newbie chicken soup question

G'day Hope
You are best making a good chook stock by buying 1kg of raw chicken
carcasses at the super. Say 3-4 frames for a large pot of water (your
4-5 ltrs). Place carcasses in pot, add a carrot peeled and chunked, a
couple of sticks of celery incl. leaves, half an onion, parsley stalks
if some are handy, 10 whole black peppercorns, 2 tsp salt if desired.
Other additions can include a star anise and a couple of slices of
fresh ginger if you want a slightly asian bent to the stock. Now,
cover with cold water and bring slowly to the boil.
As it boils, spoon off any scum that accumulates on the surface.
Simmer gently for an hour with a lid 9/10ths on. Strain thru a
colander and leave to cool. Trash the solids (unless your cat likes the
little bits of chicken taking care to remove any tiny bones first). Put
in fridge and when quite cold, spoon off any accumiulated solid white
fat.
This recipe produces a wonderful flavoured stock for many purposes.
Freeze in several containers. Boiling this stock further will be give
a more concentrated stock/flavour.
Try this instead of drumsticks and you will be mightily rewarded <g>.
Let us know if you are still experiencing problems and we'll try to
help. I don't know the answers to your specific Q.s, I never use
cooked carcasses, but some may swear by that method.....
Cheers
Bronwyn
Qld

Bronwyn said:

G'day Hope
You are best making a good chook stock by buying 1kg of raw chicken
carcasses at the super. Say 3-4 frames for a large pot of water (your
4-5 ltrs). Place carcasses in pot, add a carrot peeled and chunked, a
couple of sticks of celery incl. leaves, half an onion, parsley stalks
if some are handy, 10 whole black peppercorns, 2 tsp salt if desired.
Other additions can include a star anise and a couple of slices of
fresh ginger if you want a slightly asian bent to the stock. Now,
cover with cold water and bring slowly to the boil.
As it boils, spoon off any scum that accumulates on the surface.
Simmer gently for an hour with a lid 9/10ths on. Strain thru a
colander and leave to cool. Trash the solids (unless your cat likes the
little bits of chicken taking care to remove any tiny bones first). Put
in fridge and when quite cold, spoon off any accumiulated solid white
fat.
This recipe produces a wonderful flavoured stock for many purposes.
Freeze in several containers. Boiling this stock further will be give
a more concentrated stock/flavour.
Try this instead of drumsticks and you will be mightily rewarded <g>.
Let us know if you are still experiencing problems and we'll try to
help. I don't know the answers to your specific Q.s, I never use
cooked carcasses, but some may swear by that method.....
Cheers
Bronwyn
Qld

Thanks Bronwyn!

I used to buy those 'frames' but the lady at Coles told me today that
they're not stocking them any more, they're having more disgusting
pre-marinated chicken products in the deli case instead. So, I
thought drumsticks would be even better- dark meat, lots of marrowy
bones... but nah, nothin. Weird. DO you know why it's so? I have
way more chicken to water than in the 'frames' version but it tastes
like nothin at all...

Hope
NSW :-)

Nope, obviously needs more research!

Bronwyn, 11 km north of the NSW border <g>

"Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bronwyn said:

G'day Hope
You are best making a good chook stock by buying 1kg of raw chicken
carcasses at the super. Say 3-4 frames for a large pot of water (your
4-5 ltrs). Place carcasses in pot, add a carrot peeled and chunked, a
couple of sticks of celery incl. leaves, half an onion, parsley stalks
if some are handy, 10 whole black peppercorns, 2 tsp salt if desired.
Other additions can include a star anise and a couple of slices of
fresh ginger if you want a slightly asian bent to the stock. Now,
cover with cold water and bring slowly to the boil.
As it boils, spoon off any scum that accumulates on the surface.
Simmer gently for an hour with a lid 9/10ths on. Strain thru a
colander and leave to cool. Trash the solids (unless your cat likes the
little bits of chicken taking care to remove any tiny bones first). Put
in fridge and when quite cold, spoon off any accumiulated solid white
fat.
This recipe produces a wonderful flavoured stock for many purposes.
Freeze in several containers. Boiling this stock further will be give
a more concentrated stock/flavour.
Try this instead of drumsticks and you will be mightily rewarded <g>.
Let us know if you are still experiencing problems and we'll try to
help. I don't know the answers to your specific Q.s, I never use
cooked carcasses, but some may swear by that method.....
Cheers
Bronwyn
Qld

Thanks Bronwyn!

I used to buy those 'frames' but the lady at Coles told me today that
they're not stocking them any more, they're having more disgusting
pre-marinated chicken products in the deli case instead. So, I
thought drumsticks would be even better- dark meat, lots of marrowy
bones... but nah, nothin. Weird. DO you know why it's so? I have
way more chicken to water than in the 'frames' version but it tastes
like nothin at all...

Well, 2 things come to mind - 1, Why be so wasteful with all that good
chicken meat?

2, A far superior stock will be achieved if you roast the parts first before
boiling.

3, (I lied!) Did you crack the bones first? - best way to make full use of
all the goodies inside them is to crack/break the bones before making the
stock.

I would generally use a carcass from after a meal, including any skin that
is left on the carcass, and skin/bones off the plates also, but if I were to
use the drumsticks, I would roast the whole lot first (makes a huge
difference IMO), remove most of the flesh from them and set aside,
crack/break the bones (I use a big cleaver), I also pull any knuckle
cartilage off the bones, put all but the meat into your stock pot, add
whatever stock veggies you require (I always, ALWAYS use carrot in mine, but
that's just me, also I always cut any veggies into small pieces unlike
most), put in some water to just about cover the bones, add a little salt
(not to season here - I find it helps get the flavours out and into the
liquid), bring to a rolling boil, leave for 5 mins then turn down to a high
simmer and cover. Top up with boiling water if and as needed, but DO NOT
drown it all.

I'd leave that from anywhere between 1 and 3 hours depending (on what else I
had to do!), strain it off, put back into the (rinsed out) pot, taste and
season/reduce in volume as you desire. This makes a very rich, full, sweet
flavoured, sticky, gelatinous (when cold) stock. When cooled to cold, any
fat you don't want in there, can just be removed in solid pieces from the
top (I leave it all in, personally).

You also have all that lovely roasted drumstick meat to add to any soup you
are going to make, which of course will add even more flavour to the
finished pot.

Hope this helps some!

Shaun aRe - I'm kinda well known for my chicken stocks amongst family and
friends, I think it's the most versatile meat stock there is - been making
it for soups, stir-fries and such since I was bout 13 years old, and after
every Christmas, my mother calls me over to make the turkey stock to go in
freezer (think it was about 3 gal or so last year) - since I can't stand
stock cubes, I try to convert everyone I know. ',;~}~

Shaun aRe said:

Well, 2 things come to mind - 1, Why be so wasteful with all that good
chicken meat?

Well, drumsticks were very cheap and I did put the meat back in later.

Quoted message said:

2, A far superior stock will be achieved if you roast the parts first before
boiling.

AH! I didn't know that.

Quoted message said:

3, (I lied!) Did you crack the bones first? - best way to make full use of
all the goodies inside them is to crack/break the bones before making the
stock.

nope, but I sure will next time.

<snip> of recipe... saved to my files, thanks heaps.

Hope

"Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have to ask. How is it that when I attempt
to make chicken stock for soup, I buy a kilo
or so of drumsticks, and boil it up with the
usual vegetable extras... and I end up with
a watery substance that smells great but tastes
like nothin'. Then I have to add "chicken stock
concentrate" from a package to end up with
something edible. I guess I am using too much
water.

Some questions:

1. How long are you simmering your stock? I keep mine at a very low simmer
(really, just a shimmer of movement over the surface) for at least three
hours, sometimes more. Ideally, you want all of the flavor from the meat to
be in the stock.

2. What kind of quality is the chicken you're using? If the chicken isn't
good quality and full of flavor, you're not going to get good stock from it.
And older is better, when you're looking for flavor -- look for a stewing
hen.

3. How much salt is in the "chicken stock concentrate" that you're using?
Could it be that the flavor you're missing is salt?

4. It's possible that your stock is a bit short on chicken -- when you cover
the chicken with water, how much higher than the chicken is the water level?
IMO, it shouldn't be by more than an inch or so.

For fuller flavor, try roasting the meat and/or bones at relatively high
heat in the oven until they're a nice golden color, being careful not to
burn them or the drippings. Tumble the meat into your stockpot, deglaze the
roasting pan, add aromatics (onion, carrot, celery/celeriac, bouquet
garni -- and ginger and garlic, if you're making a stock exclusively for
chinese and asian cooking), add enough water to cover and bring to a boil.
Immediately reduce the heat to bring the stock down to a *really* gentle
simmer, skim the foam from the stock (and skim and skim and skim -- you'll
get a much prettier end product that way), cover and simmer for three to
four hours -- or longer, if you've a mind to. Meat stock-making is a
time-consuming process -- don't rush it.

-j

Hope said:

Shaun aRe said:

Well, 2 things come to mind - 1, Why be so wasteful with all that

good

Quoted message said:

chicken meat?

Well, drumsticks were very cheap and I did put the meat back in later.

Quoted message said:

2, A far superior stock will be achieved if you roast the parts first

before

Quoted message said:

boiling.

AH! I didn't know that.

Quoted message said:

3, (I lied!) Did you crack the bones first? - best way to make full

use of

Quoted message said:

all the goodies inside them is to crack/break the bones before making

the

Quoted message said:

stock.

nope, but I sure will next time.

<snip> of recipe... saved to my files, thanks heaps.

Hope

I agree, using the bones & flesh of a cooked piece of meat is better
than sarting a stock from raw uncooked flesh & bones, except with fish
and seafood, which should be used raw and have a much shorter cooking
time than chicken or beef.

Roasting your chicken legs in the oven, then making a stock with them
will be better than puting them to simmer raw assuming you get the
proportions of chicken and water correctly balanced.

I roast a turkey 4 - 5 times a year just for this reason and usually a
chicken at least once a month. Concentrating your rich stock down to a
"glaze" is a handy way of storing it for longer periods than it would
keep as a stock and from which instant stock can be made if necessary.
---
Joseph Littleshoes

"Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Shaun aRe said:

Well, 2 things come to mind - 1, Why be so wasteful with all that good
chicken meat?

Well, drumsticks were very cheap and I did put the meat back in later.

OK, and fair enough! As for putting the meat back in after - it's just
personal preference for me, that the meat still be flavourful and have a
little firmness of texture when it's added to the soup/before the final
simmering, although with /some/ recipes, it is nice to have it very soft and
stringy, IMO.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2, A far superior stock will be achieved if you roast the parts first

before

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

boiling.

AH! I didn't know that.

A lot of meaty flavours are developed during roasting. Same goes for bones
for beef, lamb, and pork stocks - the general 'rule' (I don't tend to like
using that word when it comes to cooking, but it'll have to do in this
case!) is to roast the bones (etc.) before making the stock.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3, (I lied!) Did you crack the bones first? - best way to make full use

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

all the goodies inside them is to crack/break the bones before making the
stock.

Quoted message said:

nope, but I sure will next time.

Cool! I hope you notice and enjoy the difference ',;~}~

Quoted message said:

<snip> of recipe... saved to my files, thanks heaps.

You're welcome heaps Hope!

I love cooking, love food (though you wouldn't think of it to look at me -
I'm like, 6"1' and ~160lb, heheheheh...) - anything I may be able to do to
help someone else's enjoyment of food really is my pleasure.

Cheers!

Shaun aRe

"Joseph Littleshoes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hope said:

Shaun aRe said:

Well, 2 things come to mind - 1, Why be so wasteful with all that

good

Quoted message said:

chicken meat?

Well, drumsticks were very cheap and I did put the meat back in later.

Quoted message said:

2, A far superior stock will be achieved if you roast the parts first

before

Quoted message said:

boiling.

AH! I didn't know that.

Quoted message said:

3, (I lied!) Did you crack the bones first? - best way to make full

use of

Quoted message said:

all the goodies inside them is to crack/break the bones before making

the

Quoted message said:

stock.

nope, but I sure will next time.

<snip> of recipe... saved to my files, thanks heaps.

Hope

I agree, using the bones & flesh of a cooked piece of meat is better
than sarting a stock from raw uncooked flesh & bones, except with fish
and seafood, which should be used raw and have a much shorter cooking
time than chicken or beef.

I would add a counter-exception - crustaceans - best to roast/toast the
shells somewhat before making a stock (well, not stocks, rather serving
sauces!).

Quoted message said:

Roasting your chicken legs in the oven, then making a stock with them
will be better than puting them to simmer raw assuming you get the
proportions of chicken and water correctly balanced.

I roast a turkey 4 - 5 times a year just for this reason and usually a
chicken at least once a month. Concentrating your rich stock down to a
"glaze" is a handy way of storing it for longer periods than it would
keep as a stock and from which instant stock can be made if necessary.

Another reasonably useful idea, is to fill ice cube trays with the conc.
stock, freeze, then bag the cubes - they'll last an age or more and you can
use as many or as few cubes as you need instead of having to defrost a whole
heap each time. Means you can make gorgeous soup for one in minutes without
much fuss (etc.)

Cheers!

Shaun aRe

"Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

hi-

I have to ask. How is it that when I attempt to make chicken stock
for soup, I buy a kilo or so of drumsticks, and boil it up with the
usual vegetable extras... and I end up with a watery substance that
smells great but tastes like nothin'. Then I have to add "chicken
stock concentrate" from a package to end up with something edible. I
guess I am using too much water.

BUT what I want to know is... if say 4-5 litres of water is too much
to make good stock from a kilo of fat drumsticks... WHY can you
supposedly make soup from the leftover carcass of a roast chicken?

Question 1) what *is* a good rule of thumb for getting the meaty
chicken parts : water ratio right?

Question 2) can you really make soup from a chicken carcass after
eating most opf the meat off? Why does this work?

thanks heaps

I put the chicken parts in a pan and add enough water to cover by about 1
inch. Bring to a simmer slowly - helps draw the flavor out - and never boil,
just simmner for a couple of hours at least. In m experience, stock made
from a carcass is usually pretty weak unless you reduce it quite a bit.
After all the flavor is in the meat!

--
Peter Aitken
Visit my recipe and kitchen myths page at www.pgacon.com/cooking.htm

--
Peter Aitken
Visit my recipe and kitchen myths page at www.pgacon.com/cooking.htm

"Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

hi-

I have to ask. How is it that when I attempt to make chicken stock
for soup, I buy a kilo or so of drumsticks, and boil it up with the
usual vegetable extras... and I end up with a watery substance that
smells great but tastes like nothin'.

People have already given you many no-fail tips, so I'll just add...

I usually refrigerate my stock for a night and take the sheet of fat off the
top. Some people like that fat though.
Then I very slowly simmer the stock for a couple more hours until it is
reduced by about 1/3. This really brings out
a richer flavor.

THEN I add my soup fixin's.

I've also found some dry sherry in there really improves my chicken stock.
:-D

cheers

Hope said:

hi-

I have to ask. How is it that when I attempt to make chicken stock
for soup, I buy a kilo or so of drumsticks, and boil it up with the
usual vegetable extras... and I end up with a watery substance that
smells great but tastes like nothin'. Then I have to add "chicken
stock concentrate" from a package to end up with something edible. I
guess I am using too much water.

Probably way too much water.

Quoted message said:

BUT what I want to know is... if say 4-5 litres of water is too much
to make good stock from a kilo of fat drumsticks... WHY can you
supposedly make soup from the leftover carcass of a roast chicken?

Sure, but it won't be chicken soup... it'll be POW gruel.

Quoted message said:

Question 1) what *is* a good rule of thumb for getting the meaty
chicken parts : water ratio right?

Figure one quart water per each pound of *WHOLE* raw chicken, plus
enough to cover evaporation and reduction... I begin with about 1 1/2
quarts per pound.

Quoted message said:

Question 2) can you really make soup from a chicken carcass after
eating most opf the meat off?

Sure you can but it won't be chicken soup... that's like making tea
from used tea bags... think pish wasser.

There is no magic to cooking, most especially soups, you get out
precisely what you put in... garbage in, garbage out. You can use
picked over carcasses and saved scraps to *enhance* a chicken soup but
it still needs the whole raw chicken or it's no better than the swill
from rinsing garbage cans. And it's really not worth the time and
effort to prepare a pot of swill when for the same time and effort one
can prepare a rich luscious chicken soup, but will need to spend the
few pennies for the chicken... chicken is pretty inexpensive ya know...
and after the soup is prepared you still have all that chicken meat, to
add back to the soup or for a terrific chicken salad.

I wouldn't dirty a pot or waste the seasonings if all I have is a
fercocktah carcass and a few wing tips and spines. Whole roasters are
often on sale at 80¢/lb or less (carefully cut out the spine and [censored]
can it, you really don't want the sourness of spinal cord in your
luscious rich soup. For everyday stock/soup I use whole fryers or
roasters, for holiday fare only a stewing hen will do, and often I'll
prepare a special *golden* chicken soup from only the plumpest breasts.
Btw, NEVER buy cut up chicken, not for anything... none of those parts
are from the same bird, that package contains salvaged parts from
diseased birds, the cancerous parts go into the bin for canned soups.

Of course do as your concience and taste dictate... if your taste is in
your ass and you have no shame use garbage.

Sheldon

jacqui{JB} said:

Some questions:

1. How long are you simmering your stock? I keep mine at a very low simmer
(really, just a shimmer of movement over the surface) for at least three
hours, sometimes more. Ideally, you want all of the flavor from the meat to
be in the stock.

About 3-4 hours.

Quoted message said:

2. What kind of quality is the chicken you're using? If the chicken isn't
good quality and full of flavor, you're not going to get good stock from it.
And older is better, when you're looking for flavor -- look for a stewing
hen.

yeah, I asked for an old boiler but they didn't have those any more
either :-(.

Quoted message said:

3. How much salt is in the "chicken stock concentrate" that you're using?
Could it be that the flavor you're missing is salt?

It's actually not that salty (it does have some aslt tho). But I
wondered the same thing, I do think it was chicken flavour that was
lacking, not only salt tho...

Quoted message said:

4. It's possible that your stock is a bit short on chicken -- when you cover
the chicken with water, how much higher than the chicken is the water level?
IMO, it shouldn't be by more than an inch or so.

It sounds like I had an okay ratio of chicken to water. I think
roasting the chicken is the key, I had no idea. I actually would have
thought that uncooked bones/meat would have more to offer the stock,
live and learn.

Quoted message said:

For fuller flavor, try roasting the meat and/or bones at relatively high
heat in the oven until they're a nice golden color, being careful not to
burn them or the drippings. Tumble the meat into your stockpot, deglaze the
roasting pan, add aromatics (onion, carrot, celery/celeriac, bouquet
garni -- and ginger and garlic, if you're making a stock exclusively for
chinese and asian cooking), add enough water to cover and bring to a boil.
Immediately reduce the heat to bring the stock down to a *really* gentle
simmer, skim the foam from the stock (and skim and skim and skim -- you'll
get a much prettier end product that way), cover and simmer for three to
four hours -- or longer, if you've a mind to. Meat stock-making is a
time-consuming process -- don't rush it.

Thanks. I like the idea of ginger and star anise and garlic in there,
I will try that next time.

thanks for the responses!

Hope

On 11 May 2005 12:47:03 -0700, "Sheldon" <[email hidden]> wrote:
WHY can you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

supposedly make soup from the leftover carcass of a roast chicken?

Sure, but it won't be chicken soup... it'll be POW gruel.

yep, that's what I imagine.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Question 1) what *is* a good rule of thumb for getting the meaty
chicken parts : water ratio right?

Figure one quart water per each pound of *WHOLE* raw chicken, plus
enough to cover evaporation and reduction... I begin with about 1 1/2
quarts per pound.

thanks...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Question 2) can you really make soup from a chicken carcass after
eating most opf the meat off?

Sure you can but it won't be chicken soup... that's like making tea
from used tea bags... think pish wasser.

erk.

Quoted message said:

(carefully cut out the spine and [censored]
can it, you really don't want the sourness of spinal cord in your
luscious rich soup.

didn't know that- does that apply to all beasts (well all
vertebrates)?

Quoted message said:

NEVER buy cut up chicken, not for anything... none of those parts
are from the same bird, that package contains salvaged parts from
diseased birds, the cancerous parts go into the bin for canned soups.

oh my gawd really? Tell me this isn't true.

Quoted message said:

Of course do as your concience and taste dictate... if your taste is in
your ass and you have no shame use garbage.

why thank you, I won't.

Hope

In article <[email hidden]>,

rmg said:

"Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

hi-

I have to ask. How is it that when I attempt to make chicken stock
for soup, I buy a kilo or so of drumsticks, and boil it up with the
usual vegetable extras... and I end up with a watery substance that
smells great but tastes like nothin'.

People have already given you many no-fail tips, so I'll just add...

I usually refrigerate my stock for a night and take the sheet of fat off the
top. Some people like that fat though.
Then I very slowly simmer the stock for a couple more hours until it is
reduced by about 1/3. This really brings out
a richer flavor.

THEN I add my soup fixin's.

I've also found some dry sherry in there really improves my chicken stock.
:-D

cheers

Now THAT is a new idea I'll have to try! :-)

I also personally prefer wings to make soup rather than drumsticks, but
I've also used drumsticks with good success.

Thanks!
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

my rule of thumb is one qt. of water per pound of chicken. also stick a
few cloves in the onion. alkem