New bike placebo?

Are you nuts? You've had a new bike for more than 60 seconds without
riding it? And I suppose I have to say "Happy Birthday" and
"Congratulations on hitting your weight loss target" to a guy who can
resist riding a new bike, too.

Part of what you experienced might be just because it's new. What have
you been riding? And which model Pinarello did you get, with what
components?

You lucky dog! I've been having to get excited about new shoes that we
were able to buy for half price on a club deal.

Colin Campbell said:

Are you nuts?  You've had a new bike for more than 60 seconds without
riding it?  And I suppose I have to say "Happy Birthday" and
"Congratulations on hitting your weight loss target" to a guy who can
resist riding a new bike, too.

Part of what you experienced might be just because it's new.  What have
you been riding?  And which model Pinarello did you get, with what
components?

Old bike was a 2005 Pinarello Galileo with Ultegra. New bike is Dogma
with Dura Ace, but the same Ultegra Velocity Deep-V wheels. I got the
frame in November, so I have been waiting for this day for a while.

The old bike is in top condition, with new chain, cables, etc so it is
functionally as new.

Quoted message said:

You lucky dog!  I've been having to get excited about new shoes that we
were able to buy for half price on a club deal.

If I could find shoes that fit...

Joseph

email hidden said:

Hi All,

I finally took my new bike out for a ride. I'd been saving it as a
combo birthday present to myself, and reward for reaching a certain
goal in my weigh-loss plan.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

But there must be some explanation beyond placebo. Could the stiffness
really make that much difference?

Joseph

The last time I spent funds on a brand new bike I test drove it and
ended up at the ATM where I withdrew enough cash to drive the thing
home. I barely got off the bike after 1st getting on it.

Its not just 'new car smell', I'll bet it is a combination of things
though.

TBerk

Quoted message said:

But there must be some explanation beyond placebo. Could the stiffness
really make that much difference?

I think so, particularly in larger sizes. I noticed this right away when
I switched to a new Cannondale several years ago, switching over all
components. People claim Cannondales are harsh, I never noticed that. I
did notice it felt much more stable in turns. I think it's the
torsional rigidity.

Quoted message said:

Colin Campbell said:

Are you nuts? You've had a new bike for more than 60 seconds without
riding it? And I suppose I have to say "Happy Birthday" and
"Congratulations on hitting your weight loss target" to a guy who can
resist riding a new bike, too.

Part of what you experienced might be just because it's new. What have
you been riding? And which model Pinarello did you get, with what
components?

Old bike was a 2005 Pinarello Galileo with Ultegra. New bike is Dogma
with Dura Ace, but the same Ultegra Velocity Deep-V wheels. I got the
frame in November, so I have been waiting for this day for a while.

The old bike is in top condition, with new chain, cables, etc so it is
functionally as new.

Quoted message said:

You lucky dog! I've been having to get excited about new shoes that we
were able to buy for half price on a club deal.

If I could find shoes that fit...

Joseph

Well, these shoes LOOK good; it remains to be seen how well they fit.

DMT Magnesium shoes in white (I wasn't brave enough to go for the
Petacchi yellow). I learned that these shoes are incompatible with
Campagnolo Record Pro-Fit cleats. DMT said that they'll have a fix for
next model year; meanwhile, they say they are sending me special screws
from Italy.

It took a trip to the bike shop and using some washers from some Shimano
cleats to get the cleats on. I haven't finished setting the position yet.

Peter Cole said:

Quoted message said:

But there must be some explanation beyond placebo. Could the stiffness
really make that much difference?

I think so, particularly in larger sizes. I noticed this right away when
I switched to a new Cannondale several years ago, switching over all
components. People claim Cannondales are harsh, I never noticed that. I
  did notice it felt much more stable in turns. I think it's the
torsional rigidity.

Weight also matters -- 3kg is a significant weight loss I'm pretty
big, too, and find that tortional stiffness in the top tube/head tube
and a stiff BB make a whole lot of difference climbing out of the
saddle. Cannondale has made real efforts to maintain stiffness in
those areas while making the frame somewhat more limber than the
original rides-like-rocks 6061 straight gauge tubing frames. They
also use fairly long top tubes (which I like) and wheel bases that are
not ridiculously short -- just short. It is a good budget bike. -- Jay
Beattie.

Peter Cole said:

Quoted message said:

But there must be some explanation beyond placebo. Could the stiffness
really make that much difference?

I think so, particularly in larger sizes. I noticed this right away when
I switched to a new Cannondale several years ago, switching over all
components. People claim Cannondales are harsh, I never noticed that. I
  did notice it felt much more stable in turns. I think it's the
torsional rigidity.

The bike has an extremely beefy fork too. I wonder how much a more
normal fork sags under 100kg? I suppose I could ask someone ot measure
the wheelbase with me on the bike, but I don't have the old one to
compare to anymore. I wonder what effect sag would have on handling?

Joseph

Colin Campbell said:

Quoted message said:

Colin Campbell said:

Are you nuts?  You've had a new bike for more than 60 seconds without
riding it?  And I suppose I have to say "Happy Birthday" and
"Congratulations on hitting your weight loss target" to a guy who can
resist riding a new bike, too.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Part of what you experienced might be just because it's new.  What have
you been riding?  And which model Pinarello did you get, with what
components?

Quoted message said:

Old bike was a 2005 Pinarello Galileo with Ultegra. New bike is Dogma
with Dura Ace, but the same Ultegra Velocity Deep-V wheels. I got the
frame in November, so I have been waiting for this day for a while.

Quoted message said:

The old bike is in top condition, with new chain, cables, etc so it is
functionally as new.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You lucky dog!  I've been having to get excited about new shoes that we
were able to buy for half price on a club deal.

Quoted message said:

If I could find shoes that fit...

Quoted message said:

Joseph

Well, these shoes LOOK good; it remains to be seen how well they fit.

DMT Magnesium shoes in white (I wasn't brave enough to go for the
Petacchi yellow).  I learned that these shoes are incompatible with
Campagnolo Record Pro-Fit cleats.  DMT said that they'll have a fix for
next model year; meanwhile, they say they are sending me special screws
from Italy.

It took a trip to the bike shop and using some washers from some Shimano
cleats to get the cleats on.  I haven't finished setting the position yet.

Sweet! Don't drag your heel on the ground stretching your calves! The
sparks could be disconcerting!

Joseph

email hidden said:

Hi All,

I finally took my new bike out for a ride. I'd been saving it as a
combo birthday present to myself, and reward for reaching a certain
goal in my weigh-loss plan.

It is a bit bigger than my old bike, mostly so I can have the bars a
bit higher without resorting to extreme measures. I set up the bike
with the bars 1cm higher and 1cm farther than my old bike. Seat
relative to bb is the same. The wheels are the same, I just swapped
them over. The geometry is the same, except for a slightly longer top
tube and head-tube.

Somehow the new bike is so much better than the old one that I can't
belive it. It absolutely blew me away on the ride today. I was carving
into corners, and sprinting out of them, and just flying. Over bumpy
pavement, I just floated over like it was nothing. My old bike was
much more jarring on the same sections, and didn't urge me to wail
through turns.

So why is this bike SOOOOO much better? It is almost 3kg lighter,
which might make a difference in the sprung to unsprung ratio over
bumps, but what about cornering? The new bike is super stiff (I would
be hard pressed to find a stiffer frame). Could the stiffness of the
frame be keeping things more precise in turns? It is made from
Magnesium, which I have read has absorbtion properties that make it
good for bikes, but I always assumed that was just BS. Pinarello also
uses swoopy double curved forks and seat stays which according to
their marketing pitch help the ride, but I also figured this was BS.
Could all that actually have a hint of truth to it?

But there must be some explanation beyond placebo. Could the stiffness
really make that much difference?

Joseph

(Sorry for not trimming the context, but I am really replying to the
whole thing.)

Placebo effect is real, of course, but I think in this case there's
probably more going on. You've been intimately getting familiar with
this bike for some time - selecting, building, thinking about and
patiently working toward the end objectives. When the time to ride
finally came, things worked out like they should and hopefully would.

When I was 16 years old, I spent the winter building a racing bike
(motorcycle). On the first race day, I had hardly ever ridden the
thing at all, but had been living and working with it for some time.
On the track everything felt fast and just about perfect, IIRC. The
bike just disappeared under me (or vice-versa... or something), and we
were a unified entity. I finished very well the first time out, and a
highly respected friend simply said, "You should have been riding that
bike all along."

I think I can relate to the feeling you describe, and it made me smile
to read it.

(Luck can be a factor, too.)

Dan O said:

On May 2, 11:28 am, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

Quoted message said:

I finally took my new bike out for a ride. I'd been saving it as a
combo birthday present to myself, and reward for reaching a certain
goal in my weigh-loss plan.

Quoted message said:

It is a bit bigger than my old bike, mostly so I can have the bars a
bit higher without resorting to extreme measures. I set up the bike
with the bars 1cm higher and 1cm farther than my old bike. Seat
relative to bb is the same. The wheels are the same, I just swapped
them over. The geometry is the same, except for a slightly longer top
tube and head-tube.

Quoted message said:

Somehow the new bike is so much better than the old one that I can't
belive it. It absolutely blew me away on the ride today. I was carving
into corners, and sprinting out of them, and just flying. Over bumpy
pavement, I just floated over like it was nothing. My old bike was
much more jarring on the same sections, and didn't urge me to wail
through turns.

Quoted message said:

So why is this bike SOOOOO much better? It is almost 3kg lighter,
which might make a difference in the sprung to unsprung ratio over
bumps, but what about cornering? The new bike is super stiff (I would
be hard pressed to find a stiffer frame). Could the stiffness of the
frame be keeping things more precise in turns? It is made from
Magnesium, which I have read has absorbtion properties that make it
good for bikes, but I always assumed that was just BS. Pinarello also
uses swoopy double curved forks and seat stays which according to
their marketing pitch help the ride, but I also figured this was BS.
Could all that actually have a hint of truth to it?

Quoted message said:

But there must be some explanation beyond placebo. Could the stiffness
really make that much difference?

Quoted message said:

Joseph

(Sorry for not trimming the context, but I am really replying to the
whole thing.)

Placebo effect is real, of course, but I think in this case there's
probably more going on.  You've been intimately getting familiar with
this bike for some time - selecting, building, thinking about and
patiently working toward the end objectives.  When the time to ride
finally came, things worked out like they should and hopefully would.

When I was 16 years old, I spent the winter building a racing bike
(motorcycle).  On the first race day, I had hardly ever ridden the
thing at all, but had been living and working with it for some time.
On the track everything felt fast and just about perfect, IIRC.  The
bike just disappeared under me (or vice-versa... or something), and we
were a unified entity.  I finished very well the first time out, and a
highly respected friend simply said, "You should have been riding that
bike all along."

I think I can relate to the feeling you describe, and it made me smile
to read it.

(Luck can  be a factor, too.)

Sounds like a very similar experience. I did indeed spend a lot of
time over several months thinking about and detrmining things like bar
angle, etc. On the first ride I had with me hex keys and was planning
on making adjustments. Everything was perfect. I had high hopes for
the bike, but I was also a little concerned I would be let down by
having such perhaps unrealistically high expectations. Any worries
were completely unfounded. It is awsome. Today it was just as good.

Joseph

email hidden said:

So why is this bike SOOOOO much better?

I'm envious. I built up a new frame last Nov... went from a flexy
3.5lb Ti frame with heavy fork to 2.4lb stiff carbon frame with a
light fork. Unfortunately the maiden voyage was after a forced 2 week
layoff because of a back injury... and I was super slow. Stiff frame,
yes... I liked that part... but my first time up a local hill I was a
full 20% off the pace I'd set only a few weeks early. I figured I'd
lost some fitness, but 20%? I found myself looking at Ti frames on
ebay. Anyway, I'm still a long way from matching my performances from
last fall.

How did you lose 3kg on the bike? That seems like an incredible amount
considering that your old one was pretty good.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So why is this bike SOOOOO much better?

Ron Ruff said:

I'm envious. I built up a new frame last Nov... went from a flexy
3.5lb Ti frame with heavy fork to 2.4lb stiff carbon frame with a
light fork. Unfortunately the maiden voyage was after a forced 2 week
layoff because of a back injury... and I was super slow. Stiff frame,
yes... I liked that part... but my first time up a local hill I was a
full 20% off the pace I'd set only a few weeks early. I figured I'd
lost some fitness, but 20%? I found myself looking at Ti frames on
ebay. Anyway, I'm still a long way from matching my performances from
last fall.
How did you lose 3kg on the bike? That seems like an incredible amount
considering that your old one was pretty good.

Maybe it's shiny red, a known 'fast color'.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

ITS ITS ITS MAGNESIUM

now we know why joe has feet larger than our feet ?

Jay Beattie said:

Cannondale [...] It is a good budget bike. -- Jay
Beattie.

Ouch. I've always considered it my "good" bike. I had no idea things had
gone so upscale. Looks like I'll have to start riding at night.

datakoll aka GENE daniels said:

ITS ITS ITS MAGNESIUM

now we know why joe has feet larger than our feet ?

A breakthrough in dietary science!

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Ron Ruff said:

On May 2, 12:28 pm, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

So why is this bike SOOOOO much better?

I'm envious. I built up a new frame last Nov... went from a flexy
3.5lb Ti frame with heavy fork to 2.4lb stiff carbon frame with a
light fork. Unfortunately the maiden voyage was after a forced 2 week
layoff because of a back injury... and I was super slow. Stiff frame,
yes... I liked that part... but my first time up a local hill I was a
full 20% off the pace I'd set only a few weeks early. I figured I'd
lost some fitness, but 20%? I found myself looking at Ti frames on
ebay. Anyway, I'm still a long way from matching my performances from
last fall.

How did you lose 3kg on the bike? That seems like an incredible amount
considering that your old one was pretty good.

I steered clear of any hills! I stuck to where I and the bike had a
chance to shine. One part that stands out is an off camber left I take
that is often strewn with gravel. The approach is also blind to
oncoming traffic, and immediately after the turn, the road sweeps to
the right. I normally approach preoccupied with the potential oncoming
traffic, ready to stop if needed and take it easy in the turn, wary of
the camber and gravel and once around the second curve, resume
pedalling. This time I stormed toward the turn, confident that if a
car were coming, I could just go straight instead of turning, and I
blazed through the turn leaning well farther than I have done for 20
years, and stood and sprinted out of the turn into the next one, the
bike doing that mid-turn sprint side to side, tracking perfectly the
whole time in total control.

If I had gone to some steep hill, I'm sur ethe bike would still have
felt better than the other one, but I would have still felt slow and
not really have noticed how much the bike is better.

I was mistaken. 3kg is too much. That would be counting the
lightweight wheels I wasn't using. More like 1.9kg from lighter frame,
fork, seat, post, bars, stem, Dura Ace vs Ultegra, etc.

Joseph

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So why is this bike SOOOOO much better?

Ron Ruff said:

I'm envious. I built up a new frame last Nov... went from a flexy
3.5lb Ti frame with heavy fork to 2.4lb stiff carbon frame with a
light fork. Unfortunately the maiden voyage was after a forced 2 week
layoff because of a back injury... and I was super slow. Stiff frame,
yes... I liked that part... but my first time up a local hill I was a
full 20% off the pace I'd set only a few weeks early. I figured I'd
lost some fitness, but 20%? I found myself looking at Ti frames on
ebay. Anyway, I'm still a long way from matching my performances from
last fall.
How did you lose 3kg on the bike? That seems like an incredible amount
considering that your old one was pretty good.

Maybe it's shiny red, a known 'fast color'.
--
Andrew Muzi
  <www.yellowjersey.org/>
  Open every day since 1 April, 1971
** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**

Matte white and satin black. Now I need a new helmet! Color
coordination has a slimming effect you know...

Joseph

On May 3, 11:39 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

datakoll aka GENE daniels said:

ITS ITS ITS MAGNESIUM

Quoted message said:

now we know why joe has feet larger than our feet ?

A breakthrough in dietary science!

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

I try not to put my feet in my mouth. At least not both at the same
time.

Joseph

Quoted message said:

Colin Campbell said:

Quoted message said:

On May 2, 8:52 pm, Colin Campbell <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Are you nuts? You've had a new bike for more than 60 seconds without
> riding it? And I suppose I have to say "Happy Birthday" and
> "Congratulations on hitting your weight loss target" to a guy who can
> resist riding a new bike, too.
> Part of what you experienced might be just because it's new. What have
> you been riding? And which model Pinarello did you get, with what
> components?
Old bike was a 2005 Pinarello Galileo with Ultegra. New bike is Dogma
with Dura Ace, but the same Ultegra Velocity Deep-V wheels. I got the
frame in November, so I have been waiting for this day for a while.
The old bike is in top condition, with new chain, cables, etc so it is
functionally as new.
> You lucky dog! I've been having to get excited about new shoes that we
> were able to buy for half price on a club deal.
If I could find shoes that fit...
Joseph

Well, these shoes LOOK good; it remains to be seen how well they fit.

DMT Magnesium shoes in white (I wasn't brave enough to go for the
Petacchi yellow). I learned that these shoes are incompatible with
Campagnolo Record Pro-Fit cleats. DMT said that they'll have a fix for
next model year; meanwhile, they say they are sending me special screws
from Italy.

It took a trip to the bike shop and using some washers from some Shimano
cleats to get the cleats on. I haven't finished setting the position yet.

Sweet! Don't drag your heel on the ground stretching your calves! The
sparks could be disconcerting!

Joseph

Right! It gives "burning up the road" or "flaming out" a whole new meaning.

The shoes actually have front and rear nylon walking aids. They can be
replaced; DMT supplied the tiniest Allen wrench I've ever seen to remove
and tighten the screws.