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New wheels' first run

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UK and Europe
Published
25 October 2007
Last activity
29 October 2007
Original author
David Lloyd
Posts
25
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  1. It's been quite a few years since I last attempted to build my own wheels,
    with varying degrees of success. Anyhow, since I had a pair of nasty, wobbly
    Mavic CXP14s on decent Chorus hubs, and didn't want to ride my Scirrocos
    through winter, I thought it was about time I gave wheel building another
    go.

    I found an online spoke length calculator, based on a database of rims and
    hubs and the length formular from Jobst Brandt's 'The Bicycle Wheel', and
    used that instead of doing the calculations myself. Plumping for a pair of
    Mavic Open Pro CD's, I ended up needing 16x 295mm, 16x 293mm and 32x 296mm
    spokes, to build a standard 3X partern, front and rear.

    Disassembling the old wheels was easy enough. Most spokes unscrewed readily
    using my electric screw driver. Others were not going to budge, as I had had
    to crimp them in place to prevent them from slackening off. Note that these
    wheels were not constructed by me. These obstinate spokes were dispatched
    with a pair of wire cutters, once the tension had been sufficiently reduced
    by the removal of the spokes that were easy to remove.

    After a good cleaning of the hubs on Tuesday evening, I sat down in the
    middle of the lounge floor, 'The Bicycle Wheel' by my side for reference,
    and began inserting the first of the 14/15g DB stainless spokes in the rear
    hub. I was a bit dubious about the spoke lengths at first, as the first two
    sets of pulling spokes seemed to be prouder than the first of the pulling
    spokes. This was on top of not actually finding the correct rim in the spoke
    length calculators database, so I chose another Open Pro and hoped that the
    effective diameter wasn't different between the two models. I needn't have
    worried, for as I screwed all the nipples down until the spokes began to
    emerge from the threads, everything began to become tensioned.

    After bedding the spokes down against the hub flange and manually improving
    the spoke line, I inserted the wheel into the rear triangle of a hack bike
    on my workstand, and began tensioning and trueing. I used a pencil between
    the top of the rim and the seat stays to help me judge radial throw, and
    held the same pencil against the seat stay at brake pad height to detect
    lateral variances. When I was happy with the first pass, I checked the wheel
    against my dishing tool, which showed a gap of 4mm. As the use of a dishing
    tool magnifys the error by a factor of four, this meant that I had to pull
    the rim over to the cassette side by 1mm. It took me two more passes to
    reduce the dish error to zero. With stress relieving, final lateral tweeks
    and having one eye on the tv, the whole rear wheel took three hours to
    complete.

    I had all Wednesday to myself, so I built the front wheel. This went just as
    well, although my workstand is not as well balanced when working on the
    front wheel. When finished, I mounted a new pair of 23c Continental 4 Season
    GPs on the wheels and pumped them up to 8.5 bar. Pity that I had planned a
    lot of house work to get through, but I had to make headway on that or else
    anything pleasurable, like a cycle ride, would have been spoilt by guilt. So
    the first ride would have to wait.

    I'm on jury service right now, and have been spending all the time waiting
    to be selected. They weren't starting any new trials on Wednesday, which is
    why I had the whole day free. Today (Thursday), I nearly got selected for a
    jury in the morning, but was left as one of the spares. We got to 1 o'clock
    and then they decided that no more cases were to start today, and probably
    not Friday either, so we were sent home. Cue opertunity for first ride.

    I swapped the new wheels for the Sciroccos on my Sirius cyclocross bike,
    which is in general road riding guise, with SKS Raceblade mudguards and full
    light set. As I got on, there were a few spoke pings, as residual torsion
    was released under my weight. I took the shortest route out to the country
    lanes from the estate, and headed for a straight run along the A5. As I had
    expected, the ride was as smooth as any other. There were no more pings, and
    there were no issues even when I struch the odd pothole. I had intended to
    take it steady, but with the trucks and the smooth run along the A5, I
    couldn't help but up the gear and inject a little pace. I wanted to be back
    before rush hour got crazy, so I only did 1.5 hours. I put in a good climb
    to the end, a good test for wheel build quality as the old wheels would have
    deflected onto the brake block under torsional load. The new wheels?
    Nothing - no touches even with the block set close.

    Me - one happy bunny.

    David Lloyd

  2. In article <[email hidden]>, David
    Lloyd
    [email hidden] says...
    I needn't have

    Quoted message said:

    worried, for as I screwed all the nipples down until the spokes began to
    emerge from the threads

    Eh?

    Quoted message said:

    As I got on, there were a few spoke pings, as residual torsion
    was released under my weight.

    That wouldn't have happened if you'd relieved the stress properly.

  3. Rob Morley said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, David
    Lloyd
    [email hidden] says...
    I needn't have

    Quoted message said:

    worried, for as I screwed all the nipples down until the spokes began to
    emerge from the threads

    Eh?

    Hmmm. Possibly the spokes are a smidgin too long but with deep box
    rims and a good rimtape (velox) he should get away with it.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    As I got on, there were a few spoke pings, as residual torsion
    was released under my weight.

    That wouldn't have happened if you'd relieved the stress properly.

    Folk who have seen me stress relieving my wheels are often worried by
    how much wheight I put into it, but I can hardly remember ping ping
    ping when I've riden off on a new wheel. Some would say riding a few
    yards is the best way to stress relieve. :-)
    --
    Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

  4. In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:


    That wouldn't have happened if you'd relieved the stress properly.

    Nothing to do with stress relieving which is about the other end of the
    spoke. Its spoke wind-up coupled with not enough spoke tension to stop
    the tension dropping to a level where they can unwind themselves. If
    you are lucky it was the nipple and spoke unwinding together in the rim;
    if you are unlucky it was the spoke unwinding in the nipple in which
    case you have an out of true wheel.

    --
    Tony

    " I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
    Bertrand Russell

  5. In article <[email hidden]>, phil@p-t-
    cook.freeserve.co.uk says...

    Quoted message said:


    Folk who have seen me stress relieving my wheels are often worried by
    how much wheight I put into it, but I can hardly remember ping ping
    ping when I've riden off on a new wheel. Some would say riding a few
    yards is the best way to stress relieve. :-)

    I think you are confused about what stress relieving is and how it is
    achieved.

    --
    Tony

    " I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
    Bertrand Russell

  6. "Rob Morley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, David
    Lloyd
    [email hidden] says...
    I needn't have

    Quoted message said:

    worried, for as I screwed all the nipples down until the spokes began to
    emerge from the threads

    Eh?

    Quoted message said:

    As I got on, there were a few spoke pings, as residual torsion
    was released under my weight.

    That wouldn't have happened if you'd relieved the stress properly.

    When I pulled the spokes together in groups to relieve the stress, it
    doesn't necessarily allow the spokes to untwist as there is still friction
    between the spoke, the nipple and the rim. I did try to consciously over
    tighten and then back each spoke off, but a bit more practise and I won't so
    readily miss those few.

    David Lloyd

  7. "Phil Cook" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Rob Morley said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, David
    Lloyd
    [email hidden] says...
    I needn't have

    Quoted message said:

    worried, for as I screwed all the nipples down until the spokes began to
    emerge from the threads

    Eh?

    Hmmm. Possibly the spokes are a smidgin too long but with deep box
    rims and a good rimtape (velox) he should get away with it.

    When I said 'emerge from the threads', I was meaning at the bottom of the
    nipple's screw slot. The final position for all the spoke ends has turned
    out to be within the screw slot, which I think is dam near purfect. There is
    a long way to go for the spokes to get anywhere near the inner tubes as the
    rims have deep eyelet sockets.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    As I got on, there were a few spoke pings, as residual torsion
    was released under my weight.

    That wouldn't have happened if you'd relieved the stress properly.

    Folk who have seen me stress relieving my wheels are often worried by
    how much wheight I put into it, but I can hardly remember ping ping
    ping when I've riden off on a new wheel. Some would say riding a few
    yards is the best way to stress relieve. :-)

    I think going for a good long ride is the best way to stress relieve, wether
    or not you are riding on new wheels. ;P

    David Lloyd

  8. Tony Raven said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, phil@p-t-
    cook.freeserve.co.uk says...

    Quoted message said:


    Folk who have seen me stress relieving my wheels are often worried by
    how much wheight I put into it, but I can hardly remember ping ping
    ping when I've riden off on a new wheel. Some would say riding a few
    yards is the best way to stress relieve. :-)

    I think you are confused about what stress relieving is and how it is
    achieved.

    OK then, what is it and how is it achieved?
    --
    Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

  9. "Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:


    That wouldn't have happened if you'd relieved the stress properly.

    Nothing to do with stress relieving which is about the other end of the
    spoke. Its spoke wind-up coupled with not enough spoke tension to stop
    the tension dropping to a level where they can unwind themselves. If
    you are lucky it was the nipple and spoke unwinding together in the rim;
    if you are unlucky it was the spoke unwinding in the nipple in which
    case you have an out of true wheel.


    As you tension any spoke, a torsion is applied. Double butted spokes are not
    as good at resisting torsion as thicker plain gauge spokes, and this torsion
    is stored in the spoke when they are highly tensioned, due to the friction
    between the nipple and the rim. I should have been a bit more diligent about
    backing off the nipple at the end of the trueing process, in order to
    untwist the spoke. Any poping spokes would have been spokes and nipples
    untwisting less than 1/8th of a turn, so I'm not overly concerned about the
    trueness. All the same, I will be keeping an eye on everything.

    David Lloyd

  10. Phil Cook said:
    Tony Raven said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, phil@p-t-
    cook.freeserve.co.uk says...

    Quoted message said:


    Folk who have seen me stress relieving my wheels are often worried by
    how much wheight I put into it, but I can hardly remember ping ping
    ping when I've riden off on a new wheel. Some would say riding a few
    yards is the best way to stress relieve. :-)

    I think you are confused about what stress relieving is and how it is
    achieved.

    OK then, what is it and how is it achieved?

    It's supposed to consist of mechanical relief of "residual stress" in
    spoke elbows.

    If you put a permanent bend in a coat-hanger, it springs back a bit.
    After it's sprung back, various regions in the interior of the wire are
    held at an elevated stress by nearby regions which have elongated or
    compressed.

    You can relieve those stresses by heating the wire up (but that has
    other side-effects) or by yanking on the wire again to bring those
    regions of elevated stress to yield.

    The idea is that when the spoke arrives from the factory, it was bent in
    order to form the elbow, and it may therefore contain residual stresses.
    If you don't relieve those, so the story goes, the spoke may experience
    accelerated fatigue and so break after riding on it for a while.

    This all sounds quite suspicious to me because the spoke elbows usually
    bend again during the build anyway. So the bend that was put into the
    spoke at the factory is likely to be ancient history by the time the
    wheel has been put together.

    Conflated with this is a different phenomenon that Jobst Brandt also
    confusingly calls "residual stress". Consider an outbound spoke. You
    correct the spoke line by pushing the spoke against the flange, making
    the angle more acute. The spoke cannot spring back, because the flange
    is in the way, and is held at or close to yield by the tension in the
    spoke applied by the nipple. That high stress is the "residual" stress
    in this version of the story.

    But for ordinary levels of spoke tension to hold the elbow bend close to
    yield implies a high bending moment-- in other words that the spoke has
    not got close enough to flush with the flange. That seems to me a much
    simpler way of looking at the problem. Never mind "residual stress": if
    the spokes aren't close to flush they will experience a high-stress
    bending cycle in use that may lead to failure.

    A good way to "stress-relieve" is to press the hub down against a block
    of wood while holding the rim around the edge. That helps to conform the
    elbows to the flange (by some combination of spoke bending and flange
    yielding), and also lets spokes unwind (pinging, popping, etc.) giving
    you a chance to retrue before putting the wheel back on the bike. We
    call it "stress-relieving", it's generally considered a good idea, but
    as far as I can see it's anyone's guess what the real benefits are. My
    money is on elbow/flange conformity and pinging out windup.

  11. Ben C said:
    Phil Cook said:
    Tony Raven said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, phil@p-t-
    cook.freeserve.co.uk says...
    >
    > Folk who have seen me stress relieving my wheels are often worried by
    > how much wheight I put into it, but I can hardly remember ping ping
    > ping when I've riden off on a new wheel. Some would say riding a few
    > yards is the best way to stress relieve. :-)
    >

    I think you are confused about what stress relieving is and how it is
    achieved.

    OK then, what is it and how is it achieved?

    Quoted message said:

    A good way to "stress-relieve" is to press the hub down against a block
    of wood while holding the rim around the edge. That helps to conform the
    elbows to the flange (by some combination of spoke bending and flange
    yielding), and also lets spokes unwind (pinging, popping, etc.) giving
    you a chance to retrue before putting the wheel back on the bike. We
    call it "stress-relieving", it's generally considered a good idea, but
    as far as I can see it's anyone's guess what the real benefits are. My
    money is on elbow/flange conformity and pinging out windup.

    That's what I do. Press the end of the axle on the (block of wood on
    the) floor whilst pushing on the rim turn it a couple of times and
    repeat and then flip it over and do it again. The wheel goes ping ping
    ping as the spokes unwind. As you say it /seems/ a good idea to
    conform the elbows to the flanges and let the spokes unwind before
    giving the wheel a final true before mounting the tyre and riding off
    on it.
    --
    Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

  12. David Lloyd said:

    After a good cleaning of the hubs on Tuesday evening,

    I'm not familiar with Campagnolo hubs, but I'd have thought this would
    have been a good opportunity to strip and repack them?

    --
    Brian G
    www.wetwo.co.uk

  13. David Lloyd said:

    "Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    That wouldn't have happened if you'd relieved the stress properly.

    Nothing to do with stress relieving which is about the other end of the
    spoke. Its spoke wind-up coupled with not enough spoke tension to stop
    the tension dropping to a level where they can unwind themselves. If
    you are lucky it was the nipple and spoke unwinding together in the rim;
    if you are unlucky it was the spoke unwinding in the nipple in which
    case you have an out of true wheel.

    As you tension any spoke, a torsion is applied. Double butted spokes are not
    as good at resisting torsion as thicker plain gauge spokes, and this torsion
    is stored in the spoke when they are highly tensioned, due to the friction
    between the nipple and the rim. I should have been a bit more diligent about
    backing off the nipple at the end of the trueing process, in order to
    untwist the spoke. Any poping spokes would have been spokes and nipples
    untwisting less than 1/8th of a turn, so I'm not overly concerned about the
    trueness. All the same, I will be keeping an eye on everything.

    I used to wind 1/2 unwind 1/4 (1/4 turn net iyswim) which I thought was
    enough. When I built a wheel using bladed[1] spokes I noticed this was
    no where near enough to prevent windup. For the next one I'm going to
    try and use tape 'flags' to check how much twist there is.

    [1] Yeah, I know, the bladed spokes will resist the twisting far less,
    but it's illustrative.

  14. In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
    says...

    Quoted message said:


    I used to wind 1/2 unwind 1/4 (1/4 turn net iyswim) which I thought was
    enough. When I built a wheel using bladed[1] spokes I noticed this was
    no where near enough to prevent windup. For the next one I'm going to
    try and use tape 'flags' to check how much twist there is.

    You need to learn to do it by feel but tape flags is a good way of
    learning that feel

    --
    Tony

    " I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
    Bertrand Russell

  15. In article <[email hidden]>, David
    Lloyd
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    When I pulled the spokes together in groups to relieve the stress, it
    doesn't necessarily allow the spokes to untwist as there is still friction
    between the spoke, the nipple and the rim. I did try to consciously over
    tighten and then back each spoke off, but a bit more practise and I won't so
    readily miss those few.


    If you stress relieve as others have described (stick it on the floor,
    push down hard around the rim) you both bed in the elbows and
    momentarily slacken the spokes on the other side, allowing them to ping
    back under their own torsion. This applies more force than you can by
    squeezing pairs of spokes with your fingers.

  16. In article <[email hidden]>, David
    Lloyd
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    When I said 'emerge from the threads', I was meaning at the bottom of the
    nipple's screw slot. The final position for all the spoke ends has turned
    out to be within the screw slot, which I think is dam near purfect.

    Ideally they want to be exactly flush with the bottom of the slot, but
    as you say anywhere below the top of the nipple is fine.

  17. In article <[email hidden]>, Phil Cook
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    Hmmm. Possibly the spokes are a smidgin too long but with deep box
    rims and a good rimtape (velox) he should get away with it.


    I'd worry that the spokes were running out of thread if they came past
    the top of the nipples.

  18. In article <[email hidden]>, Tosspot
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    I used to wind 1/2 unwind 1/4 (1/4 turn net iyswim) which I thought was
    enough.

    I only bother with this technique when working on old wheels with
    partially seized nipples. Do you lubricate your nipples when doing a
    fresh build?

  19. Rob Morley said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Tosspot
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    I used to wind 1/2 unwind 1/4 (1/4 turn net iyswim) which I thought was
    enough.

    I only bother with this technique when working on old wheels with
    partially seized nipples. Do you lubricate your nipples when doing a
    fresh build?

    Yep. Light oil or wd40, depending what's to hand. As the tension comes
    up, the twist begins to happen, by the time its fully tensioned up, some
    of the spokes will be quite bad. Tony is right, I can feel it on the
    bad ones, but the ones only wound up a bit I don't notice.

  20. "Rob Morley" <[email hidden]> a écrit:

    Quoted message said:

    If you stress relieve as others have described (stick it on the floor,
    push down hard around the rim) you both bed in the elbows and
    momentarily slacken the spokes on the other side, allowing them to ping
    back under their own torsion. This applies more force than you can by
    squeezing pairs of spokes with your fingers.

    Are you sure about that? If you apply some fraction of your weight laterally
    to the rim at two points, you will indeed be raising the tension in some
    spokes, and reducing the tension in others. But is the tension change in a
    given spoke greater than if you squeeze parallel pairs?

    I know that's not quite what you said...

    James Thomson

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