New Shimano XT, WTF?

Qi said:

Did anybody else notice that Shimano has almost tripled
the price of some of their XT items? (i.e. crankset and
shifters) I personally believe this is a bad move for
Shimano, as it pushes XT parts out of the price range of
many mountain bikers. Shimano's marketing plan to create a
new standard every other year is growing old. I don't
believe it is responsible for a consumer to buy parts from
a manufacturer who will not provide replacement parts 5
years down the line, creating the need for constant
upgrades. Passively screwing the consumer like this is
wrong. I hope more people will turn to other component
manufactures for bicycle parts. Shimano is slowly creating
the niche for other companies to steal there business by
providing quality components at lower prices.

Maybe one day..

-Qi

Its not just Shimano though, check out the prices of Campag
Record 10 Speed rear mechs. Shimano does have a large amount
of backward compatibility, I have pieces from 1987 and 2003
working together properly. This happens in all industries
unfortunately, look at PCs, try to upgrade a 5 year old one
cheaply, you will almost certainly need to buy more parts
than you need because of incompatibilities

Qi said:

Did anybody else notice that Shimano has almost tripled the
price of some of their XT items? (i.e. crankset and
shifters) I personally believe this is a bad move for
Shimano, as it pushes XT parts out of the price range of
many mountain bikers. Shimano's marketing plan to create a
new standard every other year is growing old. I don't
believe it is responsible for a consumer to buy parts from
a manufacturer who will not provide replacement parts 5
years down the line, creating the need for constant
upgrades. Passively screwing the consumer like this is
wrong. I hope more people will turn to other component
manufactures for bicycle parts. Shimano is slowly creating
the niche for other companies to steal there business by
providing quality components at lower prices.

Maybe one day..

-Qi

There are plenty of quality cranksets from other people
below XT price point, though for my money LX is best value.
Bear in mind that the new XT price is for cranks and BB, and
over here the M761 combo is less than 20% more than the old
M752/ES71 combo. M76x "dual control" STI units are about 33%
more than M75x. As not much else has changed, the overall
cost of the groupset to OEMs has probably gone up about 10%
for the V-brake version and less than that for the disc
version. The new XT is for people who can't afford XTR,
whereas in the old days XT was for people who wanted an even
more refined Deore than LX purchasers. People already turn
to others when Shimano doesn't provide best value solutions,
just look at how many brakesets Tektro sells, or at the
other end of the scale, a quick count in the car park
suggests that Hope have more of the disc brake aftermarket
than Shimano here in the UK.

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included May contain traces of nuts Your
milage may vary

"MSeries" <[email hidden]> brightened my day with his incisive
wit when in "]news:[email hidden] he
conjectured that:

Quoted message said:

Qi said:

Did anybody else notice that Shimano has almost tripled
the price of some of their XT items? (i.e. crankset and
shifters) I personally believe this is a bad move for
Shimano, as it pushes XT parts out of the price range of
many mountain bikers. Shimano's marketing plan to create
a new standard every other year is growing old. I don't
believe it is responsible for a consumer to buy parts
from a manufacturer who will not provide replacement
parts 5 years down the line, creating the need for
constant upgrades. Passively screwing the consumer like
this is wrong. I hope more people will turn to other
component manufactures for bicycle parts. Shimano is
slowly creating the niche for other companies to steal
there business by providing quality components at lower
prices.

Maybe one day..

-Qi

Its not just Shimano though, check out the prices of
Campag Record 10 Speed rear mechs.

You can't compare. Campag are (or at least around here!),
are almost never on mass produced bikes. Shimano are. You
can find XT on conveyor belt bikes through to hand built top
of the line : they have a far wider market penetration.

Shimano are going down the Microsoft route.

Campag have a great rep for providing spares etc.

qi-<< Did anybody else notice that Shimano has almost
tripled the price of some of their XT items? >><BR><BR>

Try to find a ES-70 series BB for the XT or LX crank in
about 3 months...

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Qi said:

Did anybody else notice that Shimano has almost tripled the
price of some of their XT items? (i.e. crankset and
shifters) I personally believe this is a bad move for
Shimano, as it pushes XT parts out of the price range of
many mountain bikers.

Not charging an arm and a leg for the upper tier groups
contributed to putting Suntour out of business. Once you get
away from the real low end stuff, group level is mostly for
show anyway and plenty of people *want* to spend more for
the exclusivity. They may be seen to complain but they'll
cough up the money in the end. Perhaps where you live,
people aren't buying $50k SUVs based on $18-20k pickups but
the situation is different where I am. A hundred extra bucks
here and there on a bicycle is small potatoes.

Quoted message said:

Shimano's marketing plan to create a new standard every
other year is growing old. I don't believe it is
responsible for a consumer to buy parts from a manufacturer
who will not provide replacement parts 5 years down the
line, creating the need for constant upgrades. Passively
screwing the consumer like this is wrong.

People demand [censored] that is thrown out instead of repaired,
partly because they find comfort in buying new [censored] so
often. With time, the size of objects deemed to be
throwaway items has increased (watches -> toasters -> large
appliances -> ???).

Making items that last 5 times as long and charging 10%
more for them is simply not a good way to stay in
business nowadays.

Quoted message said:

I hope more people will turn to other component
manufactures for bicycle parts. Shimano is slowly creating
the niche for other companies to steal there business by
providing quality components at lower prices.

Shimano, like Microsoft, has the OEM market wrapped up and
that's all they really need to worry about. Frequently
changing the 'standards' and forcing the so-called
aftermarket companies to continually redesign around their
whims keeps those companies off balance and away from being
a serious OEM contender.

Still, Shimano doesn't seem to be as sharp as they used to
be - look at how long it has taken for Shimano to respond to
the Freeride(tm)/Downhill market.

Thats why we have ebay ! Replacement parts are always
available for most anything. I even placed a bid on some of
Campys highly successful SGR pedals just last week. I need a
good door stop!

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 03:04:31 -0700, "Qi" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Did anybody else notice that Shimano has almost tripled
the price of some of their XT items? (i.e. crankset and
shifters) I personally believe this is a bad move for
Shimano, as it pushes XT parts out of the price range of
many mountain bikers. Shimano's marketing plan to create
a new standard every other year is growing old. I don't
believe it is responsible for a consumer to buy parts
from a manufacturer who will not provide replacement
parts 5 years down the line, creating the need for
constant upgrades. Passively screwing the consumer like
this is wrong. I hope more people will turn to other
component manufactures for bicycle parts. Shimano is
slowly creating the niche for other companies to steal
there business by providing quality components at lower
prices.

There's plenty of competition already. And these days, the
MTB market is so competitive that product managers are quick
to spec bikes for best value. *All* the gear seems to work
really well these days -- the only difference between high
end and low end is a little weight, or if you go way down
the ladder, how well the bearings are sealed. There's plenty
of non-Shimano stuff that competes on weight, style, and
function at a much lower price -- like Tektro brakes,
Truvativ cranks, and private label stuff.

The only reason to complain is if you really want the "XT"
brand name on your bike, and you're upset because you can't
afford it anymore. It's just a brand. Some people do want
that, and are willing to pay for it. More power to 'em, and
to Shimano for being smart enough to go after their money.

Matt O.

"Qi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Did anybody else notice that Shimano has almost tripled
the price of some

of

Quoted message said:

their XT items? (i.e. crankset and shifters) I personally
believe this is

a

Quoted message said:

bad move for Shimano, as it pushes XT parts out of the
price range of many mountain bikers. Shimano's marketing
plan to create a new standard every other year is growing
old. I don't believe it is responsible for a

consumer

Quoted message said:

to buy parts from a manufacturer who will not provide
replacement parts 5 years down the line, creating the
need for constant upgrades. Passively screwing the
consumer like this is wrong. I hope more people will turn
to other component manufactures for bicycle parts.
Shimano is slowly creating the niche for other companies
to steal there business by providing quality components
at lower prices.

Not to defend Shimano, but they didn't triple the price of
existing parts, they introduced completely new technology
(STI shifting and integrated BB) at the XT level. I'm not
convinced it's worth it, but the new stuff is always
outrageously expensive.

Shimano is still making, for now, 2002-style XT
thumbshifters (or so I've heard) which, allegedly, have not
gone up in price.

Yes, they phase out older stuff that works fine, but their
argument is without pushing a tech envelope things will
never progress...even if I feel the XT thumbshifters are
perfect (which I do) and $400 cranksets are insane (which
I do) I understand their rationale. I don't like it one
bit, though, and that's why my shifters and derailleurs
are the only Shimano parts on my bike. And they'll stay
there until they self-destruct, and I'll probably replace
them with SRAM.

Chris

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Qi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Pvidna0zO8UZsMndRVn-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Did anybody else notice that Shimano has almost tripled
the price of

some

Quoted message said:

of

Quoted message said:

their XT items? (i.e. crankset and shifters) I
personally believe this

is

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

bad move for Shimano, as it pushes XT parts out of the
price range of

many

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mountain bikers. Shimano's marketing plan to create a
new standard every other year is growing old. I don't
believe it is responsible for a

consumer

Quoted message said:

to buy parts from a manufacturer who will not provide
replacement parts

5

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

years down the line, creating the need for constant
upgrades. Passively screwing the consumer like this is
wrong. I hope more people will turn

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

other component manufactures for bicycle parts. Shimano
is slowly

creating

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the niche for other companies to steal there business by
providing

quality

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

components at lower prices.

Not to defend Shimano, but they didn't triple the price of
existing parts, they introduced completely new technology
(STI shifting and integrated BB) at the XT level. I'm not
convinced it's worth it, but the new stuff is always
outrageously expensive.

There is nothing new about the integrated crank/BB. And I'd
hardly say that Dual Control is a completely new technology.

Quoted message said:

Shimano is still making, for now, 2002-style XT
thumbshifters (or so I've heard) which, allegedly, have
not gone up in price.

Do you mean Rapidfire or are Shimano really making
thumbshifters?

Dave

In article <[email hidden]>,

Chris said:

Shimano is still making, for now, 2002-style XT
thumbshifters (or so I've heard) which, allegedly, have
not gone up in price.

They're fitted to, for example, the 2004 Marin Mount Vision,
which since it's sold as ``2004 XT'' or somesuch makes me
think that the shifters aren't just old stock.

Shimano might live to regret moving all their upmarket
shifters to dual control, as presumably that makes it
harder to fit non-Shimano brakes. It does appear that a lot
of purchasers prefer non-Shimano brakes, and Shimano have
to hope that preference isn't as strong as their desire for
the latest and greatest Shimano shifters (and shifters
which operate completely differently to before, as well).
That's the sort of move that SRAM must be quite happy
about, as they'll drive a lot of punters who want Hope,
Hayes, Magura or whatever brakes, or want Rapid-fire type
shifting, straight over to SRAM. Or to LX, which isn't
exactly boffo-margin.

ian

* onefred

Quoted message said:

Do you mean Rapidfire or are Shimano really making
thumbshifters?

There will be Rapidfire+ levers in the 2005 XT group. Still
only "low normal" rear derailleurs, though. :-(

Stein

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Shimano is still making, for now, 2002-style XT
thumbshifters (or so I've heard) which, allegedly, have
not gone up in price.

Do you mean Rapidfire or are Shimano really making
thumbshifters?

He (and others) often refer to Rapid Fire as
"Thumbshifters". Must be because you use your thumb.
Shimano does not make Thumbshifters anymore. It was
difficult to sell people new shifters when the old ones
would not wear out...

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 18:30:51 GMT, Chris B.

[email protected] said:

Shimano, like Microsoft, has the OEM market wrapped up and
that's all they really need to worry about. Frequently
changing the 'standards' and forcing the so-called
aftermarket companies to continually redesign around their
whims keeps those companies off balance and away from being
a serious OEM contender.

True for shifters and derailleurs, but look at how many
bikes are sold with non-shimano cranks, brakes, chains,
cassettes, hubs, and Shimano are practically non-existent in
headsets and seatposts. Compared with MS having 90% of both
the desktop OS and office suite markets, Shimano don't look
to be trying hard enough!

Bizarrely, my mountain bikes have Shimano cranks (LX) and
brakes (XT discs), where there is most competition, and are
otherwise devoid of Shimano parts.

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included May contain traces of nuts Your
milage may vary

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 00:23:38 GMT, Kinky Cowboy <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 18:30:51 GMT, Chris B. <bikerider@-no-spam-thanks-

rogers.com said:

Shimano, like Microsoft, has the OEM market wrapped up and
that's all they really need to worry about. Frequently
changing the 'standards' and forcing the so-called
aftermarket companies to continually redesign around their
whims keeps those companies off balance and away from
being a serious OEM contender.

True for shifters and derailleurs, but look at how many
bikes are sold with non-shimano cranks, brakes, chains,
cassettes, hubs, and Shimano are practically non-existent
in headsets and seatposts. Compared with MS having 90% of
both the desktop OS and office suite markets, Shimano don't
look to be trying hard enough!

This is true and I stand partially corrected, at least with
respect to mountain bikes.

Still, while it's not uncommon to see new MTBs equipped with
say, Truvative cranks, you'll notice that they use one of
the two silly Shimano 4-bolt BCDs and are meant to be used
with Shimano front shifters and derailers.

Certainly you are right about MTB brakes; Tektro and to some
extent Avid have obviously made inroads here and Shimano was
a bit sluggish in bringing disc brakes to market. This is
why it is so smart to integrate the shifter and brake lever
- look how many people got burned when they wanted to put
V-brakes on their older MTB (possibly because of the
addition of a suspension fork) after they had plunked down
the extra dosh for XT or XTR.

I wasn't aware that mostly Shimano equipped bikes generally
came equipped with Shimano chains but I'll admit that I
wasn't aware of all these non-Shimano cassettes (who makes
them?). Still, I would assume that these cassettes are
designed with Shimano's Freehub specs in mind and that means
that you-know-who ultimately sets the standard.

You are also right about the headset and seatpost market; I
don't think Shimano have made seatposts for a while for
whatever reason (I happen to have an old steel XT 27mm post
kicking around - it's a heavy sucker!). Regarding headsets,
I seem to recall that Shimano wouldn't license the Aheadset
design and so they effectively shut themselves out of the
MTB market and some of the road bike market as well. As with
them being rather slow to respond to the Trials and Mountain
Dew crowd as I mentioned previously, I think they made a mis-
step here but they still dictate most of what goes on with
the drivetrain on most bikes and that will be a difficult
challenge for a competitor (like Sachs/SRAM and the 2:1
system and who I don't hear much about anymore) to overcome.

Quoted message said:

Bizarrely, my mountain bikes have Shimano cranks (LX) and
brakes (XT discs), where there is most competition, and are
otherwise devoid of Shimano parts.

I like the Deore V-brake I have on one bike and am
reasonably satisfied with the XT V on another (this bike has
a wide tire mounted on a narrow rim - ideal for use with the
Parallel-Push linkage). I won't touch Shimano cranks made in
the past few years because of the silly BCD nonsense, the
often changing (and IMO mediocre) spline designs and
interchangability shenanigans I have heard about like
Shimano apparently changing the required BB axle length for
the 2003 LX cranks so that the XT BB couldn't be used (or
something).

What Shimano makes that I very much like are their hubs,
though I also like their UN52/72 bottom brackets. Adjusted
properly, their hubs seem to stay smooth and last for ages -
for this I am willing to overlook some of their other
[censored]. I hope they keep it up because I intend to stay as
far away from cartridge bearing hubs and BBs as possible.

"rocketman58" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Shimano is still making, for now, 2002-style XT
thumbshifters (or so

I've

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

heard) which, allegedly, have not gone up in price.

Do you mean Rapidfire or are Shimano really making
thumbshifters?

He (and others) often refer to Rapid Fire as
"Thumbshifters". Must be because you use your thumb.
Shimano does not make Thumbshifters anymore. It was
difficult to sell people new shifters when the old ones
would not wear out...

I bet that if you went to Japan, you'd fly into Tokyo. While
there, I also bet you could find Shimano making
thumbshifters for their home market. Maybe not, after all,
Osaka is another popular destination, but it wouldn't
surprise me.

Dave