Newbies' Logs 30/10/04

DadatHome said:

Quoted message said:

Beginners can post their logs here, or in the "training week" thread, or
anywhere else they like, it's an unmoderated group. No run too short. No
pace too slow.

Since Mel hasn't posted this for the past week, I hope she excuses me in
doing so.

Ultimately, it's up to you guys (I mean the real test is if this makes newbies
happy), but is it really helpful to establish a convention whereby "newbies"
get a "separate but equal" training week thread ?

Maybe it would help if David could adopt the language above ("no run too short.
no pace too slow"😉 in the regular training week thread (David ? What do you
think ?) so that it's more clear that the training week thread isn't just for
"fast" people. In fact I'd go further than that and argue that it's important
that we get a variety of contributions to these threads. I've learned a lot by
reading posts authored by runners who probably would not beat me in a 5k race.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Ultimately, it's up to you guys (I mean the real test is if this makes
newbies
happy), but is it really helpful to establish a convention whereby
"newbies"
get a "separate but equal" training week thread ?

Maybe it would help if David could adopt the language above ("no run too
short.
no pace too slow"😉 in the regular training week thread (David ? What do
you
think ?) so that it's more clear that the training week thread isn't just
for
"fast" people. In fact I'd go further than that and argue that it's
important
that we get a variety of contributions to these threads. I've learned a
lot by
reading posts authored by runners who probably would not beat me in a 5k
race.

I have ironically always looked at the training week thread
as a convenient way for newbies to "introduce" themselves
to the group, and have seen it used effectively in this regard,
as many others have also.

Never, ever have I thought it a "established" or "fast" only
thread.

I will admit that I shared many of the same sentiments you
made above when I first saw this post, but felt sort of silly
and sheepish at the same time. No one means any harm
obviously, everything is with great intentions. That's a
given.

So.... you know, I don't care either way. My only worry is
that I don't want to see some inadvertent fracturing of the
training week thread, which (although I'm biased) has always
seemed to be a unifying thread around here in which all
abilities mingle, communicate and learn from each other.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton ON)
www.absolutelyaccurate.com
www.allfalldown.org

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

DadatHome said:

Quoted message said:

Beginners can post their logs here, or in the "training week" thread,

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

anywhere else they like, it's an unmoderated group. No run too short.

No

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pace too slow.

Since Mel hasn't posted this for the past week, I hope she excuses me in
doing so.

Ultimately, it's up to you guys (I mean the real test is if this makes

newbies

Quoted message said:

happy), but is it really helpful to establish a convention whereby

"newbies"

Quoted message said:

get a "separate but equal" training week thread ?

Jaysus Christ....with all the completely unhelpful,
not-even-remotely-running-related [censored] that gets posted on the NG, do you
really think it makes a difference whether the newbies post their logs in
their own thread?

DrLith said:

Jaysus Christ....with all the completely unhelpful,
not-even-remotely-running-related [censored] that gets posted on the NG,

To me, if you replaced that clause with "given the situation in Sudan, ".
In other words, I don't see the relationship.

Quoted message said:

do you really think it makes a difference whether the newbies post their logs
in their own thread?

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

X-No-Archive: yes
Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

DadatHome said:

Quoted message said:

Beginners can post their logs here, or in the "training week" thread, or
anywhere else they like, it's an unmoderated group. No run too short. No
pace too slow.

Since Mel hasn't posted this for the past week, I hope she excuses me in
doing so.

Ultimately, it's up to you guys (I mean the real test is if this makes newbies
happy), but is it really helpful to establish a convention whereby "newbies"
get a "separate but equal" training week thread ?

Donovan, bro, I am surprised by this unexpected turn of events in the
history of rec.running.

Remember when I brought this up a month ago asking Rimmer why he needs
to start a new thread? You were one of his supporters... "this is an
unmoderated forum, anyone can post what they want,,, look at Tom
Wheeler,,, yada yada yada,,,,"

So, how come this change of heart?

It would be useful to spell out what you think is wrong with this
convention before it gets entrenched in r.r. as a tradition.

While you are in the pursuit of truth, maybe you should develop a
protocol for deciding who is a newbie, how long can one be a newbie,
when does a newbie graduate from this thread to the normal thread....
blah blah blah,,,,,

MWL

-----------------

http://www.commercialcloset.org/cgi-bin/iowa/portrayals.html?record=667

MWL said:

X-No-Archive: yes
Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

DadatHome said:

> Beginners can post their logs here, or in the "training week" thread, or
> anywhere else they like, it's an unmoderated group. No run too short. No
> pace too slow.

Since Mel hasn't posted this for the past week, I hope she excuses me in
doing so.

Ultimately, it's up to you guys (I mean the real test is if this makes
newbies happy), but is it really helpful to establish a convention whereby
"newbies" get a "separate but equal" training week thread ?

Donovan, bro, I am surprised by this unexpected turn of events in the
history of rec.running.

Remember when I brought this up a month ago asking Rimmer why he needs
to start a new thread? You were one of his supporters... "this is an

It's one thing for a poster to have his/her own thread, it's another to propose
that other newbies should "defect" from the other training week thread.

Quoted message said:

unmoderated forum, anyone can post what they want,,, look at Tom
Wheeler,,, yada yada yada,,,,"

So, how come this change of heart?

Mel Rimmer wasn't originally proposing that there be a separate "Newbies
trainin week" thread. It was a thread specifically for Mel Rimmer. Which might
seem somewhat self-aggrandising, but I don't have a problem with it.

Quoted message said:

It would be useful to spell out what you think is wrong with this
convention before it gets entrenched in r.r. as a tradition.

I thought that was implicit in my describing it as "separate but equal". I'm
sure you're well read enough to be familiar with the history of the term, and
the outcome of schemes that are advanced under banners bearing that slogan.

Quoted message said:

While you are in the pursuit of truth, maybe you should develop a
protocol for deciding who is a newbie, how long can one be a newbie,
when does a newbie graduate from this thread to the normal thread....
blah blah blah,,,,,

That sounds like a good job for the trolls. Maybe you should write a "troll
FAQ". Then you could argue about it with yourself for a few days.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

In article <[email hidden]>,

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Ultimately, it's up to you guys (I mean the real test is if this makes newbies
happy), but is it really helpful to establish a convention whereby "newbies"
get a "separate but equal" training week thread ?

Speaking for myself alone, posting under a "newbie" thread allows me to
participate while not feeling so intimidated.

I don't know much about the "science" of running, the training
techniques, or the terminology. I read most of what's posted here,
trying to understand and absorb what's being discussed, but can only
relate my running experiences in layman's terms. Mel (btw, who's a she)
writes similarly so I've been comfortable replying to her without
feeling as though I might use the wrong term or offer less than "expert"
opinion. I felt there might be other newbies, feeling as I do, who might
be more comfortable posting under this subject heading as well - tho so
far it appears it's just she and I.

This separate thread appears to be a craw stuck in several gullets - as
I recall it was when Mel first posted as such. I'd assumed it was
accepted as being OK with the majority and thus I participated and
continued with it.

BTW, thank you everyone for the backslaps and waytogo's on my newbie
progress. Your support was underwhelming.
--
"To know the world intimately is the beginning of caring."
-- Ann Hayman Zwinger

In article <[email hidden]>,
DadatHome <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Ultimately, it's up to you guys (I mean the real test is if this makes newbies
happy), but is it really helpful to establish a convention whereby "newbies"
get a "separate but equal" training week thread ?

Speaking for myself alone, posting under a "newbie" thread allows me to
participate while not feeling so intimidated.

I love reading the threads about e.g. Don's marathon training, and
Doug's ultra races, and other stuff which is way more advanced than I'm
doing. But I'm an ignorant insecure newbie and I need to be able to ask
stupid questions and get helpful answers, and I'd like a little
encouragement and I'm willing to dish out support to others.

I know that the 99% WAVA runners on the group aren't going to bother
with the penguins and the plodders and that's OK by me. I don't expect
to get a telegram from Paula Radcliffe congratulating me on my sub 30
minute 5K either. So me and DadatHome have got this little corner where
we can encourage each other and be interested in each other's trifling
triumphs and miniature challenges, and any other newbies who wander in
can join us too if they like.

I've been /this/ close to bailing on r.r /this/ many times, and here we
go again. People who can't be bothered to post answers to our questions
or responses to our reports somehow find the time and energy to harass
us. But if the people who want to talk about running, at whatever level,
just hang on then the trolls don't get to take over the group entirely.
So I think we'll stay just as we are, thanks very much.
--
Mel Rimmer

"Mel Rimmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've been /this/ close to bailing on r.r /this/ many times, and here we
go again. People who can't be bothered to post answers to our questions
or responses to our reports somehow find the time and energy to harass
us.

You might like to consider whether posting your training logs as a separate
thread isn't actually attracting the attention of the trolls. By putting
"Newbie" in you subject header you are, in effect, waving a flag and saying
"Here I am, come and get me" to the trolls.

Usenet can be a bit of a jungle at times and the doe-eyed helpless look
isn't necessarily the best survival strategy. If you were to simply post
your logs in the regular "training week" thread it would attract much less
negative attention. Don't forget that we were all "newbies" once and you
don't need to feel self-concious about your speed or your mileage in the
regular training week thread.

Anyhow, this is Usenet and you're free to do pretty much as you like.

Tim

Mel Rimmer said:

I know that the 99% WAVA runners on the group aren't going to bother
with the penguins and the plodders and that's OK by me. I don't expect

because there aren't any 99% wava runners in this group (-; There's a pack
of reasonably fast people -- me, Dave, Andrew Taylor, amh and Steve, who are
around the 1:20 mark for the half. But we're still plodders compared to the
elites.

Then there's Brian Wakem who is another step up, but he's still quite some way
from 99% WAVA.

Quoted message said:

to get a telegram from Paula Radcliffe congratulating me on my sub 30
minute 5K either.

My impression is that runners who post race reports here tend to get
encouragement here even from people who are much faster than them. When I was
a beginner (a plodder compared to the faster guys on r.r), a lot of these
faster runners who congratulate me on my race performances.

Quoted message said:

So me and DadatHome have got this little corner where
we can encourage each other and be interested in each other's trifling
triumphs and miniature challenges, and any other newbies who wander in
can join us too if they like.

That's what the training week thread is. It's a thread for a bunch of plodders
to chat. I'll often read every post in this thread, regardless of whether the
poster is a "newbie" or not. I just read the thread from start to finish. And
there are others who do the same.

I'm not trying to tell you that you can't have your thread. It's an unmoderated
newsgroup, so you can do what you like. But I think you're misunderstanding
what the training week thread is.

Quoted message said:

I've been /this/ close to bailing on r.r /this/ many times, and here we
go again. People who can't be bothered to post answers to our questions
or responses to our reports somehow find the time and energy to harass
us.

If you're talking about me, I try to post responses to questions when I think
I can give a reasonable answer. I know I haven't posted much in the way of
responses to your questions, but I've answered questions from other newbies
including "dadathome". As for the trolls, I suggest ignoring them for the most
part.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Mel Rimmer said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
DadatHome <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Ultimately, it's up to you guys (I mean the real test is if this makes newbies
happy), but is it really helpful to establish a convention whereby "newbies"
get a "separate but equal" training week thread ?

Speaking for myself alone, posting under a "newbie" thread allows me to
participate while not feeling so intimidated.

I thought that might be the case and I agree.

In fact, in the "other" place where I'm most active, the Great
Floridian Triathlon forum, they changed the format of the forum this
year and I specifically requested an IronVirgins section.

Same reasons.

It didn't fracture or disturb that forum nor will a Newbie's Log do so
here.

Quoted message said:

I love reading the threads about e.g. Don's marathon training, and
Doug's ultra races, and other stuff which is way more advanced than I'm
doing. But I'm an ignorant insecure newbie and I need to be able to ask
stupid questions and get helpful answers, and I'd like a little
encouragement and I'm willing to dish out support to others.

I've been a little remiss in encouraging newbies lately. (I was once
criticized as being rr's resident "cheerleader" - as if that was in
insult.)

I'll try to work on that.

Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"

DadatHome said:

Quoted message said:

Beginners can post their logs here, or in the "training week" thread, or
anywhere else they like, it's an unmoderated group. No run too short. No
pace too slow.

Since Mel hasn't posted this for the past week, I hope she excuses me in
doing so.
________

Had a pretty good week. My short term goal is to work up to a consistent
20mpw and this week was supposed to be an 18 mile week, duplicating the
week before. Well I was right on schedule mileage-wise until Saturday,
the last day of my weekly log. Part way into the run which should have
been a 3 miler, I decided to extend it a bit and make it a 4 instead.
The weather was dry but cool at 50F, there was a good breeze (7mph) but
the running warmed me up nicely after 10 minutes or so.

Nothing wrong with that at all. One mile isn't going to cause any
great stress and is probably as sign that you were ready to add it.
Cool weather helps a lot, too.

Quoted message said:

I've noticed an interesting thing late last week and into this week - it
seems if I pick up the pace slightly the effort feels a little easier
and smoother. I try to keep it slow at 10-11min/mile but I found if I go
slightly faster at 9:30-10min/mile it just feels better with less of
that plodding feeling. My legs are more fatigued at the end of the
longer 4.5 mile runs, but my heart rate is still in the same general
range as before. Hmmmm.

Another good sign. Running too slow for your ability can hurt as much
as running too fast. <g>

That's one of the problems I have in training with my wife.
Fortunately as she gets more into her BQ training, her pace as picked
up to where it's not as big of a problem any more.

Quoted message said:

Sun - day off
Mon - 4.5 miles
Tue - 3.0 miles
Wed - 3.0 miles
Thu - day off
Fri - 4.5 miles
Sat - 4 miles

Just curious, does you schedule eventually call for gradually
extending one of the weekend runs into a "long" run?

Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Mel Rimmer said:

So me and DadatHome have got this little corner where
we can encourage each other and be interested in each other's trifling
triumphs and miniature challenges, and any other newbies who wander in
can join us too if they like.

That's what the training week thread is.

Bingo.

Quoted message said:

I'm not trying to tell you that you can't have your thread. It's an
unmoderated
newsgroup, so you can do what you like. But I think you're
misunderstanding
what the training week thread is.

Nail-on-the-head.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton ON)
www.absolutelyaccurate.com
www.allfalldown.org

"Mike Tennent" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mel Rimmer said:

Quoted message said:

Speaking for myself alone, posting under a "newbie" thread allows me
to
participate while not feeling so intimidated.

I thought that might be the case and I agree.

First off, it doesn't matter to me if it's under one or more threads.
Confessing to being new will in fact draw attention from the old guard
and trolls which one need only ignore. OTOH, and what I find
interesting, is the perception that some of those who have been posting
for years know what, or better yet, why they are doing things. A general
notion and I'm not picking on anyone in particular. At times I read many
and others I ignore the lot. I tend to focus mostly on peoples goals and
come alive for the outrageous like Igor's oxymoronic LC endurance plan.

I'm suggesting that most of us are in fact "newbies" and time in the
board room(r.r) can mean something or nothing. As the wise Ozzie says
it's all lore anyway.

I very seldom don't publish my weekly mileage because what I do appeals
to maybe two people and for the rest, confusing. But most important I'm
lazy.

-DougF

"DadatHome" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:noemails-

Quoted message said:

Speaking for myself alone, posting under a "newbie" thread allows me to
participate while not feeling so intimidated.

Why? Because some people are faster than you? Do they
actually do something to intimidate you, or does the simple
act of them mingling in the same thread as you achieve this
effect?

If so, do you truly think segregation is the answer?

It saddens me to know that simply because I am one of the
faster people here (and for no other reason) I "intimidate"
people.

I've been here for years. I've always supported all types of
runners. Elite snobbery doesn't last very long around here.

I've taught learn-to-run clinics full of overweight sedentary
people that were making their first step towards a much
better lifestyle. When I mentioned my own achievements
to them (along with mentioning my previous smoking, very
inactive ways), no one seemed intimidated. Instead, they
were interested and happy to learn from someone who
wanted to share his enthusiasm.

Bottom line: I can run faster than you. But you can do a
million things way, way better than me. Only an idiot would
make running abilities (or lack of) a means of intimidation
via newsgroup.

Still as I said before, if segregation is what you feel to be the
best option to avoid your (I believe) irrational fears, then go
for it.

Quoted message said:

I don't know much about the "science" of running, the training
techniques, or the terminology.

Feel free to check out the training week thread sometime.
We talk about all those subjects. Newcomers and oldtimers
alike. Newbies are great because their (usually) rapid increase
in ability over the first year of so is often matched by their
enthusiasm. Why hide it in another thread?

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton ON)
www.absolutelyaccurate.com
www.allfalldown.org

"Mel Rimmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I love reading the threads about e.g. Don's marathon training, and
Doug's ultra races, and other stuff which is way more advanced than I'm
doing.

Me too!

Quoted message said:

But I'm an ignorant insecure newbie and I need to be able to ask
stupid questions and get helpful answers, and I'd like a little
encouragement and I'm willing to dish out support to others.

I can't help you with your feelings of being insecure and
ignorant. Low self-esteem issues are something I've fought
over the years, but here is not the place. As far as wanting
"a little encouragement and I'm willing to dish out support to
others"... well, you sound like a perfect training week thread
poster to me.

Quoted message said:

I know that the 99% WAVA runners on the group aren't
going to bother with the penguins and the plodders and
that's OK by me.

Please feel free to email me off-board. You have a distorted
view of rec.running that is not good and I want to know why.
Donovan occasionally comes off short when he is offering
advice, but apart from that, I just don't see what you do.

Quoted message said:

So me and DadatHome have got this little corner where
we can encourage each other and be interested in each other's trifling
triumphs and miniature challenges, and any other newbies who wander in
can join us too if they like.

Sounds pretty polarizing to me.

Quoted message said:

So I think we'll stay just as we are, thanks very much.

Sounds pretty polarizing to me.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton ON)
www.absolutelyaccurate.com
www.allfalldown.org

Tim Downie said:

You might like to consider whether posting your training logs as a separate
thread isn't actually attracting the attention of the trolls. By putting
"Newbie" in you subject header you are, in effect, waving a flag and saying
"Here I am, come and get me" to the trolls.

Usenet can be a bit of a jungle at times and the doe-eyed helpless look
isn't necessarily the best survival strategy. If you were to simply post
your logs in the regular "training week" thread it would attract much less
negative attention. Don't forget that we were all "newbies" once and you
don't need to feel self-concious about your speed or your mileage in the
regular training week thread.

Tim, you numnutz weirdo! How juvenile for us to attack such easy prey.
I prefer bigger game.Besides, she sent me a pic, she has big ones.

Quoted message said:

Ultimately, it's up to you guys (I mean the real test is if this makes newbies
happy), but is it really helpful to establish a convention whereby "newbies"
get a "separate but equal" training week thread ?

'nother question: What are the criteria for posting? If someone
mentions their lactate threshold will they be asked to leave? If
someone goes over 30 miles for three straight weeks will they be
banished to the "regular" training-week thread? What if someone breaks
25 in the 5K or runs a marathon under 4 hours? Will Mel and DadatHome
one day decide they're no longer "newbies", or will they simply decide
that they and anyone slower than them qualifies?

I'm curious how the keepers of the Newbie thread will address these
issues when they arise.

--
Brian P. Baresch
Fort Worth, Texas, USA
Professional editing and proofreading

If you're going through hell, keep going. --Winston Churchill

Brian Baresch said:

Quoted message said:

Ultimately, it's up to you guys (I mean the real test is if this makes newbies
happy), but is it really helpful to establish a convention whereby "newbies"
get a "separate but equal" training week thread ?

Quoted message said:

'nother question: What are the criteria for posting? If someone
mentions their lactate threshold will they be asked to leave? If
someone goes over 30 miles for three straight weeks will they be
banished to the "regular" training-week thread? What if someone breaks
25 in the 5K or runs a marathon under 4 hours? Will Mel and DadatHome
one day decide they're no longer "newbies", or will they simply decide
that they and anyone slower than them qualifies?

The holidays are here again. Time for a re-release of an all-time favorite:
the running vs. jogging thread. ;-)

jobs