New racer!

well it all depends on how fast you can time trial and how fast everyone is going

a short race like that being only 25 miles...depending on how hilly that is i can do it in under 1 hour time trial, if the otehr racers are going slower than that, i could gamble and go from the start on my own and hope to stay away

if you don't get away and GONE if you are alone then you won't succeed. if you can get a few guys to go with you, then working together it's much easier. Through experience i've learned most Cat 4,5 races end with a mass sprint, so it's better to conserve your energy and save it for a sprint at the end. A short 25 mile race though would more than likely turn into a 10 mile warm up then a 15 mile sprint, at least with the guys i race with, which would make it impossible to get away and stay away

Thanks,

I kind of thought that to be the case. I have a very short 18.6 mile race this Saturday at the same course. It is a 4/5 race and I am planning on sitting in and waiting untill the sprint. Although after the race this past week I spoke to some guys I raced with and they said that they just were not sure whether they should chace me when I broke, but with the speed of the group (only 20-22 mph) they said that they should have and then paced out the last two laps. Is this even smart with the distance involved?

smnw10 said:

well it all depends on how fast you can time trial and how fast everyone is going

a short race like that being only 25 miles...depending on how hilly that is i can do it in under 1 hour time trial, if the otehr racers are going slower than that, i could gamble and go from the start on my own and hope to stay away

if you don't get away and GONE if you are alone then you won't succeed. if you can get a few guys to go with you, then working together it's much easier. Through experience i've learned most Cat 4,5 races end with a mass sprint, so it's better to conserve your energy and save it for a sprint at the end. A short 25 mile race though would more than likely turn into a 10 mile warm up then a 15 mile sprint, at least with the guys i race with, which would make it impossible to get away and stay away

when more distance is involved...say 50 miles, good luck breaking and staying away on your own, if you can do it you'll gain TONS of respect from people, but you better be able to average 24mph or more the entire time you're on your own

what tends to happen in 4/5 races that are of distance, 50 miles or so, is that people will attack the group trying to get away with a small group of 4 or 5. Well the rest of the pack will see this and generally chase them down every single time. So making a break will just cause the pack to pick up the pace (and shoot people out the back!)

Again just from my experiences, if you're racing 4/5 whether it's a long race or relatively short, is they don't let any small groups break away and you almost always get a field sprint at the end. It really doesn't matter where you are for the first 75% of the race as long as you are in the pack and the leaders haven't broken away. Then the last 25% of the race work your way to the front and position yourself top 5 for the sprint. I'd suggest don't be the first to break for the sprint, let someone else jump then grab their wheel and let them pull you and then in the closing meters move to the side and go all out. Your first season racing try things, find out what works for you and what doesn't. You won't know for sure if you can do something unless you try it and fail, or try and succeed. Just learn from your mistakes.
I made one a few weeks ago. 39 mile race, we were averaging 25mph on a rolling course and dummy me makes a break with 2 miles to go and all that did was start the sprint to the finish 2 miles before the finish with me in front pulling! needless to say that was a BAD choice and i couldn't hold them off. The entire pack passed me with about 100 yards to go.

frride80 said:

I just competed in my second race and felt I had a good over all perfomance, but a terrible finish. The distance was 24.8 miles and I started out at the front of the group. 2miles in, I settled in around 5-7 places back. There was an attack on the second lap and when it was obvious is was going to get reeled in I decided to counter. No one came with me! I didn't know whether to keep mashing out on my own or drift back, and I think I made a mistake by pushing hard unitl the pack caught me. I fell back to the middle of the group and just stayed there unil the end of lap 2 when I again tried to break, for no reason that to see what would happen. Again, no one elso went and I was left spinning in the wind until the group caught me yet again. At that point I knew I was going to be in toruble for if there was a mass sprint. But before I could recover for a last possible effort to get away a team decided to do the same thing. The whole group stayed with them and when it came to the last 100 yards I stood up, pushed, and nothing happened, I had nothing left. I know I need to be more patient, but if no one is going to jump durring short race like this what can I do. If you go off the front and no one goes, should you drop back?

Glad you caught the racing bug. Cycling can be a truly beautiful sport.

Remember: Training is training and racing is racing. They are NOT the same activity, not at all. And unlike running or swimming---bike racing is "not just a breathing contest!!" You need to manage your efforts----and never waste them. Better to save up for maximum and vicious attacking that will cause your competitors to burn up their energy.

The only thing that matters in racing is to cross the line first---or as high up as possible. So if that means sitting in or sitting on---so be it.

If you are working for a fellow teammate then this creedo pertains to your Team result. Team work always increases your team odds---not necessarily any specific member---assuming it is a mass start race---and not a stage race. That is another animal all together.

Insofar as individual tactics in the race you described---it all depends on 1) the other riders 2) if it was windy, 3) if there were lots of sharp corners vrs long exposed straighaways 4) a little luck too as to which tactics are best that day.

It sounded like you did a lot of unnecessary work which in no way effected the outcome of the race other than to minimize your personal result. That's is exactily what less experienced racers do. They always burn up too much energy---then do not win. Do not be afraid to turn off the power if your think an effort is unproductive. And unless you know that you can solo at 25-27 mph for 15-30 minutes, do not try it in a race. Do it in practice first so that you fully understand your limitations.

eg: The final sprint begins full tilt at 200 meters--generally, not at 100--so you must have been boxed in. And, if you were boxed in at 200 meters to go it was because you were "out-of-position" with 500 meters to go.

Lots of elementary ways to improve on this---but each action you might take is dependent on 1) your fitness level and/or 2) your pursuit speed (3-4 minutes) 3) your bike handling skills 4) and your actual maximum sprinting speed (13-15 second effort)

EG: If you cannot sprint well---why bother waiting until the very end???

How about attacking after a prime sprint. (do not contest the prime, rather accelerate gradually (hard but not maximum) after the line, thus taking with you several others (which you will need)---and form a breakaway group. The prime lap will naturally string out the field single file in that last 200 meters, then the main field will let up to regroup, thinking that the effort is over. Meanwhile you and 2-3 others are relaying at 30 mph and going up the road. By the time the field has regrouped you have a 200-300 meters gap and are coordinated, working well. If that fails---or if the group dynamics are no good---then you have the option of sitting up and waiting until the field comes up. (btw: NEVER voluteer to go backwards, wait for the others---as they just may continue on without you) That happened to me once---and those guys went 1,2,3. Stupid me. They effectively bluffed me into giving up on that break.

If it ends with a field sprint---as it often does. Then setting up for the sprint is critical. (you must learn how to "play the piano", so-to-speak) If you can---you must fight for the 2nd-3rd or 4th wheel at 400-500 meters to go, then hold on to your position---jumping onto a better wheel only if the speed drops down and/or a faster wheel moves forward. Do not stay on a wheel to long if it begins to die on you. You must not become trapped/swarmed because you are on a bad wheel. Judgment and skills are the key.

If there is a sharp corner at 200-300 meters to go, do not be afraid to sprint full tilt into it so as to gap off your followers by 3-6 bike lengths----now you might just solo in and hold off the faster riders who wanted the good lead out. Dive to the inside and push the few lead riders wide and into the outside gutter---CAUTION: that is an advanced move---and will get you yelled at for sure---but in Cat 1/2 no DQ because you can counter argue with: I only did it because you guys were riding too slow, and I have a right to pass slower riders who are blocking.

That's called taking the initiative and being very aggressive. (please do not crash---else you will have hell to pay if you survive the pile up)

I can imagine lots of scenarios to win. It all depends on the situation---and what your abilities are.

Keep it up and try new things. Some will fail, some will succeed. The more you race the smarter you become, so race as often as possible. (except in the off-season of course where general conditioning is needed)

Remember, Bike racing is not just a breathing contest!!

This is all very helpful, thanks.

I am curious to know what exactly pursuit speed is? I understand that sitting in/on is the perfered tactic and after evaluating my perfomance I realize I am the sterotypical newbie. I was caught up in the rush of racing and I had no real idea what was the right and wrong move. The good thing is that I know know what it feels like to be stranded.

Two more questions: As a Cat 5 I am trying, via trial and error, to figuire out what a efficient cadence is for 1) spinning in the pack; 2) pulling up front.

Second, I have riden in two sprinting clinics and I am still not sure what the proper tactic is. One worked on spinning up to 130 rpm over short distances the other was a walkthroug of the final meters of the course my club races on . We were told that we should spin at 100+ then accellerate to the wheel in front, and excellerate past in a gear 2 higher than the spin? This does not seem consistant enought. Any advice would help, thanks.

Flyer said:

Glad you caught the racing bug. Cycling can be a truly beautiful sport.

Remember: Training is training and racing is racing. They are NOT the same activity, not at all. And unlike running or swimming---bike racing is "not just a breathing contest!!" You need to manage your efforts----and never waste them. Better to save up for maximum and vicious attacking that will cause your competitors to burn up their energy.

The only thing that matters in racing is to cross the line first---or as high up as possible. So if that means sitting in or sitting on---so be it.

If you are working for a fellow teammate then this creedo pertains to your Team result. Team work always increases your team odds---not necessarily any specific member---assuming it is a mass start race---and not a stage race. That is another animal all together.

Insofar as individual tactics in the race you described---it all depends on 1) the other riders 2) if it was windy, 3) if there were lots of sharp corners vrs long exposed straighaways 4) a little luck too as to which tactics are best that day.

It sounded like you did a lot of unnecessary work which in no way effected the outcome of the race other than to minimize your personal result. That's is exactily what less experienced racers do. They always burn up too much energy---then do not win. Do not be afraid to turn off the power if your think an effort is unproductive. And unless you know that you can solo at 25-27 mph for 15-30 minutes, do not try it in a race. Do it in practice first so that you fully understand your limitations.

eg: The final sprint begins full tilt at 200 meters--generally, not at 100--so you must have been boxed in. And, if you were boxed in at 200 meters to go it was because you were "out-of-position" with 500 meters to go.

Lots of elementary ways to improve on this---but each action you might take is dependent on 1) your fitness level and/or 2) your pursuit speed (3-4 minutes) 3) your bike handling skills 4) and your actual maximum sprinting speed (13-15 second effort)

EG: If you cannot sprint well---why bother waiting until the very end???

How about attacking after a prime sprint. (do not contest the prime, rather accelerate gradually (hard but not maximum) after the line, thus taking with you several others (which you will need)---and form a breakaway group. The prime lap will naturally string out the field single file in that last 200 meters, then the main field will let up to regroup, thinking that the effort is over. Meanwhile you and 2-3 others are relaying at 30 mph and going up the road. By the time the field has regrouped you have a 200-300 meters gap and are coordinated, working well. If that fails---or if the group dynamics are no good---then you have the option of sitting up and waiting until the field comes up. (btw: NEVER voluteer to go backwards, wait for the others---as they just may continue on without you) That happened to me once---and those guys went 1,2,3. Stupid me. They effectively bluffed me into giving up on that break.

If it ends with a field sprint---as it often does. Then setting up for the sprint is critical. (you must learn how to "play the piano", so-to-speak) If you can---you must fight for the 2nd-3rd or 4th wheel at 400-500 meters to go, then hold on to your position---jumping onto a better wheel only if the speed drops down and/or a faster wheel moves forward. Do not stay on a wheel to long if it begins to die on you. You must not become trapped/swarmed because you are on a bad wheel. Judgment and skills are the key.

If there is a sharp corner at 200-300 meters to go, do not be afraid to sprint full tilt into it so as to gap off your followers by 3-6 bike lengths----now you might just solo in and hold off the faster riders who wanted the good lead out. Dive to the inside and push the few lead riders wide and into the outside gutter---CAUTION: that is an advanced move---and will get you yelled at for sure---but in Cat 1/2 no DQ because you can counter argue with: I only did it because you guys were riding too slow, and I have a right to pass slower riders who are blocking.

That's called taking the initiative and being very aggressive. (please do not crash---else you will have hell to pay if you survive the pile up)

I can imagine lots of scenarios to win. It all depends on the situation---and what your abilities are.

Keep it up and try new things. Some will fail, some will succeed. The more you race the smarter you become, so race as often as possible. (except in the off-season of course where general conditioning is needed)

Remember, Bike racing is not just a breathing contest!!

i guess it's all about what is most comfortable for you...i don't know anyone however that sits and spins at 100+rpm in a pack

When in the pack taking it easy i generally run around 85-90 rpm, if i'm pulling it's generally around 95 rpm, and going into a sprint i'll work up to 95-100 rpm before the sprint starts, then shift up 2 gears and go all out

i find if you sit in a pack at 100+rpm when it's unnecessary then you simply tire yourself out whipping your legs around

frride80 said:

This is all very helpful, thanks.

I am curious to know what exactly pursuit speed is? I understand that sitting in/on is the perfered tactic and after evaluating my perfomance I realize I am the sterotypical newbie. I was caught up in the rush of racing and I had no real idea what was the right and wrong move. The good thing is that I know know what it feels like to be stranded.

Two more questions: As a Cat 5 I am trying, via trial and error, to figuire out what a efficient cadence is for 1) spinning in the pack; 2) pulling up front.

Second, I have riden in two sprinting clinics and I am still not sure what the proper tactic is. One worked on spinning up to 130 rpm over short distances the other was a walkthroug of the final meters of the course my club races on . We were told that we should spin at 100+ then accellerate to the wheel in front, and excellerate past in a gear 2 higher than the spin? This does not seem consistant enought. Any advice would help, thanks.

In my experience---the single quickest way to gain the skills, breathing, and higher cadences needed for cat-like reactions---is the Velodrome.

Don't know if you have one in your area. It is well worth doing some Saturday training sessions. Just bring your pedals & road bike---you can rent a track bike for $4 or so.

Roadies with track skills are tough to beat.

A the track all manner of drills will be taught---and later during the track season, many of those drills become racing events. The idea is to drill into the racer skills and behaviors that will become instintive and proven.

You will learn distance and the MAXIMUM effort you can put out for each distance. 200 meters, 500 meters, 1,000 meters, 3,000 meters etc...

A Pursuit is a timed event where the rider begins in "held position at zero speed". He then accelerates up to maximum sustainable speed in the most effective manner for that event. Individual pursuits can be 500, 1,000, 3,000 or 4,000 meters and can run, 35 seconds to 5 minutes.

So if you can practice these distances, with lots of recovery/rest in between, you can judge your effort so that you do not die in the last 400 meters.

Obviously, a 3 minute effort will be much more intensive than a time trialing effort.

If you can build confidence in 1,000 -5,000 meter efforts, you then have another tactic in your portfolio of tricks. The infamous "flyer" taking the other racers by surprise and forcing then to chase you when the fast riders do not want to. This can cause great confusion in the bunch---all accruing to the benefit of the Flyer. (This is especially effective near the top of a steep hill or into a tight set of sharp single-file corners---wet and raining conditions help too.

You won't need to sprint if you come to the line alone.

At the track----fixed gear bikes are use and cadences vary from 90-150 rpm.
This means that NO SHIFTING ever occurs---and it is not necessary either.

Shifting can be introduced later, not now, if necessary---after one masters spinning.

In a race---once it commences, you recover at 100-110 rpms, then accelerate at 120-150 rpms depending on your gearing. 86, 88, 90, 92, 94+ inch rollouts for mass group racing. The speed is constantly changing--never constant--unless you are OTF (off-the front) or OTB (off-the-back)

A 90 inch gear seems to be the most common if the road boys do not dominate the event. Generally, road sprinter cannot spin as high so they tend to run a higher gear, 92+++.

The lower the gear, the faster off the mark you are, and your legs will never get fatigued either. However, if you can't breath or cannot aerobically recover from chasing after the big gear people---you will blow!!!

If you can hang in there, you can attack as soon as the pace slows---and the big gear boys cannot react quickly and/or will eventually get leg fatigue. Then you can ride away from them later in the race. ie:: Attack, counter-attack, attack, counter-attack, solo-away or breakaway stategy.

Aerobic fitness, pedal efficiency, skill, judgement, confidence and luck are all elements.

"playing the piano" is both a skill and a term that racers use to describe staying near the front without buring up energy---by never staying on the front for very long.

btw: It is OK to put your nose into the wind periodically---and you will have to if you intend to stay near the front---since many others want to do so also---so you will be constantly rotating and moving around (orbiting)--and that is the requirement for staying near the front. Nobody can just camp there without some piano playing or energy effort output.

The better your pedal speed, and bike handling skills are, the easy playing the piano becomes. Oh yeah, practice, pratice, practice in groups of 5-10 people---all of whom you have confidence in is best.

So--at first you must ride with superior riders if you wish to fast track your skills. Avoid weekend warriors at all costs.

You want to improve and get faster (speed and finess)---not crash.

Seek out your local track (velodrome).

Good luck.

Flyer,

Thank you for posting all the good "hints". I have been racing for the past year and asked a few related questions on the forum with limited response.

Recently I was shown a copy of Arnie Baker's book, "Smart Cycling" and he has a good chapter on tactics.

There is nothing like losing a race to make you think why it happened. However your advice would have significantly reduced the time to acquire some of this knowledge.

Cheers,
davef

[quote="davef"]Flyer,

Thank you for posting all the good "hints". I have been racing for the past year and asked a few related questions on the forum with limited response.

Recently I was shown a copy of Arnie Baker's book, "Smart Cycling" and he has a good chapter on tactics.



Dave:

I have ridden with Arnie Baker---and he is a superb rider and tremendous racer with lots of District and National titles to prove it. He can time trial, climb and out-think most people. While I believe he packs a good sprint--he prefers to eliminate most of his competitors well before the final 200 meters.

That book ought to be an excellent read. Arnie is a San Diego treasure.




There is nothing like losing a race to make you think why it happened. However your advice would have significantly reduced the time to acquire some of this knowledge.




Perhaps. Knowing is helpful---but trial and error will still be needed to prove these ideas to yourself. Watch the Cat 1 & 2 and the Masters 1,2,3s race. In fact, the Masters may be the most clever and sneaky of all----with lots of trash talking too. Observe them---watch how they "set-the-table" then later swoop in and "eat-all-the-food". The winners let the others do all the dirty work, set up the early break, then bridge up, later in the race. Fresher, stronger, and after resting for a time, counter attacking and rolling up another victory leaving the breakaway group to demoralized and confused. What just happened?

Mass start cycling is a game of chess using lungs instead of pieces.


btw: "a flyer" is often referred to as "throwing down"


A final illustration: Take two identical racers (same height weight & exact fitness/power/endurance) Make them race two events, 1) a 30 minute time trial and 2) a 90 kilometer hilly, windy and rolling road race.

In the time trial, the racer who averages the highest wattage output will win.

In the road race or criterium (mass group), the racer who averages the LOWEST wattage output will win---or at least have the greatest chance.

Counter-intuitive but interesting, isn't it?


Be good.

Flyer