Nice light pizza crust - how do I get it?

"myt" wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The crusts are thin, but not cracker-crispy, and certainly
not soggy or

saggy

Quoted message said:

either. The crust is firm enough that if I pick up a
slice by the bag, the piece stays stiff, but it tastes
light and airy.

How do I get pizza crusts like this? I use a bread machine
for the dough and use an electric oven with a pizza stone.
Any suggestions on ingredients or technique would be
appreciated.

What I do is make sure the oven is as hot as I can get it.
My oven maxes out at 550 F. I preheat the oven at 550 for at
least 45 minutes before putting in the pizza. Often I
preheat for an hour. I then slide the pizza onto the stone
and cook for at 550 for 8 to 10 minutes. Make sure you leave
it in long enough. Don't be afraid of a few "burnt" looking
spots on the crust or cheese. To me, a good pizza comes out
of the oven not very long before it burns.

I'm assuming that you are shaping the dough thin enough to
start with and that you are putting the pizza directly on
the stone and not on a pan. I know that some use those pans
with holes in the bottom to get a crispy crust, but I've
never tried one so have no experience with them.

-Mike

myt said:

There's a restaurant I go to that makes the best pizzas.
The crusts are thin, but not cracker-crispy, and certainly
not soggy or saggy either. The crust is firm enough that if
I pick up a slice by the bag, the piece stays stiff, but it
tastes light and airy. It's fantastic.

How do I get pizza crusts like this? I use a bread machine
for the dough and use an electric oven with a pizza stone.
Any suggestions on ingredients or technique would be
appreciated.

Get rid of the bread machine. It overworks the dough, and
kneads it in the wrong way.

The electric oven might be okay if it can reach the 800F+
temperatures of a wood- or coal-fired oven. If the stone is
close to the element, which itself will be above 800F when
it is hot enough to glow, then you have a chance.

( home.att.netsmf SNOpen ↗
Metals.html has a fair picture of the colors...)

But your thermostat will fight you, because your home oven
is not designed to hold that kind of heat. I wouldn't
recommend trying to defeat it, either.

At those temperatures, the water in the dough boils out on
contact with the stone very rapidly, and the steaming
action creates the crispy outer crust (as on a water-bun),
but only at the surface, making it crispy but not tough (as
a water-bun).

--Blair "By the 'bag'?"

myt said:

How do I get pizza crusts like this? I use a bread machine
for the dough and use an electric oven with a pizza stone.
Any suggestions on ingredients or technique would be
appreciated.

Hi everyone, I'm new here so my apologies if I break forum
ettiquette. Is there an FAQ?

Here goes anyway, I have a related question.

I use a pizza stone, and love the way my pizzas come out but
I have a rather strange technique because there is something
I don't know how to do properly. The question is, how do I
get my shaped dough onto the pre-heated stone without
burning myself?

Here's what I do now:

Make dough, let it rise. Shape it - I like it very thin -
on a pan. Add sauce and toppings. Place the pan in the pre-
heated 550° oven on top of pizza stone. I let the pizza
cook for a few minutes until the dough has firmed up a
little. I then slide it off the pan onto the stone.
Complete cooking on stone.

My dough is very soft and tends to stretch & tear if I try
to move it around after shaping, so I haven't figured out
how to get the totally raw dough onto the hot stone. The few
times I've tried it, the dough's stretched, torn and folded
over on itself. It tasted fine, but it wasn't pleasing to
the eye. I love my dough recipe as the taste of it is
wonderful, but I do really like the crispy crust that the
stone gives me & I would love to cut out that extra step.
Would corn meal and a peel help me with this? I don't want
to invest in a peel if it won't help. I tried cornmeal on
the pan as I shaped the dough, but all it did was stick to
it. The dough did not slide off the pan, so I had to follow
my usual technique now with added cornmeal on the bottom of
my pizza (not necesarily a bad thing). Maybe I didn't use
enough? Any other suggestions?

Thanks.

--
-Andrea

Mike Pearce said:

"myt" wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The crusts are thin, but not cracker-crispy, and
certainly not soggy or

saggy

Quoted message said:

either. The crust is firm enough that if I pick up a
slice by the bag, the piece stays stiff, but it tastes
light and airy.

How do I get pizza crusts like this? I use a bread
machine for the dough and use an electric oven with a
pizza stone. Any suggestions on ingredients or technique
would be appreciated.

What I do is make sure the oven is as hot as I can get it.
My oven maxes out at 550 F. I preheat the oven at 550 for
at least 45 minutes before putting in the pizza. Often I
preheat for an hour. I then slide the pizza onto the stone
and cook for at 550 for 8 to 10 minutes. Make sure you
leave it in long enough. Don't be afraid of a few "burnt"
looking spots on the crust or cheese. To me, a good pizza
comes out of the oven not very long before it burns.

I'm assuming that you are shaping the dough thin enough to
start with and that you are putting the pizza directly on
the stone and not on a pan. I know that some use those pans
with holes in the bottom to get a crispy crust, but I've
never tried one so have no experience with them.

-Mike

Yes, I put the pizza directly on a preheated pizza stone.

I have normally put just the crust and stone in the oven for
5-6 minutes, then pulled them out and covered with sauce and
toppings. Are you saying this is the wrong technique to use?

My cheese - Sargento mozzerella from the grocery store - is
usually more brown than nicely melted and stringy when I'm
done, and I normally use a 400-450 degree oven.

Any other tips to try?

What about sauce? I use a can of "tomato sauce" from the
store, which obviously doesn't taste nearly as good as some
of the best pizza sauce I've ever had.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Blair P. Houghton said:

myt said:

How do I get pizza crusts like this?

The electric oven might be okay if it can reach the 800F+
temperatures of a wood- or coal-fired oven. If the stone is
close to the element, which itself will be above 800F when
it is hot enough to glow, then you have a chance.

...

Quoted message said:

But your thermostat will fight you, because your home oven
is not designed to hold that kind of heat. I wouldn't
recommend trying to defeat it, either.

Hmmm... Self-cleaning ovens go up to 800 or so, I think,
during the cleaning cycle.

Unfortunately, they all latch the door so you can't get into
them when they're up to proper pizza-cooking temperature.
But the oven is designed to hold that kind of heat for long
enough to ash the food residue inside.

(Defeating the cleaning latch is likewise not recommended.)

--
"Centralization doesn't scale." Mike Van Pelt -- Eric S.
Raymond mvp at calweb.com KE6BVH

AndreaS said:

Would corn meal and a peel help me with this? I don't
want to invest in a peel if it won't help.

Don't waste your money. Use a cookie sheet (the kind with no
sides, of course).

Quoted message said:

I tried cornmeal on the pan as I shaped the dough, but
all it did was stick to it. The dough did not slide off
the pan, so I had to follow my usual technique now with
added cornmeal on the bottom of my pizza (not necesarily
a bad thing). Maybe I didn't use enough? Any other
suggestions?

Cornmeal (I like the coarse/polenta grind best) works as
does flour. Be generous and work fast because your dough
rises quickly in a warm kitchen. I use a cake spatula to
make sure it's loose and then shake it back and forth on the
pan (I use a cookie sheet). When it wiggles freely, you can
can slide it easily onto the stone.

Note: To get it onto the stone, you need to
practice/perfect the same type of motion that
professional chefs/cooks use to turn pancakes &
other stuff.

Practice safe eating - always use condiments

AndreaS said:

I use a pizza stone, and love the way my pizzas come out
but I have a

rather

Quoted message said:

strange technique because there is something I don't know
how to do properly. The question is, how do I get my
shaped dough onto the

pre-heated

Quoted message said:

stone without burning myself?

Another way of baking almost directly on the stone without a
pan is to form the dough on a sheet of parchment, then slide
that onto the peel, then off the peel onto the hot stone in
the oven. The parchment doesn't interfere too much with
getting the desired crispness in the crust.

This works pretty good for those of us that have trouble
mastering the correct motion for getting a naked pizza off
the peel onto the stone.

The really hot oven preheated for a long time definitely
makes a big difference too for the crust.

"myt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Pearce said:

"myt" wrote in message

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The crusts are thin, but not cracker-crispy, and
certainly not soggy or

saggy

Quoted message said:

either. The crust is firm enough that if I pick up a
slice by the bag, the piece stays stiff, but it tastes
light and airy.

How do I get pizza crusts like this? I use a bread
machine for the dough and use an electric oven with a
pizza stone. Any suggestions on ingredients or
technique would be appreciated.

What I do is make sure the oven is as hot as I can get
it. My oven maxes

out

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

at 550 F. I preheat the oven at 550 for at least 45
minutes before

putting

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in the pizza. Often I preheat for an hour. I then slide
the pizza onto

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

stone and cook for at 550 for 8 to 10 minutes. Make sure
you leave it in long enough. Don't be afraid of a few
"burnt" looking spots on the crust

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cheese. To me, a good pizza comes out of the oven not
very long before it burns.

I'm assuming that you are shaping the dough thin enough
to start with and that you are putting the pizza directly
on the stone and not on a pan. I know that some use those
pans with holes in the bottom to get a crispy crust, but
I've never tried one so have no experience with them.

-Mike

Yes, I put the pizza directly on a preheated pizza stone.

I have normally put just the crust and stone in the oven
for 5-6 minutes, then pulled them out and covered with
sauce and toppings. Are you saying this is the wrong
technique to use?

My cheese - Sargento mozzerella from the grocery store -
is usually more brown than nicely melted and stringy when
I'm done, and I normally use a 400-450 degree oven.

Any other tips to try?

The really hot stone is a key part to get the result you
want.

Quoted message said:

What about sauce? I use a can of "tomato sauce" from the
store, which obviously doesn't taste nearly as good as
some of the best pizza sauce I've ever had.

A can of good tomatoes, olive oil, onion and whatever spices
you like and a few minutes of cooking will produce a sauce
that will always taste better than any jar or canned sauce.

"myt" wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Pearce said:

What I do is make sure the oven is as hot as I can get
it. My oven maxes

out

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

at 550 F. I preheat the oven at 550 for at least 45
minutes before

putting

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in the pizza. Often I preheat for an hour. I then slide
the pizza onto

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

stone and cook for at 550 for 8 to 10 minutes.

Yes, I put the pizza directly on a preheated pizza stone.

The point I was trying to make in my post is that I get my
oven as hot as I can possibly get it to be (short of the
self clean cycle) and preheat for a long time. I try to get
the stone as hot as possible with the long preheat.

Quoted message said:

I have normally put just the crust and stone in the oven
for 5-6 minutes, then pulled them out and covered with
sauce and toppings. Are you saying this is the wrong
technique to use?

It sounds like you are taking the hot stone in and out of
the oven. Is that right? I'd burn myself if I tried that.

What I do is preheat the stone and the oven. I dust the peel
with some rice flour, corn meal works too, I then place the
shaped dough on the peel, put on the sauce, cheese, etc. and
slide it onto the hot stone in the oven. In eight to ten
minutes it is done. I then take it out and let it rest for
ten minutes or so before I slice it. I don't pre-cook the
dough at all. I've never seen a pizza parlor pre-cook dough
so I don't either.

Quoted message said:

My cheese - Sargento mozzerella from the grocery store -
is usually more brown than nicely melted and stringy when
I'm done, and

I kind of like the cheese a bit brown and crusty in places.
It is still stringy though.

I most often use generic supermarket brand whole milk
mozzarella. I do grate it myself. I will sometimes use fresh
or more uppity mozzarella as well.

Quoted message said:

I normally use a 400-450 degree oven.

For what I like in pizza I don't think your oven is hot
enough. Crank that sucker, and for a long time!

Quoted message said:

What about sauce? I use a can of "tomato sauce" from the
store, which obviously doesn't taste nearly as good as
some of the best pizza sauce I've ever had.

I use a very simple sauce. I use canned whole peeled
tomatoes (I use San Marzano, but any should be OK) I dump
all of the liquid into one bowl and the tomatoes into
another. I then crush the tomatoes pretty good with my
hands, add some crushed garlic, salt, pepper and maybe some
hot pepper flakes. If the sauce seems like it should be a
little thinner I'll add back a bit of the liquid I had put
in the first bowl.

I doubt my sauce would taste nearly as good as the
best sauce you've ever had either. Best is a hard
thing to achieve.

BTW, I don't want to pass myself off as a pizza expert. I'm
not one. This is just how I do it and I think my crust comes
out sort of like what you are looking for in a crust.

Good luck, -Mike

myt said:

What about sauce? I use a can of "tomato sauce" from the
store, which obviously doesn't taste nearly as good as some
of the best pizza sauce I've ever had.

Look around the Tomato Sauce aisle of the grocery, and read
ingredient lists.

There are a lot of companies putting seasoned tomato sauces
there, next to the stewed, pureed, crushed, strained, diced,
etc., kinds of plain tomatoes, sauces, and pastes.

Even just the "italian style" would have a few more spices
than plain tomato sauce.

However, recall that authentic--and now official--Neapolitan
pizza, when it uses tomatoes, simply uses hand-crushed
romas. That is, not even a fresh sauce, and certainly not a
spiced sauce. The spicing would come from elsewhere, like
fresh garlic and leaves of fresh basil, oregano, or parsely.

--Blair "Hungry! Look out!
Hungryyyyyy!"

On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 17:33:59 GMT, myt <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 09:26:00 -0500, "Mike Pearce"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I then slide the pizza onto the stone and cook for at
550 for 8 to 10 minutes.

Yes, I put the pizza directly on a preheated pizza stone.

I have normally put just the crust and stone in the oven
for 5-6 minutes, then pulled them out and covered with
sauce and toppings. Are you saying this is the wrong
technique to use?

My cheese - Sargento mozzerella from the grocery store -
is usually more brown than nicely melted and stringy when
I'm done, and I normally use a 400-450 degree oven.

Any other tips to try?

1. Turn up the heat! You're cooking it way too low.
2. Do NOT bake on convect.
3. You don't have to prebake the crust if your heat is
right.

Quoted message said:

What about sauce? I use a can of "tomato sauce" from the
store, which obviously doesn't taste nearly as good as
some of the best pizza sauce I've ever had.

Use tomato paste & a dribble of extra virgin olive oil
(or pesto).

Practice safe eating - always use condiments

I always had problems using cornmeal or flour. Then I tried
parchment paper and it works great. Just put the dough on
it, slide it onto the stone. I usually slide the paper out
after a couple of minutes and use it again. Never fails. Got
the suggestion on here.

sf said:

AndreaS said:

Would corn meal and a peel help me with this? I don't
want to invest in a peel if it won't help.

Don't waste your money. Use a cookie sheet (the kind with
no sides, of course).

Quoted message said:

I tried cornmeal on the pan as I shaped the dough, but
all it did was stick to it. The dough did not slide off
the pan, so I had to follow my usual technique now with
added cornmeal on the bottom of my pizza (not necesarily
a bad thing). Maybe I didn't use enough? Any other
suggestions?

Cornmeal (I like the coarse/polenta grind best) works as
does flour. Be generous and work fast because your dough
rises quickly in a warm kitchen. I use a cake spatula to
make sure it's loose and then shake it back and forth on
the pan (I use a cookie sheet). When it wiggles freely,
you can can slide it easily onto the stone.

Note: To get it onto the stone, you need to
practice/perfect the same type of motion that
professional chefs/cooks use to turn pancakes &
other stuff.

Practice safe eating - always use condiments

"sf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

AndreaS said:

Would corn meal and a peel help me with this? I don't
want to invest in a peel if it won't help.

Don't waste your money. Use a cookie sheet (the kind with
no sides, of course).

Well, it's your money of course, but a peel is probably a
better tool overall, and pretty inexpensive. The handle
allows you to get away from the heat a little, and get you
farther into and out of the oven a little more comfortably.

When it's time to assemble the pizza, sprinkle the peel
generously with flour. Have your ingredients and crust ready
to go, because you need to work fairly quickly once on the
peel. Lay the dough on the peel and give it a shake to
insure it's not catching anywhere. If it sticks, lift and
add a little more flour underneath. Don't be tempted to skip
this step, or go ahead if it's sticking at all, or you risk
ending up with a pizza-omelets. Once the crust is moving
freely, quickly layer on the ingredients. As a general rule,
less is better, but especially so in this case. Test to be
sure the pizza will still slide, then take it to the oven.
Holding the peel at a shallow angle (but not so shallow that
your knuckles hit the door), push it to the rear of the
oven. Give a slight (1-2"😉 jerk to get the pizza started
onto the stone. Pause a second or two to let the pizza will
stick to the stone, then remove the peel the rest of the
way. If you don't like how the pizza landed, just live with
it for a couple minutes, because if you try to move it too
soon you'll wish you hadn't.

"George" wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Any other tips to try?

The really hot stone is a key part to get the result
you want.

I think that maybe even without a stone really high heat is
key. A while back I had convinced a friend who doesn't cook
much more than rice and stir fry to give pizza a try at home
because it was so easy. I later, through experimenting, I
stumbled across the "hot as I can get the oven" method of
cooking pizza. I was telling him about it and he tried it
even though he cooks his in a pan. He called me later
thanking me for the tip and told me that it was the best
he'd ever made. Next I need to convince him to make his own
dough and sauce, he still uses store-bought for both.

-Mike

John N. said:

"sf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

AndreaS said:

Would corn meal and a peel help me with this? I
don't want to invest in a peel if it won't help.

Don't waste your money. Use a cookie sheet (the kind
with no sides, of course).

Well, it's your money of course, but a peel is probably a
better tool overall, and pretty inexpensive. The handle
allows you to get away from the heat a little, and get
you farther into and out of the oven a little more
comfortably.

Peels are NOT cheap and a cookie sheet is all you need if
you're using a home oven.

Quoted message said:

When it's time to assemble the pizza, sprinkle the peel
generously with flour. Have your ingredients and crust
ready to go, because you need to work fairly quickly once
on the peel. Lay the dough on the peel and give it a
shake to insure it's not catching anywhere. If it sticks,
lift and add a little more flour underneath. Don't be
tempted to skip this step, or go ahead if it's sticking
at all, or you risk ending up with a pizza-omelets. Once
the crust is moving freely, quickly layer on the
ingredients. As a general rule, less is better, but
especially so in this case. Test to be sure the pizza
will still slide, then take it to the oven. Holding the
peel at a shallow angle (but not so shallow that your
knuckles hit the door), push it to the rear of the oven.
Give a slight (1-2"😉 jerk to get the pizza started onto
the stone. Pause a second or two to let the pizza will
stick to the stone, then remove the peel the rest of the
way. If you don't like how the pizza landed, just live
with it for a couple minutes, because if you try to move
it too soon you'll wish you hadn't.

Clearly stated and good advice!

Practice safe eating - always use condiments

"John N." wrote: <snip>

Quoted message said:

When it's time to assemble the pizza, sprinkle the peel
generously with flour. Have your ingredients and crust
ready to go, because you need to

work

Quoted message said:

fairly quickly once on the peel. Lay the dough on the peel
and give it a shake to insure it's not catching anywhere.
If it sticks, lift and add a little more flour underneath.
Don't be tempted to skip this step, or go ahead if it's
sticking at all, or you risk ending up with a pizza-
omelets.

Thanks for the ideas, everyone. I'll try more cornmeal and
probably parchment as well. :-D

--
-Andrea

sf said:

John N. said:

"sf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 01:42:20 GMT, "AndreaS"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

> Would corn meal and a peel help me with this? I
> don't want to invest in a peel if it won't help.

Don't waste your money. Use a cookie sheet (the kind
with no sides, of course).

Well, it's your money of course, but a peel is probably a
better tool overall, and pretty inexpensive. The handle
allows you to get away from the heat a little, and get
you farther into and out of the oven a little more
comfortably.

Peels are NOT cheap and a cookie sheet is all you need if
you're using a home oven.

Quoted message said:

When it's time to assemble the pizza, sprinkle the peel
generously with flour. Have your ingredients and crust
ready to go, because you need to work fairly quickly once
on the peel. Lay the dough on the peel and give it a
shake to insure it's not catching anywhere. If it sticks,
lift and add a little more flour underneath. Don't be
tempted to skip this step, or go ahead if it's sticking
at all, or you risk ending up with a pizza-omelets. Once
the crust is moving freely, quickly layer on the
ingredients. As a general rule, less is better, but
especially so in this case. Test to be sure the pizza
will still slide, then take it to the oven. Holding the
peel at a shallow angle (but not so shallow that your
knuckles hit the door), push it to the rear of the oven.
Give a slight (1-2"😉 jerk to get the pizza started onto
the stone. Pause a second or two to let the pizza will
stick to the stone, then remove the peel the rest of the
way. If you don't like how the pizza landed, just live
with it for a couple minutes, because if you try to move
it too soon you'll wish you hadn't.

Never thought about leting the pizza stick to the stone
before fully removing peel. I'm gonna try it. Sounds like
one of those simple yet fantastic bits of advice!

"sf" wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Peels are NOT cheap and a cookie sheet is all you need if
you're using a home oven.

Well, I guess that all depends on whether you consider
$15.00 or so cheap or not. I've got two peels which I use
for both bread and pizza and I'm happy I bought them. I use
my peels a lot more than much of my kitchen stuff. Of
course I don't and never have owned one of those cookie
sheets without a
lip. I use half sheet pans for cookies.

-Mike

Mike Pearce said:

"sf" wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Peels are NOT cheap and a cookie sheet is all you need
if you're using a home oven.

Well, I guess that all depends on whether you consider
$15.00 or so cheap or not.

Viva la difference. I think you can save that $15 (for a
small peel) and spend it more wisely.

Quoted message said:

I've got two peels which I use for both bread and pizza
and I'm happy I bought them. I use my peels a lot more
than much of my kitchen stuff.

You must be a gadget-aholic.

Quoted message said:

Of course I don't and never have owned one of those
cookie sheets without a
lip.

Of course.

Practice safe eating - always use condiments