Newbie seeking help for marathon training

[email hidden] writes:
: Hi all. I am a (former) competetive cyclist who just moved to the
: Midwest where people (hicks) throw and yell things at cyclists...so I
: decided to switch my focus to running a marathon, something I've
: considered for a while.

Great decision. Now they will just try to run over you as you run
along the side of the road!

Quoted message said:

Hi all. I am a (former) competetive cyclist who just moved to the
Midwest where people (hicks) throw and yell things at cyclists...so I
decided to switch my focus to running a marathon,

....

Quoted message said:

am not hoping to break three hours, but I would like to finish in four.

i suggest that you have nothing to base a goal on until
you have at least run some long runs. even then, the marathon
will be unknown territory and you might be best just to plan
to finish your first one.

Quoted message said:

Again, I am new to running, but have strong legs and considerable
endurance racing experience. Since I'm in the first of 18 weeks, I
could switch to an easier program. The one I'm doing now hits two 20
milers, at 16 and 18 weeks; it has two rest days and one cross training
day.

....
you could use the schedule to give you an idea of what you
should be doing each week. if you find the progression
within your means and no injuries begin to grow, then it's
the right one. i'd expect you to find that you don't get the
long runs done, that your weekly mileage is not as per the
schedule and that you find it exhausting. that's fine.
you can still use it with the understanding that you may
be doing the schedule at 80%.

good luck...thehick

Ah, yes, I've figured that one out...but at least you can see them
coming! Plus, running is perceived as less "gay" than cycling (no
lycra, shaved legs...).

There are exceptions to the rule that "roads are not for runners or
cyclists;" both are okay in certain circumstances. Running is okay
whenever it is practiced to evade police or fleeing a crime scene;
cycling is okay whenver at least two of the following three apply: (1)
the bike is the sole means of transportation because a motorized
vehicle is beyond the scope of financial feasibility; (2) the drop bars
are flipped upside down for aesthetic reasons and the seat lowered to
ensure maximum knee damage; and (3) cut-off jeans and a baseball cap
replace proper gear/attire :-|

Quoted message said:

First, I am concerned with avoiding injury foremost.

If that really is first and foremost, and coupled with a desire to run
98-100% of the course, I'd suggest that you defer running a full
marathon regardless of your excellent cardio condition from the
cycling.

It's not a strong heart, good lungs, and plentiful mitochondria which
allow your body to laugh off the kind of pounding you'll absorb from
even the easiest of the schedules you're considering. The
running-specific adaptations which will support marathon training take
time, much longer than 18 weeks.

A couple years ago at age 35 (but not involved in athletics) I found 7
or 8 months too short to ramp up to the sort of intermediate or
"advanced beginner" ("surely they're not counting *me* as a beginner,"
I repeatedly thought, seduced in part by Bob Glover's insistence on
handing out titles based on speed and not experience) plans you're
looking at without repeatedly injuring myself, and eventually failing
to make it to the starting line. The next year was much the same
except having failed to run say 30-40 MPW injury-free in year 1, I now
failed to run more like 40-50 MPW injury-free. Had to keep moving
onward and upward, you know. Ran a super [censored] marathon, literally
45+ mins slower than projected time. Went into the race injured,
overtrained, and much better read but still not so good at correlating
all that data with my own experience and drawing conclusions.

This year a combination of slower mileage buildup, more knowledge of
what the hell I'm doing, running most of my mileage slower, inviting
injury in fewer stoopid ways - and also finally having some obvious
physical running adaptations in fuller force - has allowed me to build
to 55 MPW (so far) with zero injury, feeling great, and expecting to
finally run a decent marathon - with other good performances in shorter
distances along the way as well.

Your mileage will most definitely vary, but 18-20 weeks of running
prior to a marathon? I'm very dubious. Run a half marathon instead -
and be aware that you won't run a very good half either, compared to
what you'll be capable of in another six months, but training for and
completing it will be fraught with much less danger.

Quoted message said:

I've done lots of 'net fishing, purchased the
proper gear,

Let me guess, nikes? Whatever you are wearing, they are wrong for your
running style. See below.

Quoted message said:

First, I am concerned with avoiding injury foremost. I've never had any
injury from cycling, although two years ago I had knee surgery due to
an alpine ski impact (my ankle was also seriously hurt in the
accident). Sometimes when I run, my knees hurt, but the pain then goes
away. Also, since I've begun running regularly, my ankles hurt--this
pain is very minor, and only detectable when my foot is rotated to an
extreme position inward. It is not painful to run or walk on them, and
both conditions do not seem to be worsening.

Find a good, qualified running shop, and let them set you up with
proper shoes. Everything you write indicates to me that you are either
wearing nikes, or the wrong shoes for your style of running.
Next, either forget about running a good time, and concentrate of LSD.
You need to build a good base mileage before doing speedwork. Running
fast, especially so soon, is a RX for injury. Do your mileage as slow
as possible, build speed later.
TBR

TBR
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."

[email hidden] wrote:
....

Quoted message said:

First, I am concerned with avoiding injury foremost. I've never had any
injury from cycling, although two years ago I had knee surgery due to
an alpine ski impact (my ankle was also seriously hurt in the
accident). Sometimes when I run, my knees hurt, but the pain then goes
away. Also, since I've begun running regularly, my ankles hurt--this
pain is very minor, and only detectable when my foot is rotated to an
extreme position inward. It is not painful to run or walk on them, and
both conditions do not seem to be worsening.

For curiosity, have you been doing any strengthening exercises for knees
and ankles? It might be prentative maintenance. You may also find that
if you slow down, fewer things may hurt (see hrm post). Just some thoughts.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people"
-Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

6. The Bill Rodgers Aug 3, 3:09 am show options
Newsgroups: rec.running
From: The Bill Rodgers <[email hidden]> - Find messages by this
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Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:09:33 -0400
Local: Wed, Aug 3 2005 3:09 am
Subject: Re: Newbie seeking help for marathon training
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Quoted message said:

I've done lots of 'net fishing, purchased the
proper gear,

Let me guess, nikes? Whatever you are wearing, they are wrong for your
running style. See below.

Find a good, qualified running shop, and let them set you up with
proper shoes. Everything you write indicates to me that you are either
wearing nikes, or the wrong shoes for your style of running.
******
Actually, those are the steps I followed, and I am wearing Avia 2051.
Footwear is always difficult for my in any sport, because my feet are
not shaped like "average" feet. I think my minor pain has to do with
getting used to running, which would back up what everyone is saying:
slow down!

For curiosity, have you been doing any strengthening exercises for
knees
and ankles?
******
So far I have stayed away from weights because I don't have access.
This may be a really good idea, especially because my knees get pulled
to the outside due to my muscle structure as a cyclist.

Quoted message said:

Actually, those are the steps I followed, and I am wearing Avia 2051.
Footwear is always difficult for my in any sport, because my feet are
not shaped like "average" feet. I think my minor pain has to do with
getting used to running, which would back up what everyone is saying:
slow down!

Then try again. Those ARE the wrong shoes! I don't think "Avia" is a
reputable brand either.

TBR
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."

Quoted message said:

So far I have stayed away from weights because I don't have access.
This may be a really good idea, especially because my knees get pulled
to the outside due to my muscle structure as a cyclist.

Everyday after your runs, do small figure eights, in both directions
(ankles), and then do an 1/8th to a 1/4 mile running backwards. These
two combined with the NEW SHOES I RECOMMENDED will solve your issues.

TBR
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."

"The Bill Rodgers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Actually, those are the steps I followed, and I am wearing Avia 2051.
Footwear is always difficult for my in any sport, because my feet are
not shaped like "average" feet. I think my minor pain has to do with
getting used to running, which would back up what everyone is saying:
slow down!

Then try again. Those ARE the wrong shoes! I don't think "Avia" is a
reputable brand either.

How about Keds? Actually Shop Rite sells some shoes under their own brand
that seem fine.

Quoted message said:

TBR
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and
the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."

Running a marathon with less than a years of running
experience is simply not advisable. Period.

"rick++" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Running a marathon with less than a years of running
experience is simply not advisable. Period.

what if you ran for years...then stopped for awhile...then 6 months before
the marathon started training again...would that count? or do you mean you
need at least a year to train for a marathon?

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Let me guess, nikes? Whatever you are wearing, they are wrong for your
running style. See below.

Find a good, qualified running shop, and let them set you up with
proper shoes. Everything you write indicates to me that you are either
wearing nikes, or the wrong shoes for your style of running.
******
Actually, those are the steps I followed, and I am wearing Avia 2051.
Footwear is always difficult for my in any sport, because my feet are
not shaped like "average" feet. I think my minor pain has to do with
getting used to running, which would back up what everyone is saying:
slow down!

In many cases the best footwear goes outside the expertise of a good
running shoe store.
Given that you've already had knee problems, and are feeling some
unusual stuff in your ankle, I suggest you find a good podiatrist in your
area with experience in athletes. (It's much different then the regular
bunion-cutting). It may pay to call the local university's athletic trainer
and ask what podiatrist they send their athletes to. You can do it now,
maybe get orthotics, and start on better footing (sorry), or chance it and
see whether that ankle and the knees grow through it. IME the first one is
the best option since you'll end up doing that once you get injured anyway.

Regarding the switch from cycling to running, here is some stuff I wrote
that I won't retype:
http://groups.google.com/group/uk.rec.running/msg/2905b925bde8ca5e?hl=en&

Specifically, the part about form.

Dave

Quoted message said:

what do you suspect I *should* be looking for in a running shoe?

An Asics logo, in The World According to Bill.

Quoted message said:

From your description you did everything right in buying these shoes

and they're probably a fine shoe for you until proven otherwise.

Quoted message said:

Based on that information, what do you suspect I *should* be looking
for in a running shoe? I appreciate the help.

New ones. Seriously, keep trying until you find the right ones that
don't hurt. You'll know it almost immediately after running in them.

TBR
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."

On 3 Aug 2005 07:08:53 -0700, "Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

An Asics logo, in The World According to Bill.

This jerk is full of [censored]. He's a newbie with almost ZERO experience,
but in a few short months of running he's learned it all!
Any reputable shoe will probably do, and nikes are not.

TBR
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."

David Geesaman said:

You can do it now,
maybe get orthotics, a

Here we go...
Orthotics are a last and final resort. Do not do this unless all else
has failed.

TBR
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."

Quoted message said:

For curiosity, have you been doing any strengthening exercises for
knees
and ankles?
******
So far I have stayed away from weights because I don't have access.
This may be a really good idea, especially because my knees get pulled
to the outside due to my muscle structure as a cyclist.

Weights are only one form of strengthening exercises and may not be the
best for the types of issues you seem to be describing.

For knees, I was thinking something like straight leg lifts. For ankles
/ feet, I do toe pulls across floor and rotations (circles,
forward/back, lateral, write alphabet, or things along those lines). I
usually do them daily even on running days. For me, they're an "apple a
day"...

During strength buildup (and occasionally during main running season),
I've used things like single-leg squat balances - including progression
to eyes closed. I can't remember the name of the drill, but it's like
single-leg squat balance but reaching forward/backward, left/right, and
diagonally with the leg not on the ground. I also do lunges in multiple
directions. Strengthening in all directions is important for running.

Caveat: these are what I use for strengthening some foot biomechanics
and muscle imbalance issues diagnosed by my PT. They may not be the ones
that are best for you. These are just a starting place to give you an
idea of strength and flexibility training.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people"
-Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope