New/Old Tire Size Question

Bob said:

I'm trying to figure out new/old tire sizes and what to do for
my "classic" bike from the 1970's.

I have "27" tubular tires (sew ups) from the 70's. All the tubulars I
see for sale (Ebay, haven't found them elsewhere) are marked "700c".
If I understand correctly, these are slightly smaller than the old
27" standard. Will they stretch on to my rims? Are there suppliers
who still sell the old sizes?

I really don't want to re-lace these wheels since it is a bit of a
classic.

No need, all full-sized tubulars are interchangeable. There's actually
no such thing as a "27 inch" tubular, that's just a mistaken way of
referring to standard sized tubulars. There are 26" tubulars, and
smaller sizes, but they're VERY rare.

For your application, just go to a shop that sells them and ask for a
"tubular" without mentioning any numbers, and you'll get something
appropriate.

Sheldon "I Don't Deal In Tubulars Anymore" Brown
Bristol, U.K.
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| I'll be traveling in France and England throughout the month |
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Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
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Sheldon Brown said:

Bob said:

I'm trying to figure out new/old tire sizes and what to do for
my "classic" bike from the 1970's.

I have "27" tubular tires (sew ups) from the 70's. All the tubulars I
see for sale (Ebay, haven't found them elsewhere) are marked "700c".
If I understand correctly, these are slightly smaller than the old
27" standard. Will they stretch on to my rims? Are there suppliers
who still sell the old sizes?

I really don't want to re-lace these wheels since it is a bit of a
classic.

No need, all full-sized tubulars are interchangeable. There's actually
no such thing as a "27 inch" tubular, that's just a mistaken way of
referring to standard sized tubulars. There are 26" tubulars, and
smaller sizes, but they're VERY rare.

For your application, just go to a shop that sells them and ask for a
"tubular" without mentioning any numbers, and you'll get something
appropriate.

Sheldon "I Don't Deal In Tubulars Anymore" Brown
Bristol, U.K.

CambriaBike shows the Conti sew-ups as being 27", and the Vittorio
sew-ups as 700, but they fit the same rims; go figure.

If it was me, I'd re-lace to clincher rims anyway, just to save
trouble, time and money in the long run. Sew-ups are a beast to work
with by comparison to clinchers, in my opinion, as well as more
expensive and harder to find. It's all a matter of point of view,
though.

Sheldon Brown said:

There are 26" tubulars, and smaller sizes, but they're VERY rare.
For your application, just go to a shop that sells them and ask for a
"tubular" without mentioning any numbers, and you'll get something
appropriate.

Just as long as it's not a triathlon shop. 650C tubbies aren't that
uncommon in the tri-world. :-)

--

Gonzo Bob said:

Sheldon Brown said:

There are 26" tubulars, and smaller sizes, but they're VERY rare.
For your application, just go to a shop that sells them and ask for a
"tubular" without mentioning any numbers, and you'll get something
appropriate.

Just as long as it's not a triathlon shop. 650C tubbies aren't that
uncommon in the tri-world. :-)

Dear G. Bob,

Aha!

Recently, there was a long thread about whether 80% of the
European peletons were using tubulars, but no one seemed to
have any solid figures and the furious arguments died down.

Another poster just asked what the point is of using
tubulars, so I pointed out that thread to him.

Now you've popped up with this fascinating tidbit that tiny
tubulars may be rife in triathlons .

I'm just insatiably curious, not trying to argue for or
against tubulars, and wondering how rare or common they are
in worlds unknown to me--can you hazard any guess about how
many riders are using 650c tubulars in triathlons? Ten
percent? Fifty? Ninety?

Eagerly,

Carl Fogel

Bob said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm trying to figure out new/old tire sizes and what to do for=20
my "classic" bike from the 1970's.

I have "27" tubular tires (sew ups) from the 70's. All the tubulars I =

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

see for sale (Ebay, haven't found them elsewhere) are marked "700c".=20
If I understand correctly, these are slightly smaller than the old
27" standard. Will they stretch on to my rims? Are there suppliers
who still sell the old sizes?=20

I really don't want to re-lace these wheels since it is a bit of a=20
classic.=20

No need, all full-sized tubulars are interchangeable. There's actually=

=20

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

no such thing as a "27 inch" tubular, that's just a mistaken way of=20
referring to standard sized tubulars. There are 26" tubulars, and=20
smaller sizes, but they're VERY rare.

I replied:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For your application, just go to a shop that sells them and ask for a=20
"tubular" without mentioning any numbers, and you'll get something=20
appropriate.

Werehatrack said:

=20
CambriaBike shows the Conti sew-ups as being 27", and the Vittorio
sew-ups as 700, but they fit the same rims; go figure.

Conti is notorious for errors in tire size marking, they have a 406mm=20
tire that is mis-marked as '20 x 1 1/8"' which is actually a=20
designation for a 451 mm tire (which they don't make.)

See: http://sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing

Conti also once published a guide to tubular tire installation which=20
advised on the importance of cleaning the rust off of the rim, but as=20
far as I know nobodfy ever made a steel tubular rim!

I seem to also recall that they once claimed that Conti tires had won=20
the Tour de France,. That's also false. Every winner of the Tour de=20
France to date has been a human being.

They make good tires, but take their written materials with a grain of sa=
lt.

Quoted message said:

If it was me, I'd re-lace to clincher rims anyway, just to save
trouble, time and money in the long run. Sew-ups are a beast to work
with by comparison to clinchers, in my opinion, as well as more
expensive and harder to find. It's all a matter of point of view,
though.

Not what Bob asked, but I agree.

Sheldon "Tubulars Aren't Worth The Tsuris" Brown
An Internet Caf=E9 in Bristol, UK
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| I'll be traveling in France and England throughout the month |
| of June. I hope to remain online, but don't know what sort |
| of 'Net access I'll be able to get... |
| I lost 190 MB of mail due to mailbox overload in mid June, |
| so if you wrote me and din=92t get a reply, try again. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

On 19 Jun 2004 14:34:56 -0800, Benjamin Weiner

Hey, fuel for the weiner spelling war: Here's a guy whose NAME is
weiner, who spells it like I do.

Care to enlighten us on the origin of your name?

Quoted message said:

1. Putative aero advantage of 650c wheels vs. 700c. Not
sure if modern thinking supports this - unless you can get
your body lower with 650c front wheel.

A 650c wheel would displace less air for sure. Either way, you can,
in fact, get the front of your body lower with a 650c wheel (and
appropriately built bike).

Quoted message said:

2. No mechanical support in triathlons, fix it yourself.
Some people use tubulars because they feel it's faster
to fix a flat by changing the tubular rather than by
changing an inner tube.

I've never used a tubular, so I can't speak from experience; but
I've _never_ heard anybody say it was quicker to fix.
--
Rick Onanian

Quoted message said:

Now you've popped up with this fascinating tidbit that tiny
tubulars may be rife in triathlons .

Quoted message said:

I'm just insatiably curious, not trying to argue for or
against tubulars, and wondering how rare or common they are
in worlds unknown to me--can you hazard any guess about how
many riders are using 650c tubulars in triathlons? Ten
percent? Fifty? Ninety?

You might find an answer in the bike and equipment surveys
at slowtwitch.com, or maybe not. I don't know if he counted
tubulars vs. clinchers. You probably have to distinguish
between amateur and pro level triathletes, etc.

Reasons why triathletes might use 650c tubulars:

1. Putative aero advantage of 650c wheels vs. 700c. Not
sure if modern thinking supports this - unless you can get
your body lower with 650c front wheel.

2. No mechanical support in triathlons, fix it yourself.
Some people use tubulars because they feel it's faster
to fix a flat by changing the tubular rather than by
changing an inner tube.

Rick Onanian said:

On 19 Jun 2004 14:34:56 -0800, Benjamin Weiner

Quoted message said:

Hey, fuel for the weiner spelling war: Here's a guy whose NAME is
weiner, who spells it like I do.
Care to enlighten us on the origin of your name?

Oh, fergodsake. Leave me out of the flamewars. There isn't
any joke about my name that I didn't already hear in grade school.
But since you asked, both spellings are common among American
Jews, as are both pronounciations. In my case, the name comes
from Ellis Island. I have a distant cousin who claims the name
was originally "Avigdor" and has changed his back. The original
documents must all have been in Cyrillic (and/or Yiddish) alphabet
and long gone now anyway.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1. Putative aero advantage of 650c wheels vs. 700c. Not
sure if modern thinking supports this - unless you can get
your body lower with 650c front wheel.

Quoted message said:

A 650c wheel would displace less air for sure. Either way, you can,
in fact, get the front of your body lower with a 650c wheel (and
appropriately built bike).

It's physically possible, but can you pedal effectively in that
aero position? Many people are limited by flexibility. In the
era of TdF "funny bikes" with small front wheel, big riders, such
as Indurain, often had bikes with long head tubes, for ex
recently discussed in rbr:

<http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=photos/2004/tech/features/pinarello/CN-Giro-Pin_Espada_05>

Although the 650c wheel has less frontal area, the head tube has more.
Also the 650c wheel has the same linear speed at the rim as 700c, but
higher angular speed, so the spokes are actually going around faster.
Not sure if that matters - bottom line, not sure anyone has ever
proved in a wind tunnel that 650c always has lower drag under real
constraints. Again, the guy at slowtwitch.com loves to go off about
these things, so there's a good place to research it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2. No mechanical support in triathlons, fix it yourself.
Some people use tubulars because they feel it's faster
to fix a flat by changing the tubular rather than by
changing an inner tube.

Quoted message said:

I've never used a tubular, so I can't speak from experience; but
I've _never_ heard anybody say it was quicker to fix.

I've seen it done, it can be quick to change a tire - pull off
old tire, put on pre-glued spare, inflate. You don't have to
worry about finding the thorn, or pinching the tube under the
bead. You probably better use a pre-stretched spare though!
Fixing in terms of _patching_ the tube is certainly harder
with tubies. That's not a field repair though. I'm cheap
and paranoid, so I usually ride clinchers. Races at the level
we're talking about are a different situation.

Tom Sherman said:

Sheldon Brown said:

...
I seem to also recall that they once claimed that Conti tires had won
the Tour de France,. That's also false. Every winner of the Tour de
France to date has been a human being....

Even Jacques Anquetil? 😉

Wasn't the Tour (TIOOYK) won five times by a badger?

John "Well Somebody Had to Drag "TIOOYK" Out of the Archives" Everett

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

"John Everett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Sherman said:

Sheldon Brown said:

...
I seem to also recall that they once claimed that Conti tires had won
the Tour de France,. That's also false. Every winner of the Tour de
France to date has been a human being....

Even Jacques Anquetil? 😉

Wasn't the Tour (TIOOYK) won five times by a badger?

Yes, and to quote about said badger from Tim Moore's "French Revolutions" (from
memory) "Because it was only a minor race he let them off with a few right
hooks. If it had been the Tour, somebody would have been eaten."

Quoted message said:

John "Well Somebody Had to Drag "TIOOYK" Out of the Archives" Everett

And we're grateful, we really are.

FSVO "grateful".
--
"The threads in your trousers are probably quite stable
dimensionally but you can deform the trousers quite happily."
- David Martin in uk.rec.cycling

Gonzo Bob wrote:

D'oh, hit the wrong button.

I have no idea what percentage of triathletes use tubulars. I would be
very suprised if it were more than 10%. But I use 700C tubbies (my
wheels weren't available in a clincher version when I bought them - they
are now) and my brother uses 650C tubbies.

--

Benjamin Weiner said:

Quoted message said:

I've never used a tubular, so I can't speak from experience; but
I've _never_ heard anybody say it was quicker to fix.

I've seen it done, it can be quick to change a tire - pull off
old tire, put on pre-glued spare, inflate. You don't have to
worry about finding the thorn, or pinching the tube under the
bead.

Well, if you're going to the trouble of having a whole tire
available...you could just have a whole clincher tire with a fresh
tube available. No worry about finding the thorn, although you still
have to avoid pinching the tube.
--
Rick Onanian