

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Leo said:

Doug, I'm trying to get a little perspective on what you would consider a "lumpy single track".
This might help me make a decision... The only trail that I know I have ran on that you have been
on is Bull Run in northern VA.

One of classiest races on the east coast. You won't need the light for this race or are you stepping
up to a longer distance? 🙂

Quoted message said:

In the dark, would you use a 3 or 10 LED on that trail?

This is hard to answer. There are some sections that the three would work just fine. There are some
by the stream that are very rocky with roots that I would want more light. There is two sides to
lighting, seeing the footing and the markers. The markers in most cases, maybe all, are on the
trees. When you lift the weaker three LED to catch the markers you will have no light on the trail.

I also like Dot's choice of the 7 LED and especially if it runs off some number of A's and may be a
best compromise. Forget the notion of battery packs. The LEDs are so efficient the batteries will
last for days and days.

Lights are a little like running shoes. 🙂

--
Doug Freese [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Doug, I'm trying to get a little perspective on what you would consider a "lumpy single track".
This might help me make a decision... The only trail that I know I have ran on that you have been
on is Bull Run in northern VA.

One of classiest races on the east coast. You won't need the light for this race or are you
stepping up to a longer distance? 🙂

No way for that distance. I've been on the trail a few times when staying in the area. Loved it and
it is similar to my home trail along the Wabash river.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In the dark, would you use a 3 or 10 LED on that trail?

This is hard to answer. There are some sections that the three would work just fine. There are
some by the stream that are very rocky with roots that I would want more light. There is two
sides to lighting, seeing the footing and the markers. The markers in most cases, maybe all, are
on the trees. When you lift the weaker three LED to catch the markers you will have no light on
the trail.

My trail is fairly "rooty" I usually fall at least once on a 5-8 miler. When I have done it in the
pre-dawn darkness I went reeealllll slow until the sun started to peek out.

Quoted message said:

I also like Dot's choice of the 7 LED and especially if it runs off some number of A's and may be
a best compromise. Forget the notion of battery packs. The LEDs are so efficient the batteries
will last for days and days

Y'all may be right. I tried on the 3 LED in the dark back room closet of the store. It was
just fair. .

Quoted message said:

Lights are a little like running shoes. 🙂

So I see. thanks for the help!

Leo

Quoted message said:

duh, where's that leave? 😉 other than a flashlight.

Sigh..so cruel....

Quoted message said:

(the three LED uses two or three AAA's,

Quoted message said:

within the light)

oh, ok. You're referring to a separate battery pack, not the ones that are in one unit with the
light. (sorry, long day today)

All is forgiven.

Quoted message said:

Also, if running on trails in the dark, you might want to take 2 lights
- 1 as a backup or if you had to fix something in your primary. I carry a single LED photon light
or similar in my pants pocket on *all* winter runs, even ones when I'm anticipating being back
in daylight.

I also wanted a green light for night vision as well as better contrast in snow and fog. But also
have a white light to discern colors if needed.

Places to look for info about LED lights ledmuseum.home.att.netledleft.htmOpen ↗
glow-bug.comglow-bug.comOpen ↗ members.misty.comledx.htmlOpen ↗

I learned more about LED lights (like different capabilities of different colors - efficiencies,
angles, etc) than I ever imagined last winter while looking, but much of my info is probably out
dated by now.

Another thought for saving money is that if you have a hat or a headband or something, maybe you
could get a cheaper flashlight and attach it somehow - might be cheaper than headlamp if you're
only going to use it 1 or 2x a month. I use my "did-not-work-for-me" gear in my field work or
other activities.

I came real close to getting the 3 LED light cause it was all self contained. I just dont think it
would help all that much on the trail.

At this point I will continue to shop. I really dont have to worry so much about the snow, I use the
roads when we get more than a couple inches.

Thanks a bunch for the help! Leo

first off I am not a laser seller. To your question and a small example of why a red light beam or
hand held red laser. lasor light 1500 yards some I heard go to 3500 yards.(Funny thing) at a local
place I was shining light on people an walk in a man of say some size. I red light him. he scans
room and pulls from his pocket a red beam well size of a 12 gage shotgun. I look down in defeat.
turns out he was (star gazeing.) also good for seeing any thing in a field or on a trail standing.
because when the beam get cut short "well there it is. the ? on beam red light.". mine goes about
1500 yards in real dark skies... do best with no moon. Hunter moon last night and full night night
before. Got a long fast round fox or badger killing chickens. 4 or so feet long. runs then stops
runs fast than stops. He or she snap a branch. Was following me on other side of tree line. Last
terminator night day breaker before it kills a chicken and tried too bury in potato patch. years of
anyways by horse barn turn too dirt. the prey or preditor in question was seen in light of day so
fox most likely. last night before went looking for den. no luck den could be anywhere. this a.m..
got tired of waiting and cold. went back to bed. today another day. The night was nice times sound.
Badger. Fox. other red laser hand held beam is well your choosey. good thing is it do give light
and behind and side of you can not see the beam. only what in path of were you point and push
button. 2 aaa batt and just as wide and a little longer. a belt holdsey two carry. a knife and pen
light I carry along with beam . good security room to room search. Good luck on night runs and stay
on path or your plan route. Look before you shoot. and no what it is and were the beam well go. I
hang in defeat.

Joseph Meehan said:

As far as the color goes, there is little difference in snow.

For curiosity, what colors have you tested? and was it during falling snow and/or on snow-covered
trail? We didn't have enough snow to really test last year and the lack of contrast with 1 white LED
has me keyed in on this issue. (I reconize the multiple LEDs provide more light and changes the
equation from my initial observation.) Thanks.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Doug Freese wrote:

There is two sides to lighting,

Quoted message said:

seeing the footing and the markers. The markers in most cases, maybe all, are on the trees. When
you lift the weaker three LED to catch the markers you will have no light on the trail.

This is one of the reasons I like a vertical oval design, at least with the width (narrowness?) of
my current beams. For now, I combine a headlamp with handheld so I can pick a line through whatever
instead of just seeing a portion of the line.

A 3rd aspect is seeing side trails come in, where a wide beam is helpful. I see trail intersections
with my Fusion (horizontal oval beam) that I don't see with my 4-LED lights. OTOH, I took a wrong
turn in daylight in the same area. (prior tracks in snow emphasize certain trails)

Now maybe the need for a wider vertical oval combined with wider oval just means I need a broader
beam light = more LEDs. Dunno. But since I'm not doing this in a 100-miler, I kinda enjoy the night
atmosphere and running by mininal light WHEN/IF conditions permit. When I get farther along, I'll
probably ask the local ultra folks what they use for their Thursday night bring-ice-axe runs (but
have *no* intention of ever doing one of their runs that needs an ice axe). It wouldn't surpise me
if they use an older, non-LED light.

Doug, a question I've had for you and flashlights, doesn't that swing a lot with your arm motion? Or
is your beam wide enough that it's not a big deal. Aside from the fact that I don't like carrying
things in my hand, when I was testing flashlight last year, I had to alter my arm motion to have a
useful light. I do have a strap on it so I don't have to grip it, although I need something larger
to accommodate mittens. With the headlamp, I use steadiness / bounce as a measure of form (or lack
thereof), but do use the flashlight for tricky areas (hangs on a lanyard and stuffed in a chest
pocket on my shell so it's ready).

THanks.

Quoted message said:

Lights are a little like running shoes. 🙂

Amen!

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Doug Freese said:

I also like Dot's choice of the 7 LED and especially if it runs off some number of A's and may be
a best compromise. Forget the notion of battery packs. The LEDs are so efficient the batteries
will last for days and days.

I have a Streamlight 7LED 4AA that only burns for 5-6 hours. I've heard from others that this is
normal for 7 LEDs & AA batteries (fortunately I did a burn test BEFORE using it at a 100!). It seems
to get the long burn time with that many LEDs, you need at least C batteries. And cold WILL reduce
the burn time of alkaline batteries.
--
- The Trailrunner

Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS*

Trails of The Diablo Valley *Running - Hiking - Nature*
geocities.com6016Open ↗

Dot said:

Doug, a question I've had for you and flashlights, doesn't that swing a lot with your arm motion?
Or is your beam wide enough that it's not a big deal.

I'm not a big arm swinger so I manage to hold the light fairly steady with my minimal motion. By the
time I need a light I'm too numb to swing. 🙂

--
Doug Freese [email hidden]

I have not "tested" anything my self. Back in my college days and in the army I did some study. Here
are a couple of facts, draw your own conclusions.

The human eye is most sensitive to green light

Snow reflects all visible colors of light well.

The direction of light has a great deal to do with how well we can use the light to "see"
things. Reflections can be both good and bad. Generally if it is a clear day light coming form
about the same direction as we are viewing (light source close to our eyes) is good and creates
fewer shadows that may block important parts of the subject. With snow rain or fog, light coming
from another direction is better as the snow, rain or fog will reflect less total light.

In general I believe we can all see "better" with a smooth/continuous spectrum of visible light.
We use colors to see and when the light source is mono colored, we loose that ability and
subjects appear unnatural so we will no recognized them as fast.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

"Dot" <dot.h@#att.net> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Joseph Meehan said:

As far as the color goes, there is little difference in snow.

For curiosity, what colors have you tested? and was it during falling snow and/or on snow-covered
trail? We didn't have enough snow to really test last year and the lack of contrast with 1 white
LED has me keyed in on this issue. (I reconize the multiple LEDs provide more light and changes
the equation from my initial observation.) Thanks.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

The Trailrunner said:

I have a Streamlight 7LED 4AA that only burns for 5-6 hours. I've heard from others that this is
normal for 7 LEDs & AA batteries (fortunately I did a burn test BEFORE using it at a 100!). It
seems to get the long burn time with that many LEDs, you need at least C batteries. And cold WILL
reduce the burn time of alkaline batteries.

Thanks for the data point! Now I don't feel obligated to test alkalines with LEDs.

I don't know how long mine last since I didn't get that many dark runs in and the time is spread
mostly across 2 lights. I'll see if I can rectifiy that situation this winter 🙂 My 7 led model has
several adjustments with an ultrabright level that significantly reduces battery, but a less-bright
that's supposed to burn more efficiently. With lithiums, I *always* carry spares since they maintain
constant output until dead, and then are *really* dead (except for powering kitchen clock).

Not sure which model Streamlight you've got, but someone on ultra list last year told me that pro
polymer is not designed to use lithium AA, as per manufacturer statement. I checked with Lightwave
on mine, and they indicated they were used on Everest with lithiums, which I took as a good
recommendation. After I got my lights, I think I found another brand that doesn't support lithium,
but can't remember which. I think it's related to their circuitry and maybe not being as flexible as
others, but don't remember.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope