new hub recommendations/options please

"tony R" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hello all, I'm hoping Santa will build me some new wheels for my tourer this winter.

My

Quoted message said:

problem is what hubs to go for. The space between the dropouts at rear measures 127mm. but as the
original hubs are 1991 XT I'm assuming this can be pushed to 130mm. Am I right? Also I'm
definitely sticking to a 7 speed set-up. Can I use an 8 speed hub and a spacer or some such thing?
So, I need a hub that is strong enough for loaded touring, good enough

seals

Quoted message said:

for regular wet riding, will accept 7 speed Shimano cassettes, and will squeeze between my
dropouts. Any recommendations?

Hmm. I'd probably go for an 8/9 speed freehub, as spares will be easier to find and as you surmise
you can use a spacer. (You can possibly just use straight 8 speed - 7sp shimano shifters sometimes
have a spare click (not sti though)).

130mm - well, I'd just go for an ultegra or 105, but don't know how these compare with eg XT for
weather resistance. How important is the spacing? (compatibility with other wheels?) Redishing to
135mm will give a stronger wheel and an easier choice (XT).

cheers, clive

tony R said:

Hello all, I'm hoping Santa will build me some new wheels for my tourer this winter. My problem is
what hubs to go for. The space between the dropouts at rear measures 127mm. but as the original
hubs are 1991 XT I'm assuming this can be pushed to 130mm. Am I right?

A steel frame can be spread to 130mm and beyond. Might not even be necessary if getting 130 hub as
frame can sometimes be "sprung" open enough by force each time wheel is inserted. Success of that
depends on precise dimenions, design & surface of hub locknuts and your strength. I could *almost*
do that with my Royal and a 130mm Campag 8sp when frame was about 125mm. Some custom frames are
built to 132.5mm (or 132 or 133mm) so to accept either 130 or 135mm hubs. Might be good to copy that
idea. I accidentally did this with mine after I got carried away with me threaded rod! Would be
useful for keeping future and emergency options open.

Full article on the subject: www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html

There is a side effect, though, especially important with 135mm: Angle of chain from chainset will
be compromised and may even be unacceptable. You'd need a longer bottom bracket to fix that if it
was a problem.

Quoted message said:

Also I'm definitely sticking to a 7 speed set-up. Can I use an 8 speed hub and a spacer or some
such thing?

I think so. If 7sp spline pattern is compatible, just fit 7sp cassette with spacer behind it (under
largest sprocket). Alternatively, an 8sp cassette can be converted to 7sp HG by removing
rivets/bolts, discarding a sprocket and swapping spacers. Note re hub descriptions: Same Shimano
hubs take both 9 and 8sp cassettes.

Spacing info: www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html#spacing

Quoted message said:

So, I need a hub that is strong enough for loaded touring, good enough seals for regular wet
riding, will accept 7 speed Shimano cassettes, and will squeeze between my dropouts. Any
recommendations?

Sorry I haven't got enough experience with modern Shimano hubs to recommend a model. Personally, I
would expect all Shimanos to be strong enough and *might* be tempted to go with a 130 "road" hub for
the sake of a better chainline (from standard BB) even if it wasn't so well sealed as a 135mm
MTB-style hub. I would also see if anyone had any decent new old stock 126mm hubs.

~PB

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hmm. I'd probably go for an 8/9 speed freehub, as spares will be easier to find and as you surmise
you can use a spacer. (You can possibly just use straight 8 speed - 7sp shimano shifters sometimes
have a spare click (not sti though)).

That's interesting. Do you mean I could actually fit an 8 speed cassette? The shifters are downtube,
Shimano 600 from 1991. I must check if they have an extra click somewhere!

Quoted message said:

130mm - well, I'd just go for an ultegra or 105, but don't know how these compare with eg XT for
weather resistance. How important is the spacing? (compatibility with other wheels?) Redishing to
135mm will give a stronger wheel and an easier choice (XT).

I don't really want to mess with the spacing, especially if it's just to fill the extra space with
spacers. If that makes sense - I'm a bit spaced out now. thanks, tony R.

What Pete said. My tourer's frame was built for 126mm hubs; the Campag Record which lurks therein is
also 126. However, by added a stout washer each side and spronging the frame, it's possible to run a
7-speed block in place of the six that were previously there. I suspect fatter washers /might/
sprong the frame far enough to use eight, but I'm not about to try it any time soon.

Dave Larrington - legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uklegslarry.beerdrinkers.co.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================

tony R said:

That's interesting. Do you mean I could actually fit an 8 speed cassette? The shifters are
downtube, Shimano 600 from 1991. I must check if they have an extra click somewhere!

You'll probably be able to push the lever down below the bottom click to get an extra position but
8sp spacing (distance between sprocket centers) is officially incorrect for 7sp (5mm for 7sp v 4.8mm
for 8sp) - but that's close enough for a reasonable bodge. Worth a try. A new rear derailleur may be
required if existing one doesn't have enough travel

~PB

tony R said:

Hello all, I'm hoping Santa will build me some new wheels for my tourer this winter. My problem is
what hubs to go for. The space between the dropouts at rear measures 127mm. but as the original
hubs are 1991 XT I'm assuming this can be pushed to 130mm. Am I right? Also I'm definitely
sticking to a 7 speed set-up. Can I use an 8 speed hub and a spacer or some such thing? So, I need
a hub that is strong enough for loaded touring, good enough seals for regular wet riding, will
accept 7 speed Shimano cassettes, and will squeeze between my dropouts. Any recommendations?
Thanks, tony R.

I have a Royal which has 1990 Deore hub at 126mm. It currently has 6 sprockets on and will take 7
with slightly smaller spacers. It will also take 8 sprockets with spacers from a 9 speed cassette
and shifted with 9 speed shifters. Shimano freehubs are interchangeable, I have swapped a Uniglide
one for a hyperglide one. Sheldon Browns site gives you the details. So with 126mm you can go up to
8 speed if you want.

A steel frame can be widened either at home or by a frame builder on the jig. Mine was done at home
then fixed some time later at a frame builders.

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

tony R said:

Hello all, I'm hoping Santa will build me some new wheels for my tourer this winter. My problem
is what hubs to go for. The space between the dropouts at rear measures 127mm. but as the
original hubs are 1991 XT I'm assuming this can be pushed to 130mm. Am I right?

A steel frame can be spread to 130mm and beyond. Might not even be necessary if getting 130 hub as
frame can sometimes be "sprung" open enough by force each time wheel is inserted. Success of that
depends on precise dimenions, design & surface of hub locknuts and your strength. I could *almost*
do that with my Royal and a 130mm Campag 8sp when frame was about 125mm.

This is what I was hoping to be able to do. I don't really want to cold set the frame (or get new
derailleurs/bottom brackets for that matter). I hadn't noticed that the the old hub was overly
difficult to get on and off the frame so does that mean a 1991 XT is 126mm.? Anyone know? I suppose
I could dismantle mine and measure something but my hands are clean today.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also I'm definitely sticking to a 7 speed set-up. Can I use an 8 speed hub and a spacer or some
such thing?

I think so. If 7sp spline pattern is compatible, just fit 7sp cassette with spacer behind it
(under largest sprocket).

Are spacers for this all the same size or do I need to match one to a specific cassette?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, I need a hub that is strong enough for loaded touring, good enough seals for regular wet
riding, will accept 7 speed Shimano cassettes, and will squeeze between my dropouts. Any
recommendations?

Sorry I haven't got enough experience with modern Shimano hubs to recommend a model. Personally, I
would expect all Shimanos to be strong enough and *might* be tempted to go with a 130 "road" hub
for the sake of a better chainline (from standard BB) even if it wasn't so well sealed as a 135mm
MTB-style hub. I would also see if anyone had any decent new old stock 126mm hubs.

If I can fit a 130mm. hub in my choices would seem to be "road" hubs or Deore (130mm. according to
Gearshift catalogue). Would a decent road hub, say Ultegra, do the job better than a Deore one or is
it just a matter of weight? As far as new old stock goes, most of my LBSs would rather sell me
something, anything, than get repeat custom in my experience. The only one I'd trust (and even then
I'd rather walk in having asked here first) tells me he has none. Thanks for all the info Pete (and
Dave and Clive), I knew this was going to be complicated. And I still have to find a wheelbuilder -
no I don't want to learn on these wheels, maybe the old ones can be practised on. tony R.

"tony R" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As far as new old stock goes, most of my LBSs would rather sell me something, anything, than get
repeat custom in my experience. The only one I'd trust (and even then I'd rather walk in having
asked here first) tells me he has none.

I wouldn't go new old stock. It's getting harder to find replacement 7 speed freehubs for the nicer
hubs these days, whereas 8/9 has some years left in
it.

cheers, clive

tony R said:

Quoted message said:

A steel frame can be spread to 130mm and beyond. Might not even be necessary if getting 130 hub
as frame can sometimes be "sprung" open enough by force each time wheel is inserted. Success of
that depends on precise dimenions, design & surface of hub locknuts and your strength. I could
*almost* do that with my Royal and a 130mm Campag 8sp when frame was about 125mm.

This is what I was hoping to be able to do. I don't really want to cold set the frame

You'll most likely be able to do that. I understand the reluctance to cold set (I felt the same way
for years) but it really won't be difficult or damaging it it is necessary. I found the job
remarkably easy using the threaded rod method and it'll be a piece of cake for any *good* bike shop
(if you can find one). Checking the alignment afterwards is the trickiest aspect - I must admit I
didn't bother with mine and just rode the thing - seems alright, fortunatley.

Quoted message said:

(or get new derailleurs/bottom brackets for that matter).

Hopefully that won't be necessary for a 130mm hub.

Quoted message said:

I hadn't noticed that the the old hub was overly difficult to get on and off the frame so does
that mean a 1991 XT is 126mm.? Anyone know? I suppose I could dismantle mine and measure
something but my hands are clean today.

(I expect so but I don't know)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

........If 7sp spline pattern is compatible, just fit 7sp cassette with spacer behind it (under
largest sprocket).

Are spacers for this all the same size or do I need to match one to a specific cassette?

No need to match to the specific cassette or hub models - just needs to be correct thickness for
*type* of hub & 7sp cassette. This can be worked out using the info from
www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html#spacing

I don't know if there is a specific spacer (of precisely the right size) on the market especially
for this (might well be) but an ordinary cassette spacer or combination of spacers can be used if
right size can be found or made up. Doesn't have to precisely correct as lockring will cope with a
bit of error either way - I expect at least up to 1mm out would be ok (especially considering 8 and
9sp cassettes are slightly different in width yet they fit on the same hubs).

I calculate: Shimano 9sp cassette is 36.5mm wide, Shimano 8sp is 35.4mm. There are two types of
Shimano 7-speed: HG and IG (I don't know which you'll have). HG 7sp cassette is 31.85mm wide, IG
is 32.35mm.

I reckon 3.5 to 4.7mm should do for HG, 3 to 4.2mm for IG. Personally, I would try spacers taken
from various Shimano, Campag and Marchisio cassettes (see the Sheldon Brown chart and
anysystem.deanysystem.deOpen ↗) combined with one or more Marchisio 0.5mm spacers (cheap from Marchiso cassette
dealer) until I found a combo that worked snuggly.

Quoted message said:

If I can fit a 130mm. hub in my choices would seem to be "road" hubs or Deore (130mm. according to
Gearshift catalogue). Would a decent road hub, say Ultegra, do the job better than a Deore one or
is it just a matter of weight?

No, the seals are different as well. Sorry I'm not sure whether road hubs would be okay or not for a
long wet tour with no servicing.

re: new old stock 126: On second thoights, I agree that it would be better to get a 130mm hub for
the sake of future compatibility.

~PB

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

tony R wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are spacers for this all the same size or do I need to match one to a specific cassette?

No need to match to the specific cassette or hub models - just needs to be correct thickness for
*type* of hub & 7sp cassette. This can be worked out using the info from
www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html#spacing

I don't know if there is a specific spacer (of precisely the right size) on the market especially
for this (might well be) but an ordinary cassette spacer or combination of spacers can be used if
right size can be found or made up. Doesn't have to precisely correct as lockring will cope with a
bit of error either way - I expect at least up to 1mm out would be ok (especially considering 8
and 9sp cassettes are slightly different in width yet they fit on the same hubs).

I calculate: Shimano 9sp cassette is 36.5mm wide, Shimano 8sp is 35.4mm. There are two types of
Shimano 7-speed: HG and IG (I don't know which you'll have). HG 7sp cassette is 31.85mm wide, IG
is 32.35mm.

I reckon 3.5 to 4.7mm should do for HG, 3 to 4.2mm for IG. Personally, I would try spacers taken
from various Shimano, Campag and Marchisio cassettes (see the Sheldon Brown chart and
anysystem.deanysystem.deOpen ↗) combined with one or more Marchisio 0.5mm spacers (cheap from Marchiso
cassette dealer) until I found a combo that worked snuggly.

I'm glad you did that. My eyes glaze over when shown tables like that. So, just to be clear, as I
normally use HG 7 speed cassettes; were I end up with an 8 speed hub I'd need to find approx. 3.5mm.
of spacers and fit them on the hub before the cassette. Is that right?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If I can fit a 130mm. hub in my choices would seem to be "road" hubs or Deore (130mm. according
to Gearshift catalogue). Would a decent road hub, say Ultegra, do the job better than a Deore
one or is it just a matter of weight?

No, the seals are different as well. Sorry I'm not sure whether road hubs would be okay or not for
a long wet tour with no servicing.

re: new old stock 126: On second thoights, I agree that it would be better to get a 130mm hub for
the sake of future compatibility.

A quick browse through the Shimano site reveals that all their decent MTB rear hubs are now 135mm.
So it seems that Ultegra might be the best way for me to go. I do seem to get rained on quite a bit
when I tour. Do road hubs really wash out that quickly? If so I suppose I'll just have to add a
couple of cone spanners to my touring kit.
ps. all front hubs are 100mm. aren't they? thanks again, tony R.

tony R said:

Quoted message said:

I reckon 3.5 to 4.7mm should do for HG, 3 to 4.2mm for IG. Personally, I would try spacers taken
from various Shimano, Campag and Marchisio cassettes (see the Sheldon Brown chart and
anysystem.deanysystem.deOpen ↗) combined with one or more Marchisio 0.5mm spacers (cheap from Marchiso
cassette dealer) until I found a combo that worked snuggly.

I'm glad you did that. My eyes glaze over when shown tables like that.

So do mine for quite a while! It's easy, really. For each cassette, just add up sprocket thickness
times number of sprockets, plus spacer thickness times number of sprockets minus one. Amount of
bulking required is the difference.

Quoted message said:

just to be clear, as I normally use HG 7 speed cassettes; were I end up with an 8 speed hub I'd
need to find approx. 3.5mm. of spacers and fit them on the hub before the cassette. Is that right?

That's right, yes. It would be wise to check size required via rec.bicycles.tech before buying
spacers if you don't find a few various used ones cheap.

Quoted message said:

A quick browse through the Shimano site reveals that all their decent MTB rear hubs are now 135mm.
So it seems that Ultegra might be the best way for me to go. I do seem to get rained on quite a
bit when I tour. Do road hubs really wash out that quickly?

I was being cautious. My guess is that one would be ok but it'll be interesting to see what Shimano
users say - particularly if anyone's done more than say 4000 miles on an Ultegra, including plenty
in wet weather, without servicing: When you eventually open them up, are the bearings reasonably
clean (ie grit-free) with plenty of grease left? If they survive that then they'll be fine for a
tour with heavy rain & mud every day!

Quoted message said:

ps. all front hubs are 100mm. aren't they?

Yes - all but the most unusual front hubs are 100mm.

cheers ~PB

Quoted message said:

It would be wise to check size required via rec.bicycles.tech before buying spacers if you don't
find a few various used ones cheap.

ps. I'm doing that now - and checking 7sp sprocket compatibility.

~PB