New p-38 questions

In article <[email hidden]>, roydale63 @hotmail.com says...

Quoted message said:

...i have a question for thoese in the know. I am sore from my first ride with the p38 only 6
miles nad i seemed to get tired faster than on my tour easy. I have a base of about 15 miles a day
on the tour easy how long will it take to adapt to the p-38? Thanks to the staff at the Silver
comet depot great people to do business with.

My first 'bent was a LWB RANS Stratus, My second is a P-38 and I also=20 drive a Bacchetta Giro.=20

I think I can relate to the extra work the P-38 requires to maintain=20 cruising speed. I found that
while the LWB was slow at working up to a=20 cruising speed, it would hold that speed on the flats
with little=20 additional effort. If I wanted the P-38 to maintain a cruising speed, I=20 found I
had to work more to keep the P-38 there. OTOH, the P-38 is much=20 faster than the LWB and could
easily out climb a LWB.=20

If I recall, it took me about 2000 miles to really feel comfortable=20 with the P-38. With about
8000 miles on the P-38, It is my bike of=20 choice for fast weekend rides with the guys. And since
mine is a=20 Voyager, It has been to Europe twice now.=20

My suggestion to you is to drop the bike into a lower gear and spin to=20 achieve the same speed.
Also, your legs are going to have to get used=20 to being higher than your butt and the closed
seating position puts the=20 body into a geometry similar to a tucked DF rider only rotated 90=B0.

--=20 Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

Roy,
If you are in Atlanta check out these sites
pub68.ezboard.combteammaniacsilvercometforumremain9914Open ↗
and
groups.yahoo.comAtlantaRecumbentCyclesOpen ↗

They are currently in winter dormant stage but when it starts warming up you will find alot of rides
posted both on and off of the Silver Comet. Join in and I hope to meet you one day.

Cletus probably answered your question better than I can but me not being shy about giving my
opinion here goes. I have always ridden SWB bikes and currently ride a Strada. The one time that I
did ride a Tour Easy for 40 miles or so, my legs were sore. When I changed from a Vrex to the
Strada, my butt (glutes) was sore. So my point is that I believe that going from a low BB to a high
BB you are now using different muscles than you were with the TE. Also if your TE had a fairing, it
slipped through the air easier than an unfaired P38.

Tom

"roy dale" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Well I pulled the trigger and bought a p-38. I road all the bachett line and just did not feel
right with thoese swivel handle bars. Almost bought it on the giro wide open on the silvercomet
trail. The bachett is a fine machine though. i have a question for thoese in the know. I am sore
from my first ride with the p38 only 6 miles nad i seemed to get tired faster than on my tour
easy. I have a base of about 15 miles a day on the tour easy how long will it take to adapt to the
p-38? Thanks to the staff at the Silver comet depot great people to do business with.

Funny you should mention the "flip-it" bars on the Bacchetta, I removed the" flip-it" on my Corsa
and now have an Aero style fixed stem. When I had my P-38 I added a flip-it because getting on and
off the bike can be difficult with the closed seat to handlebar position. I felt it was the best
mod. I made on the P-38. As far as the soreness,as already said ,it will take awhile for the higher
BB muscles to develope,but when they do you will love the speed of the P-38. Ben fox

"roy dale" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Well I pulled the trigger and bought a p-38. I road all the bachett line and just did not feel
right with thoese swivel handle bars. Almost bought it on the giro wide open on the silvercomet
trail. The bachett is a fine machine though. i have a question for thoese in the know. I am sore
from my first ride with the p38 only 6 miles nad i seemed to get tired faster than on my tour
easy. I have a base of about 15 miles a day on the tour easy how long will it take to adapt to the
p-38? Thanks to the staff at the Silver comet depot great people to do business with.

How did you put the flip it on a p-38? When i rode the giro the handle bars were everwhere if that
had some quick release on them so they could be locked it might have been intresting . I am having a
hard time getting adjusted to the new position. I am going to give it some time before i make any
rash decisions so anyone else have any advice?

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

How did you put the flip it on a p-38? When i rode the giro the handle bars were everwhere if that
had some quick release on them so they could be locked it might have been intresting . I am having
a hard time getting adjusted to the new position. I am going to give it some time before i make
any rash decisions so anyone else have any advice?

LCD makes a Lock Down stem similar to the RANS Flip-it or the Glideflex on the Bacchetta

FWIW, I put a Flip-it on my RANS Stratus.

clee.orgdefault.cfmOpen ↗

Perhaps the Glideflex on the Giro that you tested was too loose. MY Giro stem does not move unless I
want it to.
--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

Cletus Lee <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

How did you put the flip it on a p-38? When i rode the giro the handle bars were everwhere if
that had some quick release on them so they could be locked it might have been intresting . I am
having a hard time getting adjusted to the new position. I am going to give it some time before
i make any rash decisions so anyone else have any advice?

LCD makes a Lock Down stem similar to the RANS Flip-it or the Glideflex on the Bacchetta

Cletus is right that LCD does make a lock down stem. Last weekend I rode a Phantom with such a stem.
It is certainly a nice improvement (my opinion) over the standard stationary Lightning stem but I
think its design is less efficient than RANS. If feels heavier. More than that, everytime you unlock
you then lose your setting and need to readjust. With the RANS stem the stem pulls back into the
preset position whenever you pull the handlebar back towards you.

Mike S. St. Louis, Mo.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Cletus Lee <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

How did you put the flip it on a p-38? When i rode the giro the handle bars were everwhere if
that had some quick release on them so they could be locked it might have been intresting . I
am having a hard time getting adjusted to the new position. I am going to give it some time
before i make any rash decisions so anyone else have any advice?

LCD makes a Lock Down stem similar to the RANS Flip-it or the Glideflex on the Bacchetta

Cletus is right that LCD does make a lock down stem. Last weekend I rode a Phantom with such a
stem. It is certainly a nice improvement (my opinion) over the standard stationary Lightning stem
but I think its design is less efficient than RANS. If feels heavier. More than that, everytime
you unlock you then lose your setting and need to readjust. With the RANS stem the stem pulls back
into the preset position whenever you pull the handlebar back towards you.

I have had experience with all three movable stems. I don't think the LCD stem is any heavier than
the RANS or Glideflex. Maybe less since it is machined from aluminum. Being made from aluminum
stock, is a shortcoming. Since over time the teeth that make the sure locking possible, tend to
wear so that now after 8000 miles, I see some stem movement due in part to the play in the lock
down stem.

I have no problems re-adjusting the stem to its previous position. Every time I store my bike and
every time I transport the bike, I fold down the stem. It is quite easy to find the old position and
re-lock. Except for the wear on the aluminum teeth, I think I prefer the LCD stem. Since I can fold
the stem forward or backward, it will lie down on the seat out of the way. The RANS Flip-it and the
Glideflex used on the Bacchetta can only fold forward and I have no need for a forward folding stem
since I usually enter and exit the bike with the stem in its full upright position.

--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

"roy dale" skrev...

Quoted message said:

I am sore from my first ride with the p38 only 6 miles nad i seemed to get tired faster than on my
tour easy. I have a base of about 15 miles a day on the tour easy how long will it take to adapt
to the p-38? Thanks to the staff at the Silver comet depot great people to do business with.

Maybe you have the same problem as me then. I have a Velokraft 2 lowracer and a TE-clone. The TE is
for winteruse and such. I find that when I switch between the two after a long time on one of them I
need to recondition my legmuscles. I finally got a 50 km ride in on the Velokraft as the weather
decided to cooperate with sunny skies, tolerable temperatures and dry roads. Its been several months
since I took it on a longer ride with hills and fast flat stretches. Anyway at the end of this ride
my legs totally cramped up on me as I tried to sprint away from an intersection. (Trying to impress
women of course. ;-) ) I ride 100-170 km trips with no problems in the summertime but these 50
klicks really did me in. Problem is I seem to use different muscles due to the different
seatingpositions. So I guess I ought to get a laidback trike for winteruse. I also experience
tired/sore muscles from the change in position if its been months since I rode the other bike. Only
on the first ride tho.

Mikael

I am having trouble getting back up to speed. i know that i have only taken 5 rides so far in the 5
to 10 mile range but it sure seems harder. I am still in the adjustment phase for the seat and the
crank boom. I ordered some eggbeaters pedals because it seems harder to keep my feet on the pedals.
Seems like I use up alot of energy just trying to keep my feet up there. Do you have any other
suggestions that might help in the transition?

Roy,
If you go to the terracycle website,you'll see he has Glide-flex to fit the
P-38.It is a simple matter of clamping one side onto the steerer tube coming
up from the fork and the other side has a riser that fits the p-38 handle
bar stem.
As some one else said ,you tighten down the pivot screw so the bars are good
and snug and they won't flop around.
The Lightning pivot IMO is [censored]. I bought a used Stealth with the pivot on
it and the teeth were stripped .I talked to Tim at Lightning and he said the
whole thing would have to be replaced.
The way it's made it's almost impossible to get it tight enough and if it
slips the teeth get chewed up and it's junk.
Ben Fox
"roy dale" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How did you put the flip it on a p-38? When i rode the giro the handle bars were everwhere if that
had some quick release on them so they could be locked it might have been intresting . I am having
a hard time getting adjusted to the new position. I am going to give it some time before i make
any rash decisions so anyone else have any advice?

In article <[email hidden]>, roydale63 @hotmail.com says...

Quoted message said:

I am having trouble getting back up to speed. i know that i have only taken 5 rides so far in the
5 to 10 mile range but it sure seems harder. I am still in the adjustment phase for the seat and
the crank boom. I ordered some eggbeaters pedals because it seems harder to keep my feet on the
pedals. Seems like I use up alot of energy just trying to keep my feet up there. Do you have any
other suggestions that might help in the transition?

It is tiresome trying to keep your feet on a horizontal platform. Clipless pedals are essential for
recumbents. I've been using EggBeaters for two years now. I think they are more versatile and
adaptable than the SPDs I used before. Great choice.

I don't know what you considered a typical distance before the recumbent, but for me, I was doing
about 15 miles 3-5 days a week with 30 miles or longer on weekends. Not long after I got my first
recumbent (a LWB), a 20 mile ride was not long enough for me. On the LWB, I was soon averaging about
1 mph faster than my DF or around 15mph. About a year after the LWB, I got my P-38. By then, I was
averaging nearly 2mph better than my DF days on the LWB, but the LWB did have a fairing. I was
surprised and a little disappointed that the 27 lb. P-38 was averaging only a little better that my
first days on the LWB. I was slower than the LWB by 1 to 1.5 mph average.

I did not see a major improvement on the P-38 until about a year and a half later. Looking back, I
realize that it could have been sooner. The magic pill? For me it was not concentrating on speed but
on technique. I started focusing on pedaling circles and spinning. I got my cadence up from 70-80 to
88-100 and using a lower gear to put my self in the same 18-22 mph range. I found that I could
maintain that lower gear/ fast speed better than I could the bigger gear and slower cadence.

Once I found the secret of the P-38, I was ready to give up the LWB and move forward with the SWB.
(I now have two). In July of 2002, I completed a century averaging 22 mph for the first 50 miles and
17.5 over all. Last July, I did the Metric century averaging 20 mph with a non-stop time of just
over 3 hours.

I've come a long way on my P-38 in three years. But you probably have a way to go too before you see
some of its potential. First, you have some 'bent muscle groups to develop. It doesn't happen
immediately, but gradually over the first 1000 miles. With luck, it won't take you a year and a half
like me. It is up to you to determine how long it will take you to get into your first 1000 miles. I
would suggest working up to about 100 miles a week. Don't worry about speed at first, just think
about form and fit.

Keep your seat laces tight so that you don't lose any energy to the seat. Practice spinning in a
lower gear. Move the Crank/boom out as far as you can any when it becomes an uncomfortable reach tot
he pedals, move it back about 10mm. Then when you are comfortable that it is at the correct
distance, make a notch where the boom enters the main tube to register the point.

--
Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

Well I got the egg beaters on tonight and my computer set up and took some test riding out in front
of my house . The pedals work great and they don't seem to make me work as hard but it was only a
short test. Tommorrow will tell the story when I get out for my first long ride. I am still
adjusting the seat now about a 1/4 inch at a time and i think i have it about dialed in. I am
trying to see how fast i can go but i will take your advice and just spin for a couple of rides and
then try to start getting faster . you Have been a big help with your suggestion and i hope we keep
in touch .

Thanks Roy Dale p-38----Tour easy ss Cletus D. Lee <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, roydale63 @hotmail.com says...

Quoted message said:

I am having trouble getting back up to speed. i know that i have only taken 5 rides so far in
the 5 to 10 mile range but it sure seems harder. I am still in the adjustment phase for the seat
and the crank boom. I ordered some eggbeaters pedals because it seems harder to keep my feet on
the pedals. Seems like I use up alot of energy just trying to keep my feet up there. Do you have
any other suggestions that might help in the transition?

It is tiresome trying to keep your feet on a horizontal platform. Clipless pedals are essential
for recumbents. I've been using EggBeaters for two years now. I think they are more versatile and
adaptable than the SPDs I used before. Great choice.

I don't know what you considered a typical distance before the recumbent, but for me, I was doing
about 15 miles 3-5 days a week with 30 miles or longer on weekends. Not long after I got my first
recumbent (a LWB), a 20 mile ride was not long enough for me. On the LWB, I was soon averaging
about 1 mph faster than my DF or around 15mph. About a year after the LWB, I got my P-38. By then,
I was averaging nearly 2mph better than my DF days on the LWB, but the LWB did have a fairing. I
was surprised and a little disappointed that the 27 lb. P-38 was averaging only a little better
that my first days on the LWB. I was slower than the LWB by 1 to 1.5 mph average.

I did not see a major improvement on the P-38 until about a year and a half later. Looking back, I
realize that it could have been sooner. The magic pill? For me it was not concentrating on speed
but on technique. I started focusing on pedaling circles and spinning. I got my cadence up from
70-80 to 88-100 and using a lower gear to put my self in the same 18-22 mph range. I found that I
could maintain that lower gear/ fast speed better than I could the bigger gear and slower cadence.

Once I found the secret of the P-38, I was ready to give up the LWB and move forward with the SWB.
(I now have two). In July of 2002, I completed a century averaging 22 mph for the first 50 miles
and 17.5 over all. Last July, I did the Metric century averaging 20 mph with a non-stop time of
just over 3 hours.

I've come a long way on my P-38 in three years. But you probably have a way to go too before you
see some of its potential. First, you have some 'bent muscle groups to develop. It doesn't happen
immediately, but gradually over the first 1000 miles. With luck, it won't take you a year and a
half like me. It is up to you to determine how long it will take you to get into your first 1000
miles. I would suggest working up to about 100 miles a week. Don't worry about speed at first,
just think about form and fit.

Keep your seat laces tight so that you don't lose any energy to the seat. Practice spinning in a
lower gear. Move the Crank/boom out as far as you can any when it becomes an uncomfortable reach
tot he pedals, move it back about 10mm. Then when you are comfortable that it is at the correct
distance, make a notch where the boom enters the main tube to register the point.

I have no experience with a P-38 but did do a century ride 2 1/2 weeks after getting my first
recumbent, a SWB Barcroft Dakota. It was so comfortable compared with my DF that I smiled throughout
the whole thing even thought I did suffer some overuse muscle pain. I made around 5 changes in seat
angle and distance during that ride in an attempt to dial the bike in. There was a price to pay. I
could not walk down stairs without holding the railing for two or three days after the ride. My
average speed was perhaps 1 mph slower than the DF, but I finished the ride about as fast due to
fewer and shorter rest stops. It was not hilly or I may have been in trouble. That said--your
experience has nothing to do with mine or anyone else's. We are all individuals.

I do have some suggestions for you. Sometimes subtle changes in your position can make a big
difference in comfort. I suggest you put your P-38 on a trainer and start making subtle changes. You
may have to make some changes in your cleats, seat angle, seat distance, steering, etc. to get it
comfortable. Expect that over time you will make additional changes. In my case I preferred a more
laid back position as time went on and also increased my leg extension some. I stopped making
changes after around 1500 miles. I wouldn't worry about how you felt after 6 mi.--it could just be a
bad day. How long it takes you to get used to your new machine depends upon you, your conditioning,
and your tolerance for change. Only time will tell.

"roy dale" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Well I pulled the trigger and bought a p-38. I road all the bachett line and just did not feel
right with thoese swivel handle bars. Almost bought it on the giro wide open on the silvercomet
trail. The bachett is a fine machine though. i have a question for thoese in the know. I am sore
from my first ride with the p38 only 6 miles nad i seemed to get tired faster than on my tour
easy. I have a base of about 15 miles a day on the tour easy how long will it take to adapt to the
p-38? Thanks to the staff at the Silver comet depot great people to do business with.

"Ben Fox" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

The Lightning pivot IMO is [censored]. I bought a used Stealth with the pivot on it and the teeth were
stripped .I talked to Tim at Lightning and he said the whole thing would have to be replaced. The
way it's made it's almost impossible to get it tight enough and if it slips the teeth get chewed
up and it's junk.

I have used the Lightning lock down stem for 4500 miles/18 months on a 2002 Phantom II. It works
well for what is designed to do. It is not intended to be a "flip it" stem that is released and
locked down every time the rider stands up/sits down or gets off/on the bike. "The way it's made
is so solid I trust my life to its construction every week going down canyon roads at 40+ mph. It
must havebeen misused or abused by the previous owner. I fold the bars down once or twice a week
for transport. It works great for folding for transporting the bike and more importantly (to me,
anyway) for tailoring the position of the handlebars/stem for optimal comfort and performance for
riding the bike. I have my handlebars/stem pulled back 20 degrees from the steerer (head) tube
angle, locked down solid, and my P-38 seat leaned all the back. The lock down stem also allows the
rider to do what most recumbent riders have learned not to do: pull on the bars. IMHO it is well
designed and well made. If anything it may be overbuilt for the application. Definitely not
"[censored]." and definitely not the setup you wanted. Rob "If it feels this right being wrong, I don't
want to be right"

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"Ben Fox" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

The Lightning pivot IMO is [censored]...

I have used the Lightning lock down stem for 4500 miles/18 months on a 2002 Phantom II. It works
well for what is designed to do. It is not intended to be a "flip it" stem that is released and
locked down every time the rider stands up/sits down or gets off/on the bike.

How's yours going to work after 8000 miles? Mine still functions, but the teeth are chewed on each
end of travel. I could not secure the stem in a low angle if I wanted to. The sleeve that surrounds
the Lock bolt has deteriorated and I fear the next time I take it apart, it will not go back
together to lock the stem.

I don't agree with Ben that the lock Down Stem is a POS. I do think that like most of Lightning's
special purpose parts, they could be better constructed and more durable,

I do not think that repeated use causes failure. My P-38 Lockdown is only used to store the bike and
to transport it. I have been very careful since the first time when I recognized the teeth were soft
aluminum. I think most of my wear has come from my stressing the stem as I ride and road vibration.

Quoted message said:

"The way it's made is so solid I trust my life to its construction every week going down canyon
roads at 40+ mph. It must havebeen misused or abused by the previous owner. I fold the bars down
once or twice a week for transport. It works great for folding for transporting the bike and more
importantly (to me, anyway) for tailoring the position of the handlebars/stem for optimal comfort
and performance for riding the bike. I have my handlebars/stem pulled back 20 degrees from the
steerer (head) tube angle, locked down solid, and my P-38 seat leaned all the back. The lock down
stem also allows the rider to do what most recumbent riders have learned not to do: pull on the
bars. IMHO it is well designed and well made. If anything it may be overbuilt for the application.
Definitely not "[censored]." and definitely not the setup you wanted. Rob "If it feels this right being
wrong, I don't want to be right"

--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

I took my 6th or 7th ride last night. I could really feel a difference from the other rides I went 3
to 4mph faster and i did not get tired nearly as fast. Mybe just a good day or I am getting use to
the new position. As far as a flip it goes , I don't know if i want one or not . Seems it would be
eaiser to get on and off the bike that way but I don't know about relibality .

[email hidden] (roy dale) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I took my 6th or 7th ride last night. I could really feel a difference from the other rides I went
3 to 4mph faster and i did not get tired nearly as fast. Mybe just a good day or I am getting use
to the new position. As far as a flip it goes , I don't know if i want one or not . Seems it would
be eaiser to get on and off the bike that way but I don't know about relibality .

A tilting steering column isn't really necessary on the P-38 because the handlebar riser is
relatively far away from the rider. This gives you lots of room to get on and off.

If you do decide to "tilt" it, Terracycle has all the parts you need:
terracycle.comglideflex.htmOpen ↗ I used a prototype GlideFlex on my P-38 when I was
playing around with handlebar setups. It worked great no matter what braindead configuration I
tried it with.

Jeff