Newbie question about hills

brandyleigh35 said:

What is the average distance/height for say like a tough hill? If we were looking to get good at it, what would be a time/speed/height we should be working towards? I hope this doesn't sound too ignorant, as we really are new to all of this biking stuff.

Thanks for your help.

Brandy

You may get some obnoxious answers here telling you your question is wrongly put, or worse, but I've had a similar desire obtain some sort of benchmarks based on other riders, not just my own performance. Here's what I'm working with right or wrong. . .

1 - You mention that it takes you something like 40 minutes, so pick out a portion of the climb that takes you about 20 minutes, hopefully about 10 minutes or so into the climb, so that you'll be warmed up and at a steady pace, (but not too worn out) when you start the test section. Find out the average slope of this section. It needs to be all uphill with a relatively constant slope. You can go to www.topozone.com for a topographical map to help calculate slope in % as 100 * (ending altitude - beginning altitude)/distance in feet.

2 - Ride up your hill and measure/calculate your average speed for the test section.

3 - Go to http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm and enter the various data about yourself and your bike (height, weight, bike type, bike weight, etc.) along with the slope and speed data to get an average power output for the climb.

4 - Divide this number by your own weight (just your weight, don't include bike, clothes, bottles, etc.) in kg. (divide weight in lbs by 2.2)

5 - Go to http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/images/powerprofile_v3.gif and look in 20 minute column to see where you stack up against various levels of riders. Note that there are 5 minute and 1 minute columns too. You can work with these one if you want, but be aware that the idea is that this is what you can do over 5 minutes or 1 minute with a level of effort that will require you to then slow way down, not keep riding up a hill for another half hour.

Now the advice others will give you: don't worry too much about how you stack up against other riders. Work to improve your performance over time, regardless of where you are now.

Good luck!
J

It looks to me as though you are generating an average of 150 watts for the 3 mile climb. That's very respectable for a new cyclist. On a flat road with no wind, that power will move you along at a speed >15mph. You might want to vary your climbing technique over the course of the climb, alternating every few minutes between on/off the saddle. This will probably require a change in gears (smaller gear on the saddle), which is more difficult when the bike is moving slowly. When you climb off the saddle, use your body weight on the downstroke and keep your upper body relaxed. You can easily generate 200w of power with body weight alone. Climbing on the saddle will stress your muscles more, whereas climbing off the saddle will raise your heart rate and will stress your aerobic system more.

brandyleigh35 said:

My dh and I just recently started riding our bikes for fitness and to lose a few pounds. We have both always worked out and started our biking doing short rides (45 minutes to 1 hour) of nothing but hills. We currently do a 3 mile ride which is almost all uphill, with the last mile being very steep (It is at least 10% or more.) It consists of a series of 5 switch backs. The whole route takes us about 40 minutes to complete, and is tough (in my opinion.)
WE have managed to accomplish riding this route to the top with no breaks in about 2 weeks time. I'm still struggling a bit with my breathing etc. but it seems to be getting better and easier each day. Is this pretty good progress? Oh...we are 40 years old too, (thought I better add that.)

What is the average distance/height for say like a tough hill? If we were looking to get good at it, what would be a time/speed/height we should be working towards? I hope this doesn't sound too ignorant, as we really are new to all of this biking stuff.

Brandy, hopefully this won't come across as one of the obnoxious responses you were warned about, but before I answer your newbie question let me say that *training is about progressing toward a certain goal*. Looking back at your first sentence your goal seems to be increasing fitness and weight loss, and then you ask "Is this pretty good progress?" You're making good progress if you are moving towards your goal. Certainly you are getting fitter since your ride is getting easier. Have the 2 of you lost any weight? I'll just tell you that it's not necessary to ride up hills like that to get fit or lose weight, but if you enjoy it then go for it, *as long as you are seeing progress towards your goals*.

Anyway, 3 miles at 4+% would be a tough hill, IMO. 3 miles at 6% with a 1mi kicker at 10+% would be a killer! Just the fact that you can make it up without stopping is pretty good. Is there a reason that you chose this spot for your rides? Do you keep riding after this hill, or does your workout consist of just an 'up & back'? How many days a week do you do it?

jjjtttggg said:

Now the advice others will give you: don't worry too much about how you stack up against other riders. Work to improve your performance over time, regardless of where you are now.

As I read back what I wrote it sounds like I'm saying I disagree with the "advice others will give you". Actually that's not what I meant at all. I fully agree with Frenchy's comments (as usual!). The idea is to make progress toward your own goals. I just wanted to point out that there's nothing wrong with also wanting to benchmark yourself against others and share my idea of how to do it.

Best regards,
J

jjjtttggg said:

As I read back what I wrote it sounds like I'm saying I disagree with the "advice others will give you". Actually that's not what I meant at all. I fully agree with Frenchy's comments (as usual!). The idea is to make progress toward your own goals. I just wanted to point out that there's nothing wrong with also wanting to benchmark yourself against others and share my idea of how to do it.

The problem faced by many newbies is that, being new, they don't know what questions to ask to get the information that will help them become veterans. Comparisons are good motivators for people who are very competitive, but they can be very discouraging for newbies. Also, there's really no benefit to compare yourself with very fit, experienced riders or racers when you already acknowlege that you're new to riding, overweight, or just starting to develp some fitness.

What newbies need most is experience. To stick with it long enough to get that experience they need encouragement, tips on how to have fun on the bike, and advice on how to make rapid, visible progress toward their goals.

While I'm already up here on the soapbox:
"Newbies -- scan through some of the other threads before starting a new one. We know you're new, but if you read the other threads a little, you'll learn some stuff that'll give you some insight on what questions to ask to get the most valuable help." [/soapbox] :p

"Have the 2 of you lost any weight? I'll just tell you that it's not necessary to ride up hills like that to get fit or lose weight, but if you enjoy it then go for it, *as long as you are seeing progress towards your goals*
Anyway, 3 miles at 4+% would be a tough hill, IMO. 3 miles at 6% with a 1mi kicker at 10+% would be a killer! Just the fact that you can make it up without stopping is pretty good. Is there a reason that you chose this spot for your rides? Do you keep riding after this hill, or does your workout consist of just an 'up & back'? How many days a week do you do it?"

Thank you for the feedback, yes we have been losing weight, actually I have been dropping like a lb every couple of days. The reason we choose this course is that we are busy people. We don't have a lot of time to dedicate to excercise each day and we sorta want to get the most bang for our buck at this point. The mountain is very challenging and we can leave from our house, ride the full route, and be back in less than an hour (now that we have gotten faster at it). Its a relatively quick, but very intense workout, and we like the idea of challenging ourselfs each time. We do this ride at least 4 days a week, usually 5 with two days off throughout the week. We are going to start varying our rides a bit more in the next few weeks, but we mostly were just wondering how this particular hill stacked up in terms of difficulty. Sounds like we are doing pretty well, so I'm happy with our progress.

We are sorta trying to train for a bike race at the end of the month that is 6 miles uphill but at a lesser incline, like around 4-6%. Thanks again for your input I appreciate it.

Brandy

jjjtttggg said:

You may get some obnoxious answers here telling you your question is wrongly put, or worse, but I've had a similar desire obtain some sort of benchmarks based on other riders, not just my own performance. Here's what I'm working with right or wrong. . .

1 - You mention that it takes you something like 40 minutes, so pick out a portion of the climb that takes you about 20 minutes, hopefully about 10 minutes or so into the climb, so that you'll be warmed up and at a steady pace, (but not too worn out) when you start the test section. Find out the average slope of this section. It needs to be all uphill with a relatively constant slope. You can go to www.topozone.com for a topographical map to help calculate slope in % as 100 * (ending altitude - beginning altitude)/distance in feet.

2 - Ride up your hill and measure/calculate your average speed for the test section.

3 - Go to http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm and enter the various data about yourself and your bike (height, weight, bike type, bike weight, etc.) along with the slope and speed data to get an average power output for the climb.

4 - Divide this number by your own weight (just your weight, don't include bike, clothes, bottles, etc.) in kg. (divide weight in lbs by 2.2)

5 - Go to http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/images/powerprofile_v3.gif and look in 20 minute column to see where you stack up against various levels of riders. Note that there are 5 minute and 1 minute columns too. You can work with these one if you want, but be aware that the idea is that this is what you can do over 5 minutes or 1 minute with a level of effort that will require you to then slow way down, not keep riding up a hill for another half hour.

Now the advice others will give you: don't worry too much about how you stack up against other riders. Work to improve your performance over time, regardless of where you are now.

Good luck!
J

Wow! Thank you for all the info, I will definitely check all this out.

Brandy

brandyleigh35 said:

Thank you for the feedback, yes we have been losing weight, actually I have been dropping like a lb every couple of days. The reason we choose this course is that we are busy people. We don't have a lot of time to dedicate to excercise each day and sorta want to get the most bang for our buck. The mountain is very challenging and we can leave from our house, ride the full route, and be back in less than an hour. Its a fast, but very intense workout and we like the idea of challenging ourselfs each time. Plus we are sorta trying to train for a bike race at the end of the month that is 6miles uphill but at a lesser incline, like around 4-6%. Thanks again for your input.

Sounds good. The high-intensity approach is definitely optimal for people with limited training time. I'd guess that a 6% hill would be 'raced' at ~10-12mph, which would be about 15-18 minutes bottom to top for your 3mi hill. If you wanted to set a time goal for yourself, the easiest way would be to look up the time results from last year's race and convert that to mph. You can even use some of the websites mentioned above to convert mph to power and then back to mph for a different slope, if you wanted a more exact target. I'd say you still have quite a ways to go, but I'd be very surprised if 2 beginners were able to really compete in a race with only a couple weeks' preparation. Keep your expectations realistic, and good luck.

frenchyge said:

Sounds good. The high-intensity approach is definitely optimal for people with limited training time. I'd guess that a 6% hill would be 'raced' at ~10-12mph, which would be about 15-18 minutes bottom to top for your 3mi hill. If you wanted to set a time goal for yourself, the easiest way would be to look up the time results from last year's race and convert that to mph. You can even use some of the websites mentioned above to convert mph to power and then back to mph for a different slope, if you wanted a more exact target. I'd say you still have quite a ways to go, but I'd be very surprised if 2 beginners were able to really compete in a race with only a couple weeks' preparation. Keep your expectations realistic, and good luck.

Thanks for the suggestions. We are going to do the race just for fun, we are certainly not looking to really place but just want to see if we can do it, mostly for the challenge. I have been told that there are very few women who compete in this race so if I just finish it I will be happy! LOL...

Brandy

brandyleigh35 said:

I have been told that there are very few women who compete in this race so if I just finish it I will be happy! LOL...

If you're the only one, then you'll win your category for sure! 😄

If you're going to continue to train (and race) mostly on hills, it will definitely be worth the effort to work on your technique off the saddle and alternating between on/off the saddle. So, here goes. Climbing off the saddle is much closer to dancing than cycling. Basically, you use your full body weight on the downstroke. At a high cadence (e.g., 85-100), this generates a tremendous amount of power and you'll just rocket up the hill. When you consider that Lance Armstrong is applying ~130 lbs of weight to his cranks when he is doing 500w TTs, I'm sure either of you can apply 130 lbs of force to your cranks off the saddle. Ergo, you have Lance Armstrong power. Cool, huh? That brings us to the question of how to generate a high cadence off the saddle, which brings us to the comparison with a dance. The key is to allow your body weight to drive the downstroke leg all the way to the bottom of the stroke and at that very instant your weight alone will tilt the bike over for the downstroke of the other leg. The arms and upper body don't "throw" the bike over, but rather your leg force tilts it over and your arms just hold the bars. If you go up a hill with the sun directly at your back so that you ca see your shadow, your bike is tilting back and forth but your upper body remains largely vertical and very stable. Guys who are throwing their bikes back and forth are just wearing themselve out. Use physics (i.e., gravity) to your full advantage. Anyway, play with it. When you get it down, you can really "dance" up the hills.

RapDaddyo said:

If you're going to continue to train (and race) mostly on hills, it will definitely be worth the effort to work on your technique off the saddle and alternating between on/off the saddle. So, here goes. Climbing off the saddle is much closer to dancing than cycling. Basically, you use your full body weight on the downstroke. At a high cadence (e.g., 85-100), this generates a tremendous amount of power and you'll just rocket up the hill. When you consider that Lance Armstrong is applying ~130 lbs of weight to his cranks when he is doing 500w TTs, I'm sure either of you can apply 130 lbs of force to your cranks off the saddle. Ergo, you have Lance Armstrong power. Cool, huh? That brings us to the question of how to generate a high cadence off the saddle, which brings us to the comparison with a dance. The key is to allow your body weight to drive the downstroke leg all the way to the bottom of the stroke and at that very instant your weight alone will tilt the bike over for the downstroke of the other leg. The arms and upper body don't "throw" the bike over, but rather your leg force tilts it over and your arms just hold the bars. If you go up a hill with the sun directly at your back so that you ca see your shadow, your bike is tilting back and forth but your upper body remains largely vertical and very stable. Guys who are throwing their bikes back and forth are just wearing themselve out. Use physics (i.e., gravity) to your full advantage. Anyway, play with it. When you get it down, you can really "dance" up the hills.

I measured our training hill last night. It goes at the hardest point (the last mile) from 800ft to 1370ft. We then went and checked out the race hill, and while the distance is longer (6 miles vs 3 miles) the hills are not near as steep as what we have been climbing and they have long recovery periods inbetween each one. The main difference is that the race course is on dirt, not pavement which sorta stinks! I can see its one of those courses that is really gonna beat us up! I agree I need to work on my on saddle and off saddle technique, but I have one bad knee so sometimes standing up bothers it if I do it for a long time. I have tried standing up a bit on our training hill and it is very difficult, almost too steep, if that is possible. At this point it is all I can do to just sit and pedal up the thing! LOL.... but I'm sure as my legs get stronger and I get the breathing down better it will all level out. Thanks for all of your help!

Brandy