New/Old Tire Size Question

Bob said:

I'm trying to figure out new/old tire sizes and what to do
for my "classic" bike from the 1970's.

I have "27" tubular tires (sew ups) from the 70's. All the
tubulars I see for sale (Ebay, haven't found them
elsewhere) are marked "700c". If I understand correctly,
these are slightly smaller than the old 27" standard. Will
they stretch on to my rims? Are there suppliers who still
sell the old sizes?

I really don't want to re-lace these wheels since it is a
bit of a classic.

No need, all full-sized tubulars are interchangeable.
There's actually no such thing as a "27 inch" tubular,
that's just a mistaken way of referring to standard sized
tubulars. There are 26" tubulars, and smaller sizes, but
they're VERY rare.

For your application, just go to a shop that sells them and
ask for a "tubular" without mentioning any numbers, and
you'll get something appropriate.

Sheldon "I Don't Deal In Tubulars Anymore" Brown Bristol,
U.K. +--------------------------------------------------------
---------+
| I'll be traveling in France and England throughout the
| month | of June. I hope to remain online, but don't know
| what sort | of 'Net access I'll be able to get... |
+-----------------------------------------------------------
------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-
9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find
parts shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗
sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

Sheldon Brown said:

Bob said:

I'm trying to figure out new/old tire sizes and what to
do for my "classic" bike from the 1970's.

I have "27" tubular tires (sew ups) from the 70's. All
the tubulars I see for sale (Ebay, haven't found them
elsewhere) are marked "700c". If I understand correctly,
these are slightly smaller than the old 27" standard.
Will they stretch on to my rims? Are there suppliers who
still sell the old sizes?

I really don't want to re-lace these wheels since it is a
bit of a classic.

No need, all full-sized tubulars are interchangeable.
There's actually no such thing as a "27 inch" tubular,
that's just a mistaken way of referring to standard sized
tubulars. There are 26" tubulars, and smaller sizes, but
they're VERY rare.

For your application, just go to a shop that sells them and
ask for a "tubular" without mentioning any numbers, and
you'll get something appropriate.

Sheldon "I Don't Deal In Tubulars Anymore" Brown
Bristol, U.K.

CambriaBike shows the Conti sew-ups as being 27", and
the Vittorio sew-ups as 700, but they fit the same rims;
go figure.

If it was me, I'd re-lace to clincher rims anyway, just to
save trouble, time and money in the long run. Sew-ups are a
beast to work with by comparison to clinchers, in my
opinion, as well as more expensive and harder to find. It's
all a matter of point of view, though.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Sheldon Brown

There are 26" tubulars, and smaller sizes, but
they're VERY rare.

For your application, just go to a shop that sells them and
ask for a "tubular" without mentioning any numbers, and
you'll get something appropriate.

Just as long as it's not a triathlon shop. 650C tubbies aren't that uncommon in the tri-world. :-)

Gonzo Bob said:

Sheldon Brown said:

There are 26" tubulars, and smaller sizes, but they're
VERY rare. For your application, just go to a shop that
sells them and ask for a "tubular" without mentioning
any numbers, and you'll get something appropriate.

Just as long as it's not a triathlon shop. 650C tubbies
aren't that uncommon in the tri-world. :-)

Dear G. Bob,

Aha!

Recently, there was a long thread about whether 80% of the
European peletons were using tubulars, but no one seemed to
have any solid figures and the furious arguments died down.

Another poster just asked what the point is of using
tubulars, so I pointed out that thread to him.

Now you've popped up with this fascinating tidbit that tiny
tubulars may be rife in triathlons .

I'm just insatiably curious, not trying to argue for or
against tubulars, and wondering how rare or common they are
in worlds unknown to me--can you hazard any guess about how
many riders are using 650c tubulars in triathlons? Ten
percent? Fifty? Ninety?

Eagerly,

Carl Fogel

Bob said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm trying to figure out new/old tire sizes and what to
do for=20 my "classic" bike from the 1970's.

I have "27" tubular tires (sew ups) from the 70's. All
the tubulars I =

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

see for sale (Ebay, haven't found them elsewhere) are
marked "700c".=20 If I understand correctly, these are
slightly smaller than the old 27" standard. Will they
stretch on to my rims? Are there suppliers who still sell
the old sizes?=20

I really don't want to re-lace these wheels since it is a
bit of a=20 classic.=20

No need, all full-sized tubulars are interchangeable.
There's actually=

=20

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

no such thing as a "27 inch" tubular, that's just a
mistaken way of=20 referring to standard sized tubulars.
There are 26" tubulars, and=20 smaller sizes, but they're
VERY rare.

I replied:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For your application, just go to a shop that sells them
and ask for a=20 "tubular" without mentioning any numbers,
and you'll get something=20 appropriate.

Werehatrack said:

=20
CambriaBike shows the Conti sew-ups as being 27", and
the Vittorio sew-ups as 700, but they fit the same rims;
go figure.

Conti is notorious for errors in tire size marking, they
have a 406mm=20 tire that is mis-marked as '20 x 1 1/8"'
which is actually a=20 designation for a 451 mm tire (which
they don't make.)

See: sheldonbrown.comtire sizingOpen ↗

Conti also once published a guide to tubular tire
installation which=20 advised on the importance of cleaning
the rust off of the rim, but as=20 far as I know nobodfy
ever made a steel tubular rim!

I seem to also recall that they once claimed that Conti
tires had won=20 the Tour de France,. That's also false.
Every winner of the Tour de=20 France to date has been a
human being.

They make good tires, but take their written materials with
a grain of sa=
lt.

Quoted message said:

If it was me, I'd re-lace to clincher rims anyway, just to
save trouble, time and money in the long run. Sew-ups are
a beast to work with by comparison to clinchers, in my
opinion, as well as more expensive and harder to find.
It's all a matter of point of view, though.

Not what Bob asked, but I agree.

Sheldon "Tubulars Aren't Worth The Tsuris" Brown An
Internet Caf=E9 in Bristol, UK +--------------------------------------------------------
---------+
| I'll be traveling in France and England throughout the
| month | of June. I hope to remain online, but don't
| know what sort | of 'Net access I'll be able to get...
| | I lost 190 MB of mail due to mailbox overload in mid
| June, | so if you wrote me and din=92t get a reply, try
| again. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------
------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-
9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find
parts shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗
sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

Sheldon Brown said:

... I seem to also recall that they once claimed that
Conti tires had won the Tour de France,. That's also
false. Every winner of the Tour de France to date has been
a human being....

Even Jacques Anquetil? 😉

--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area

Quoted message said:

Now you've popped up with this fascinating tidbit that
tiny tubulars may be rife in triathlons .

Quoted message said:

I'm just insatiably curious, not trying to argue for or
against tubulars, and wondering how rare or common they
are in worlds unknown to me--can you hazard any guess
about how many riders are using 650c tubulars in
triathlons? Ten percent? Fifty? Ninety?

You might find an answer in the bike and equipment surveys
at slowtwitch.com, or maybe not. I don't know if he counted
tubulars vs. clinchers. You probably have to distinguish
between amateur and pro level triathletes, etc.

Reasons why triathletes might use 650c tubulars:

1. Putative aero advantage of 650c wheels vs. 700c. Not sure
if modern thinking supports this - unless you can get
your body lower with 650c front wheel.

2. No mechanical support in triathlons, fix it yourself.
Some people use tubulars because they feel it's faster to
fix a flat by changing the tubular rather than by
changing an inner tube.

On 19 Jun 2004 14:34:56 -0800, Benjamin Weiner

Hey, fuel for the weiner spelling war: Here's a guy whose
NAME is weiner, who spells it like I do.

Care to enlighten us on the origin of your name?

Quoted message said:

1. Putative aero advantage of 650c wheels vs. 700c. Not
sure if modern thinking supports this - unless you can
get your body lower with 650c front wheel.

A 650c wheel would displace less air for sure. Either way,
you can, in fact, get the front of your body lower with a
650c wheel (and appropriately built bike).

Quoted message said:

2. No mechanical support in triathlons, fix it yourself.
Some people use tubulars because they feel it's faster
to fix a flat by changing the tubular rather than by
changing an inner tube.

I've never used a tubular, so I can't speak from experience;
but I've _never_ heard anybody say it was quicker to fix.
--
Rick Onanian

Rick Onanian said:

On 19 Jun 2004 14:34:56 -0800, Benjamin Weiner

Quoted message said:

Hey, fuel for the weiner spelling war: Here's a guy whose
NAME is weiner, who spells it like I do. Care to enlighten
us on the origin of your name?

Oh, fergodsake. Leave me out of the flamewars. There isn't
any joke about my name that I didn't already hear in grade
school. But since you asked, both spellings are common among
American Jews, as are both pronounciations. In my case, the
name comes from Ellis Island. I have a distant cousin who
claims the name was originally "Avigdor" and has changed his
back. The original documents must all have been in Cyrillic
(and/or Yiddish) alphabet and long gone now anyway.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1. Putative aero advantage of 650c wheels vs. 700c. Not
sure if modern thinking supports this - unless you can
get your body lower with 650c front wheel.

Quoted message said:

A 650c wheel would displace less air for sure. Either way,
you can, in fact, get the front of your body lower with a
650c wheel (and appropriately built bike).

It's physically possible, but can you pedal effectively in
that aero position? Many people are limited by flexibility.
In the era of TdF "funny bikes" with small front wheel, big
riders, such as Indurain, often had bikes with long head
tubes, for ex recently discussed in rbr:

news.com/tech.php?id=photos/2004/tech/features/pinarello/CN-
Giro-Pin_Espada_05>

Although the 650c wheel has less frontal area, the head
tube has more. Also the 650c wheel has the same linear
speed at the rim as 700c, but higher angular speed, so the
spokes are actually going around faster. Not sure if that
matters - bottom line, not sure anyone has ever proved in
a wind tunnel that 650c always has lower drag under real
constraints. Again, the guy at slowtwitch.com loves to go
off about these things, so there's a good place to
research it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2. No mechanical support in triathlons, fix it yourself.
Some people use tubulars because they feel it's faster
to fix a flat by changing the tubular rather than by
changing an inner tube.

Quoted message said:

I've never used a tubular, so I can't speak from
experience; but I've _never_ heard anybody say it was
quicker to fix.

I've seen it done, it can be quick to change a tire - pull
off old tire, put on pre-glued spare, inflate. You don't
have to worry about finding the thorn, or pinching the tube
under the bead. You probably better use a pre-stretched
spare though! Fixing in terms of _patching_ the tube is
certainly harder with tubies. That's not a field repair
though. I'm cheap and paranoid, so I usually ride clinchers.
Races at the level we're talking about are a different
situation.

Tom Sherman said:

Sheldon Brown said:

... I seem to also recall that they once claimed that
Conti tires had won the Tour de France,. That's also
false. Every winner of the Tour de France to date has
been a human being....

Even Jacques Anquetil? 😉

Wasn't the Tour (TIOOYK) won five times by a badger?

John "Well Somebody Had to Drag "TIOOYK" Out of the
Archives" Everett

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net
home.earthlink.net~jeverett3Open ↗

"John Everett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Sherman said:

Sheldon Brown said:

... I seem to also recall that they once claimed that
Conti tires had won the Tour de France,. That's also
false. Every winner of the Tour de France to date has
been a human being....

Even Jacques Anquetil? 😉

Wasn't the Tour (TIOOYK) won five times by a badger?

Yes, and to quote about said badger from Tim Moore's "French
Revolutions" (from memory) "Because it was only a minor race
he let them off with a few right hooks. If it had been the
Tour, somebody would have been eaten."

Quoted message said:

John "Well Somebody Had to Drag "TIOOYK" Out of the
Archives" Everett

And we're grateful, we really are.

FSVO "grateful".
--
"The threads in your trousers are probably quite
stable dimensionally but you can deform the trousers
quite happily."
- David Martin in uk.rec.cycling

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by carlfogel
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 02:45:31 GMT, Gonzo Bob

Quoted message said:

Sheldon Brown said:

There are 26" tubulars, and smaller sizes, but they're
VERY rare. For your application, just go to a shop that
sells them and ask for a "tubular" without mentioning
any numbers, and you'll get something appropriate.

Just as long as it's not a triathlon shop. 650C tubbies
aren't that uncommon in the tri-world. :-)

Dear G. Bob,

Aha!

Recently, there was a long thread about whether 80% of the
European peletons were using tubulars, but no one seemed to
have any solid figures and the furious arguments died down.

Another poster just asked what the point is of using
tubulars, so I pointed out that thread to him.

Now you've popped up with this fascinating tidbit that tiny
tubulars may be rife in triathlons .

I'm just insatiably curious, not trying to argue for or
against tubulars, and wondering how rare or common they are
in worlds unknown to me--can you hazard any guess about how
many riders are using 650c tubulars in triathlons? Ten
percent? Fifty? Ninety?

Eagerly,

Carl Fogel

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Gonzo Bob

D'oh, hit the wrong button.

I have no idea what percentage of triathletes use tubulars. I would be very suprised if it were more than 10%. But I use 700C tubbies (my wheels weren't available in a clincher version when I bought them - they are now) and my brother uses 650C tubbies.

Benjamin Weiner said:

Quoted message said:

I've never used a tubular, so I can't speak from
experience; but I've _never_ heard anybody say it was
quicker to fix.

I've seen it done, it can be quick to change a tire - pull
off old tire, put on pre-glued spare, inflate. You don't
have to worry about finding the thorn, or pinching the tube
under the bead.

Well, if you're going to the trouble of having a whole tire
available...you could just have a whole clincher tire with a
fresh tube available. No worry about finding the thorn,
although you still have to avoid pinching the tube.
--
Rick Onanian