Next step: speed work or long runs?

pam_in_sc said:

I started running a year ago at age 49, having never been a runner
before (I was a walker and had done some bicycle touring when I was
younger). I immediately had hip problems, and realized I would have
to build up very slowly if I wanted to run. (I took up bicycling
again as an alternative, but I really wanted to run, particularly
once I got bitten by the triathlon bug). For a month I walked to
the local track and ran once around, three days a week. The next
month I ran twice around three days a week, and so on. By May I was
running 2 1/2 miles three times a week and I was able to run 5k in
my first triathlon without injury. My time for the 5k was 40:27
minutes and I was thrilled--that was faster than I was running in my
training.

If you're doing tri training, I'd suggest do intervals on the bike,
not the track -- safer, because there's less impact, less risk of
injury. You do lose some specificity benefits, but IMO it's probably
still the right tradeoff. Add some strides to your running, and that
should help you with your speed development without causing too much
stress.

So the subject was, speed work or long runs. Given where your training
is, my vote is for long runs. But also add some strides to your other
workouts, and do intervals on the bike.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 14:58:48 -0400, pam_in_sc <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I started running a year ago at age 49,

i would forget speed for now (for a long time). Figure out
your pace for your target races this year. Running much
faster than that in training isn't going to transfer much
and may lead to injury (probably I'd say).

You don't exactly say how many miles you're running
a week, but it looks like around 8. My best suggestion
would be to run more. When you get to 15 miles
or so a week, then you have enough milage to vary
the distances. Bearing in mind your mention
of knee twinges, I would add in two weight sessions
per week. Leg Press, Leg Ext, Abduction/Adduction.
See if this seems to help. Don't be afraid to do
some ITB stretches also. Good luck with your goals.
....thehick

pam_in_sc said:

I started running a year ago at age 49, having never been a runner
before (I was a walker and had done some bicycle touring when I was
younger). I immediately had hip problems, and realized I would have to
build up very slowly if I wanted to run.

From a 58-yo tail-of-packer, who started more structured (loosely used)
running about 4 yr ago, doing things too fast too soon can result in
problems, but also there may be underlying muscle imbalances or other
issues that could be addressed - otherwise you could be an injury
waiting to happen, no matter how slowly you build. Probably a different
perspective than many here.

Have the hip problems resolved themselves or have you had it diagnosed?

....

Quoted message said:

Because I was having occasional knee twinges, in preparation for my
first triathlon I did nothing but base building. That kneecap used to
dislocate; I think my problem is basically that there is some arthritic
degeneration there and I need to be gentle on it. When it does twinge
it is in different places on different days (and sometimes going
upstairs it feels like it mistracks a little), so I don't think I have a
clear problem so much as a weakness I have to be careful with. Doing
side leg lifts seems to have helped.

Was this diagnosed? Weaknesses can be strengthened. Is this something
you are just doing? or have you had it diagnosed and doing physical
therapy? or ...?

Quoted message said:

I will build up to three miles as my base,

Looks like you mean base per run?, not total mileage for week?

Quoted message said:

but I think I need to start
varying my workouts more. Wednesday I tried running my 3rd, 5th, and
8th lap of the track fast (3 minutes). My legs were quite achy when I
was done, though not sore the next day. My knee has been generally very
good recently, but I had a little pain above my kneecap on the inside of
my leg when I clambered up a couple of steep hills yesterday and today.

Maybe just adding one lap faster would be a better way to build, then
the next week 2 laps, etc. Or rather than running the recovery laps,
walk them or part of them. If you're getting that amount of achiness,
you may want to consider your form, whether you're doing too much too
soon, or whether your intensities are too high. The last is suspect
since you seem concerned about speed. There's a good chance your easy
runs may not be easy enough - although if you're like me (at least for
snowshoe running or uphills), the difference between "easy run" and
"hard run" isn't much because minimum effort to run is not low.

Another thought on building endurance, may be to insert some walk breaks
to provide tendon/ligament/muscle recovery within a run. This way you
might be able to run more time in a single run - or maybe not (see later
comment). I do this a *lot* in winter when I just can't snowshoe run
continuously for that long (my current conditioning), but a short break
and off I go again.

Quoted message said:

In the summer I am less constrained in my time (I was running on the
track because I thought it would be a gentler surface for my knee but
also because I was running long before it got light). I could try
making one of my three runs a long run, and increasing that more rapidly
than 1/4 mile per month increase I have been doing. I found a place I
can run on the road that is mostly flat, with a few gradual hills.

Just a thought, since I know your circumstances are different. But have
you tried a more variable surface than a track? I did a couple laps of
the track (red rubberized surface) one time while I was waiting for the
pool to open when I was rehabbing some achilles issues. For me, I've
found I need the variability of surfaces to keep my feet and legs happy.
The flat, evenness of the track and the turns the same direction never
agreed with me. I haven't been back, but part of that is availability
and strong preference for trails. I've also found I have limited
tolerance to flat, hard-packed trails. But that's me. Depending upon
what's causing your symptoms, a change of surface may or may not help.

Quoted message said:

I thought at first I might do the speed work on Monday and the long run
on Friday, but after how achy my legs felt after doing the speed work
this week, I think maybe I should pick one or the other, and do my usual
slow 2 3/4 miles on the track the other two days.

Or reduce the amount of increased effort you do in any one run - or
reduce the effort. Some kinds of "speed" work just increase effort to
below LT, others increase it beyond there. Some kind, like short
fartleks, just feel good for the diversity from slow running.

I do want to get

Quoted message said:

faster. I want to go longer but I think it is going to be wiser for me
to mostly train on shorter distances than I race.

Any wisdom for a back-of-the-pack-er on what should be the next step in
my training?

Usually, they advocate building base first. Cross-training can help,
which you are already doing for your tri.

But just a thought. Have you
considered shortening the runs, but adding a day. IOW, reduce the
short-term stress so your recovery is faster. This may not work with a
tri training schedule though. When I was rehabbing, some
drills I couldn't do 3 reps of a drill, and it would
trigger things that took me days to recover from - not good. I finally
brightened up and did 1 at a time. Then later in the day I'd do 1,
maybe. Then the next day I might be able to do 3 - separated by 4 hrs or
so. The next week, I might be able to do 2 at one time, etc. It was a
really slow progression until I got past a certain point. After years of
strengthening, stretching, being careful, etc, I'm still doing all that,
but my body can now handle more stress at one time and recovery times
are substantially shortened - for most things. There's still some
lingering issues, but I try to stay on top of them, now that I recognize
them.

Your biking can provide aerobic conditioning so you may not want to
worry too much about speed work for running right now. With your issues
/ recovery times, you might be jumping the gun on how much "speed" work
you're adding. I've seen easy sorts of speed work - increase effort for
a minute or so, then recover - even in basic beginners' plans. The main
goal of these is biomechanics development, rather than aerobic
conditioning. Just building volume may be more important. Just my $.02.

What I'd also do in your case is work on strengthening and stretching.
Your achiness may just be a symptom of too much, too fast or it could be
symptom of underlying issues, as you suggest with your knee problem.
Getting those resolved early can save lost time later.

Good luck.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

Quoted message said:

I immediately had hip problems
[...]
the track fast (3 minutes). My legs were quite achy when I
was done, though not sore the next day.

Achy where? Hips still a problem?

Any chance you run with your feet splayed (turned outward, duck walk,
opposite of pigeon toe)? Or how confident are you that you're wearing
the right shoes especially WRT pronation?

I'm no biomechanist; here's my story and why I ask.

I've recently sussed that I always have some splay, with considerable
variation from one pair of shoes to another (several; my middle name's
Imelda). The worst are my Asics Gel Magics: the angle looks about
double that compared to my best shoes in this regard, let's say 20
degrees instead of 10. Either way I can reduce the angle by
consciously trying to straighten out the feet but not close to 0
degrees with the Asics.

Of late I am connecting this fact with chronic hip-area
soreness/injury. I believe the splay sets up a sort of
(over-)pronation insofar as the inside of the foot is a bit *ahead* of
the outside - with this geometry, as my foot rolls forward in the
direction of your travel (or as my weight moved over my planted foot,
or whatever's going on), I end up "toeing off" from more the ball of
your foot than the toe. Move the running to a track, and as I'm
hustling around all those left hand turns this geometry gets
exaggerated. Now my splayed right foot is much closer to
*perpendicular* to the damn track and to my motion. Even if I'm
landing midfoot/forefoot not on the heel, that's a lot out-to-in
rolling as my body weight moves forward and my foot's pointed sideways.
That's gotta incur different different strains below the waist than
moving forward with feet straight.

Last week I noticed my right hip feeling worse each time I rounded a
curve, then stay the same on the straights. Wearing those nasty Asics.
This week I wore my best most foot-straightening Nikes and ran only
the straights (much harder than last week's mile & 800m repeats) and
recovered with slow jogs around the curves. No hip or other leg
soreness to speak of. Total volume of fast running was less (one mile,
not three) but a mile would've been plenty to incur pain & soreness
especially at the higher intensity.

Anything here you can use? For purposes beyond merely soporific? Good
luck.

So as not to threadjack I'll start another thread in case anyone from
the group has input for me.

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

pam_in_sc said:

I started running a year ago at age 49, having never been a runner
before (I was a walker and had done some bicycle touring when I was
younger). I immediately had hip problems, and realized I would have
to build up very slowly if I wanted to run. (I took up bicycling
again as an alternative, but I really wanted to run, particularly
once I got bitten by the triathlon bug). For a month I walked to
the local track and ran once around, three days a week. The next
month I ran twice around three days a week, and so on. By May I was
running 2 1/2 miles three times a week and I was able to run 5k in
my first triathlon without injury. My time for the 5k was 40:27
minutes and I was thrilled--that was faster than I was running in my
training.

That's great how you worked up to the tri effort without injury. It takes
patience and a good feel for how your body adapts, especially in the trouble
spots.

Quoted message said:

If you're doing tri training, I'd suggest do intervals on the bike,
not the track -- safer, because there's less impact, less risk of
injury. You do lose some specificity benefits, but IMO it's probably
still the right tradeoff. Add some strides to your running, and that
should help you with your speed development without causing too much
stress.

Having done duathlon training before, I'd concur with this advice. You'd be
surprised how well the bike work will transfer.

Quoted message said:

So the subject was, speed work or long runs. Given where your training
is, my vote is for long runs. But also add some strides to your other
workouts, and do intervals on the bike.

I'd suggest long runs with some fartlek (speedplay) in them. This can range
from strides to a few shorter tempo efforts (5-10 mins each), depending on
how you feel that day. Keep the overall effort very easy, and then when you
go for the higher intensity efforts don't go all out, but experiement and
ease into it over several runs. Don't do this more than once a week. Also,
remember that long runs can be done every 2 or 3 weeks and still be very
effective.

-Tony

Quoted message said:

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan Rebbechi said:

If you're doing tri training, I'd suggest do intervals on the bike,
not the track -- safer, because there's less impact, less risk of
injury. You do lose some specificity benefits, but IMO it's probably
still the right tradeoff.

I tried this today, and it really felt right. I live in a hilly area,
so I hadn't thought about speed work on the bike. But in fact I need
not only to build strength but also to get used to going faster and at a
higher level of intensity.

Pam

Dot said:

Have the hip problems resolved themselves or have you had it diagnosed?

It hurt a good bit those first few months of building up, but then
slowly stopped hurting, so I think it was mostly a matter of
strengthening (and stretching). I'm aware of soreness there sometimes
when I increase, but most of the time the problem is completely gone.

About my knee issues:

Quoted message said:

Was this diagnosed? Weaknesses can be strengthened. Is this something
you are just doing? or have you had it diagnosed and doing physical
therapy? or ...?

I went to a highly-recommended orthopedist years ago for the problem of
the kneecap dislocating easily, and he said he could cut the tendon on
the other side so both sides would be equally weak. I decided I would
wait until medicine invented a better treatment. Then I started going
to a massage therapist who taught me how to stretch it and the kneecap
hasn't dislocated since (12 years). After that experience I've been
reluctant to go back to a doctor, though I still see the massage
therapist who is almost as good as a good physical therapist, though not
an expert in running. I also have gotten good help from an excellent
orthotocist, so I have been checked for leg length differences and such.
I don't doubt that a really knowledgeable specialist could help me,
but I'm not convinced I will find one in my area (western South Carolina).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I will build up to three miles as my base,

Looks like you mean base per run?, not total mileage for week?

Yes, you are right, I mean three miles per run three times a week.

Quoted message said:

Maybe just adding one lap faster would be a better way to build, then
the next week 2 laps, etc. Or rather than running the recovery laps,
walk them or part of them. If you're getting that amount of achiness,
you may want to consider your form, whether you're doing too much too
soon, or whether your intensities are too high. The last is suspect
since you seem concerned about speed. There's a good chance your easy
runs may not be easy enough - although if you're like me (at least for
snowshoe running or uphills), the difference between "easy run" and
"hard run" isn't much because minimum effort to run is not low.

In the triathlon I did in June, I talked with another runner for most of
the last mile. So I'm not pushing myself terribly hard. I have a very
high maximum heart rate (201 on a stress test) and I'm running in the
low 140s during my usual training. So I think I can go up. But
building slower is a good idea--it is what has worked for me so far.

Quoted message said:

Another thought on building endurance, may be to insert some walk breaks
to provide tendon/ligament/muscle recovery within a run. This way you
might be able to run more time in a single run - or maybe not (see later
comment). I do this a *lot* in winter when I just can't snowshoe run
continuously for that long (my current conditioning), but a short break
and off I go again.

I did walk on some hills on both 5k runs in triathlons; maybe that made
more difference than I realized. I had been assuming that if my muscles
could only take running so short a distance I might as well run it all.

Quoted message said:

Just a thought, since I know your circumstances are different. But have
you tried a more variable surface than a track? I did a couple laps of
the track (red rubberized surface) one time while I was waiting for the
pool to open when I was rehabbing some achilles issues. For me, I've
found I need the variability of surfaces to keep my feet and legs happy.
The flat, evenness of the track and the turns the same direction never
agreed with me. I haven't been back, but part of that is availability
and strong preference for trails. I've also found I have limited
tolerance to flat, hard-packed trails. But that's me. Depending upon
what's causing your symptoms, a change of surface may or may not help.

I tried running on grass at the very beginning, and it bothered my hip
more. But I want to try it a little again now, as I think it would help
build up the stabilizing muscles. There is usually no one else on the
track when I go there before 6 am, so I alternate directions from day to
day. The favorite local running trail on grass, on the top of a dike,
is closed for repairs to the dike.

I said I thought I should only do one or the other

Quoted message said:

Or reduce the amount of increased effort you do in any one run - or
reduce the effort. Some kinds of "speed" work just increase effort to
below LT, others increase it beyond there. Some kind, like short
fartleks, just feel good for the diversity from slow running.

Good ideas to experiment with.

Quoted message said:

Usually, they advocate building base first. Cross-training can help,
which you are already doing for your tri.

But just a thought. Have you
considered shortening the runs, but adding a day. IOW, reduce the
short-term stress so your recovery is faster. This may not work with a
tri training schedule though. When I was rehabbing, some
drills I couldn't do 3 reps of a drill, and it would
trigger things that took me days to recover from - not good. I finally
brightened up and did 1 at a time. Then later in the day I'd do 1,
maybe. Then the next day I might be able to do 3 - separated by 4 hrs or
so. The next week, I might be able to do 2 at one time, etc. It was a
really slow progression until I got past a certain point. After years of
strengthening, stretching, being careful, etc, I'm still doing all that,
but my body can now handle more stress at one time and recovery times
are substantially shortened - for most things. There's still some
lingering issues, but I try to stay on top of them, now that I recognize
them.

The MWF schedule is convenient, as I swim with a masters group TT 5:45
to 7:15 am. My experience has been that no running two days in a row
plus the very slow build-up has worked, but it is an interesting idea
now whether I could do half as much on twice as many days. My intuition
says that wouldn't work for me, but it is good to be aware of it as a
possibility.

Quoted message said:

Your biking can provide aerobic conditioning so you may not want to
worry too much about speed work for running right now. With your issues
/ recovery times, you might be jumping the gun on how much "speed" work
you're adding. I've seen easy sorts of speed work - increase effort for
a minute or so, then recover - even in basic beginners' plans. The main
goal of these is biomechanics development, rather than aerobic
conditioning. Just building volume may be more important. Just my $.02.

What I'd also do in your case is work on strengthening and stretching.
Your achiness may just be a symptom of too much, too fast or it could be
symptom of underlying issues, as you suggest with your knee problem.
Getting those resolved early can save lost time later.

Good luck.

Dot

Thank you very much for all your thoughts and experience!

Pam

Charlie Pendejo said:

Achy where? Hips still a problem?

Lots of different muscles in my legs felt achy, but it was much better
by the time I had walked 6 or 7 minutes to my car.

Quoted message said:

Any chance you run with your feet splayed (turned outward, duck walk,
opposite of pigeon toe)? Or how confident are you that you're wearing
the right shoes especially WRT pronation?

I'm significantly pigeon-toed, from the hip. I went to the best running
store in the area, and they sold me a neutral shoe on the theory that my
orthotics were what should do the work. The shoe is a Brooks Dyad. I
bought new shoes last winter and tried a shoe with more shock
absorption, but I started to have knee problems so I went back to the
Brooks Dyad. I figured the softer shoe didn't hold the orthotic in the
right position as firmly.

Quoted message said:

I'm no biomechanist; here's my story and why I ask.

I've recently sussed that I always have some splay, with considerable
variation from one pair of shoes to another (several; my middle name's
Imelda). The worst are my Asics Gel Magics: the angle looks about
double that compared to my best shoes in this regard, let's say 20
degrees instead of 10. Either way I can reduce the angle by
consciously trying to straighten out the feet but not close to 0
degrees with the Asics.

Of late I am connecting this fact with chronic hip-area
soreness/injury. I believe the splay sets up a sort of
(over-)pronation insofar as the inside of the foot is a bit *ahead* of
the outside - with this geometry, as my foot rolls forward in the
direction of your travel (or as my weight moved over my planted foot,
or whatever's going on), I end up "toeing off" from more the ball of
your foot than the toe. Move the running to a track, and as I'm
hustling around all those left hand turns this geometry gets
exaggerated. Now my splayed right foot is much closer to
*perpendicular* to the damn track and to my motion. Even if I'm
landing midfoot/forefoot not on the heel, that's a lot out-to-in
rolling as my body weight moves forward and my foot's pointed sideways.
That's gotta incur different different strains below the waist than
moving forward with feet straight.

Last week I noticed my right hip feeling worse each time I rounded a
curve, then stay the same on the straights. Wearing those nasty Asics.
This week I wore my best most foot-straightening Nikes and ran only
the straights (much harder than last week's mile & 800m repeats) and
recovered with slow jogs around the curves. No hip or other leg
soreness to speak of. Total volume of fast running was less (one mile,
not three) but a mile would've been plenty to incur pain & soreness
especially at the higher intensity.

Anything here you can use? For purposes beyond merely soporific? Good
luck.

So as not to threadjack I'll start another thread in case anyone from
the group has input for me.

When I was a kid I was treated for being pigeontoed with lifts (my
sisters were put in casts as babies). But I haven't found anyone
recently who thinks it is significant. What you say about the opposite
problem makes sense to me, but I haven't seen any theory for it either way.

Pam

pam_in_sc said:

Dot said:

Have the hip problems resolved themselves or have you had it diagnosed?

It hurt a good bit those first few months of building up, but then
slowly stopped hurting, so I think it was mostly a matter of
strengthening (and stretching). I'm aware of soreness there sometimes
when I increase, but most of the time the problem is completely gone.

About my knee issues:

Quoted message said:

Was this diagnosed? Weaknesses can be strengthened. Is this something
you are just doing? or have you had it diagnosed and doing physical
therapy? or ...?

I went to a highly-recommended orthopedist years ago for the problem of
the kneecap dislocating easily, and he said he could cut the tendon on
the other side so both sides would be equally weak. I decided I would
wait until medicine invented a better treatment. Then I started going
to a massage therapist who taught me how to stretch it and the kneecap
hasn't dislocated since (12 years). After that experience I've been
reluctant to go back to a doctor, though I still see the massage
therapist who is almost as good as a good physical therapist, though not
an expert in running. I also have gotten good help from an excellent
orthotocist, so I have been checked for leg length differences and such.
I don't doubt that a really knowledgeable specialist could help me, but
I'm not convinced I will find one in my area (western South Carolina).

Ah, ok. I originally thought some of these things were more recent.
Sounds like you've got a good MT. This sounds generally similar to my
history - regular doctors didn't work out, but PT has been able to work
magic. As soon as some things settle down in my schedule, I'm going to
try a local, recommended MT to help loosen some things.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe just adding one lap faster would be a better way to build, then
the next week 2 laps, etc. Or rather than running the recovery laps,
walk them or part of them. If you're getting that amount of achiness,
you may want to consider your form, whether you're doing too much too
soon, or whether your intensities are too high. The last is suspect
since you seem concerned about speed. There's a good chance your easy
runs may not be easy enough - although if you're like me (at least for
snowshoe running or uphills), the difference between "easy run" and
"hard run" isn't much because minimum effort to run is not low.

In the triathlon I did in June, I talked with another runner for most of
the last mile. So I'm not pushing myself terribly hard. I have a very
high maximum heart rate (201 on a stress test) and I'm running in the
low 140s during my usual training.

This sounds like you're not going too hard in your regular runs.

Quoted message said:

So I think I can go up. But
building slower is a good idea--it is what has worked for me so far.

Quoted message said:

Another thought on building endurance, may be to insert some walk
breaks to provide tendon/ligament/muscle recovery within a run. This
way you might be able to run more time in a single run - or maybe not
(see later comment). I do this a *lot* in winter when I just can't
snowshoe run continuously for that long (my current conditioning), but
a short break and off I go again.

I did walk on some hills on both 5k runs in triathlons; maybe that made
more difference than I realized. I had been assuming that if my muscles
could only take running so short a distance I might as well run it all.

It may depend on your recovery time within a run. I know when I was
rehabbing (and still same for snowshoeing), I couldn't run very long at
one time, but a short walk break was all I needed to recover then could
do more. That worked for building time on legs (TOL) at one point. But
as I mentioned earlier, my recovery between 1 rep of a drill (very early
in rehab) was a couple hours. What I've done on some of my runs, esp. in
winter snow, accept the walk break just so I can get TOL, then over
time, the walk breaks decrease and disappear. My personality is such
that I need to get a minimum amt of time outdoors for mental sanity. So
I do what I can to get that time running. Otherwise I cross-train or go
batty. Other people would be happier just running the shorter time. No
one way is "right" - it's just a matter of what fits personalities,
schedules, etc.

Quoted message said:

I tried running on grass at the very beginning, and it bothered my hip
more. But I want to try it a little again now, as I think it would help
build up the stabilizing muscles.

It might or it could aggravate things. A short test run may give you an
idea as to whether those muscles are sufficiently strengthened.

Quoted message said:

There is usually no one else on the
track when I go there before 6 am, so I alternate directions from day to
day. The favorite local running trail on grass, on the top of a dike,
is closed for repairs to the dike.

Sounds like track may be your best option.

Quoted message said:

I said I thought I should only do one or the other

Some people do that for consistency. I tend to mix and match at this
point so I put more stress on stabilizers some days, and other days less
stress so they can recover.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Usually, they advocate building base first. Cross-training can help,
which you are already doing for your tri.

But just a thought. Have you
considered shortening the runs, but adding a day. IOW, reduce the
short-term stress so your recovery is faster.

The MWF schedule is convenient, as I swim with a masters group TT 5:45
to 7:15 am. My experience has been that no running two days in a row
plus the very slow build-up has worked, but it is an interesting idea
now whether I could do half as much on twice as many days. My intuition
says that wouldn't work for me, but it is good to be aware of it as a
possibility.

Yea, ignore my comment along these lines. They were based on thinking
all your issues were recent and may not have had them diagnosed. With a
tri schedule, it's hard to add multiple workouts.

FWIW, I've generally been running about 3 days a week, at least in
winter (field work in past summers), and was mostly in the 9-11 mpw
range also until recently, but my long runs were frequently close to 50%
of my weekly mileage or 30% of 2-wk mileage - I generally use a 2- or
3-wk cycle. (snow had a lot to do with low mileage) I usually have 2
days non-running before my long run so I can go play in the woods for a
couple hours on fresh legs. I tend to focus on duration and allow
adequate recovery, and may insert some higher efforts in some of those -
just for biomechanical diversity. I may change some of this going
forward (no work constraints), but haven't decided what, if anything, to
change.

I just offered that as an example of building long run with minimal
mileage and 3 days/wk running. It's what has kept me and my body happy,
but it's not what would work for many people. More conventional
structure didn't work for me. It's one of those things where you have to
figure what works for you.

Quoted message said:

Thank you very much for all your thoughts and experience!

It sounds like you've got things under reasonable control. I didn't
realize that many of your issues had been in the past. Good luck with
your running and tri training.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

pam_in_sc said:

I'm significantly pigeon-toed, from the hip.
[...]
But I haven't found anyone recently who thinks it is significant.

Well, Jack Youngren, PhD, says (in the first chapter, "Improving Stride
Mechanics", of the book _Run Strong_ c 2005 Human Kinetics)

Severe inversion or eversion (landing "pigeon-toed" or
"duck-footed," respectively) causes significant torque on
the joints and tissues because the rotational forces through
the knees and hips are increased as the body passes over the
foot later in the stance phase.

So there's somebody at least. :-)

Not that I'm familiar with Jack Youngren or his reputation; all I know
is from the blurbs and pix on the back pages, he's on the faculty at
UCSF and looks hunky in a Joe Montana vein.

Quoted message said:

What you say about the opposite problem makes sense to me,

Going solely on euclidean intuition, with a pigeon-toed landing your
outside foot should be happy going around a track's curve, but your
inside foot is more perpendicular to your line of motion than normal -
opposite of my duck-foot.

Who knows if that's a real factor in your running picture?

Regardless, if you're doing most or all of your training runs on the
track, and if you can find some different places to run instead, it's
worth the experiment to see how you feel. Yeah, try a road run (beware
of heavily crowned - sloped for water drainage - roads), try some
softer surfaces too like grass (golf course?), a dirt trail, a gravel
road. Even a treadmill.

And if the running surface and lack of 8 curves per mile don't make a
difference, the change of scenery still will.

Also: if the bouncier shoes are worse for your knees, I wonder if the
rubberized track (or is it old-school cinder?) has some of the same
effect, and a firmer surface might work out better. Or maybe the track
+ your Dyads = as good as it gets, and you'll want cushier shoes for
the road.

The Dyads are described as not-your-everyday-shoe, interesting. But
they do sound pretty well cushioned; what did you find that was notably
softer? Just curious.

Charlie Pendejo said:

Regardless, if you're doing most or all of your training runs on the
track, and if you can find some different places to run instead, it's
worth the experiment to see how you feel. Yeah, try a road run (beware
of heavily crowned - sloped for water drainage - roads), try some
softer surfaces too like grass (golf course?), a dirt trail, a gravel
road. Even a treadmill.

And if the running surface and lack of 8 curves per mile don't make a
difference, the change of scenery still will.

Sometimes I get bored on the track, but usually it is meditative. Now
that I can run when it is light, though, I'm going to run on the road
once a week.

Quoted message said:

Also: if the bouncier shoes are worse for your knees, I wonder if the
rubberized track (or is it old-school cinder?) has some of the same
effect, and a firmer surface might work out better. Or maybe the track
+ your Dyads = as good as it gets, and you'll want cushier shoes for
the road.

The track is a university track--it isn't very bouncy.

Quoted message said:

The Dyads are described as not-your-everyday-shoe, interesting. But
they do sound pretty well cushioned; what did you find that was notably
softer? Just curious.

The softer ones were Nike Pegasus. The Dyad looks like it was made for
people with orthotics--you take out the insole that it comes with and it
has a nice broad flat platform in which to put a custom orthotic.

Pam