Negative Placebo Effect and the Flu Vaccination

cathyb wrote:

CathyBrianless responds with her usual Bigotry.

That is because CathyBrainless, was born without a brain. 🙁

You have my condolences.

Why do some people report getting sick from the flu 10 days every year
when they don't get vaccinated?

I was reading more of Herbert Benson, MD. Bewnson brought the subject
of the placebo effect and the negative placebo effect up in his _Beyond
the Relaxation Response_ book.

According to Benson, physicians really suck at getting any benefit from
the positive placebo effect. Most of all, the physician's bedside
manner sucks. Further, thanks to health insurance the notion of a
family doctor, that you actually have a long term relationship with is
long gone. You go through doctors like a bottle of vitamin pills.
And, when you do have to deal with a doctor, face to face, they are
usually rude, abrupt, and down right obnoxious.

Doctor Dean Edell in his radio talk show recently said the same thing
to a complaining female caller. According to Dr. Edell, the physician
is too valuable and all important to ever hold the hands of their
patients. After all, that is what the Quacks in Mexico do.

So, it occurred to me that Benson's comments about the negative placebo
effect could be applied to the flu vaccination.

Most prescription medications work because of the positive placebo
effect. You get this magic sugar pill from your doctor and bingo you
are cured.

The constant fear mongering of the American Health Care system about
the so-called necessity of a flu vaccination is working on a lot of
people. These people believe that they actually need this worthless
vaccination in order to avoid getting something as common as the flu.
Ergo, they get sick simply because they truly believe that they will.
They have simply bought into the pack of lies being sold by the
Americian Health Care system.

I on the other hand, have great faith in natural health. Ergo, I never
come down with the flu.

In short, you science Geeks have yet to prove that the meager
effectiveness of the annual flu vaccination does not derive its power
from the negative placebo effect.
--
John Gohde,
Achieving good Nutrition is an Art, NOT a Science!

The nutrition of eating a healthy diet is a biological factor of the
mind-body connection. Weighing in at 17 web pages, The Nutrition of a
Healthy Diet ( http://naturalhealthperspective.com/food/ ) is now with
more documentation and sharper terminology than ever before.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Why do some people report getting sick from the flu 10 days every year
when they don't get vaccinated?

I was reading more of Herbert Benson, MD. Bewnson brought the subject
of the placebo effect and the negative placebo effect up in his _Beyond
the Relaxation Response_ book.

Your idea is easily refuted, if this were really needed. . Nocebo symptoms
(negative placebo-associated symptoms - they are not really an "effect"😉
are mostly subjective (i.e symptoms without observable signs or positive
tests for sickness) . They are mostly minor symptoms such as nausea,
drowsiness etc that are reported by people taking an inactive agent when
they think they are getting a drug. They are not necessarily connected to
the taking of the placebo at all, merely any symptom that the patients
report having during the test period. They may be partly due to patients
being required to focus attention on how they are feeling.

While patients might certainly report feeling "fluey" on placebo, there is
no experience of nocebo ever causing frank objective ilklnesses such as the
flu, with its high fever in combination with other characterstic features,
such as severe cough and prostration.

There is a tendency in some quarters to greatly overexaggerate the medical
usefulness of placebo reactions, especially as a fall-back justification for
unscientific and inactive treatment modalities.

I think plaacebo reactions exist and they can be quite prominent under
specific conditions. But they also have severe limitations. The vast
majority of the treatment "successes" being attributed to placebo are due to
reporting biases and spontaneous events, with practitioners superimposing
their own biases and expectations onto material that is already grossly
distorted by these and other factors.

Note well the recent study showing that acupunturists falsely claimed
success with four out of five patients who stated elsewhere that the
treatment did not help. This is reporting bias - patients telling the nice
doctor what they think he wants to hear. It helps explain how
practitioners can claim eighty per cent success rates with certain kinds of
conditions when their treatment is plain water or some other nonsense..

Peter Moran

Peter Moran said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Why do some people report getting sick from the flu 10 days every year
when they don't get vaccinated?

I was reading more of Herbert Benson, MD. Bewnson brought the subject
of the placebo effect and the negative placebo effect up in his _Beyond
the Relaxation Response_ book.

Your idea is easily refuted, if this were really needed. . Nocebo symptoms
(negative placebo-associated symptoms - they are not really an "effect"😉
are mostly subjective (i.e symptoms without observable signs or positive
tests for sickness) . They are mostly minor symptoms such as nausea,
drowsiness etc that are reported by people taking an inactive agent when
they think they are getting a drug. They are not necessarily connected to
the taking of the placebo at all, merely any symptom that the patients
report having during the test period. They may be partly due to patients
being required to focus attention on how they are feeling.

While patients might certainly report feeling "fluey" on placebo, there is
no experience of nocebo ever causing frank objective ilklnesses such as the
flu, with its high fever in combination with other characterstic features,
such as severe cough and prostration.

Number one, nothing you wrote would prevent a self-deluded person
experiencing feeling "fluey" symptoms from a negative placebo, from
complaining on these ngs about being sick for 10 days every year when
they don't get a flu vaccination. Further, these mislead persons could
easily be manipulated into getting an unnecessary flu shot based on
their imagined fluey symptoms. So, personal testimonies about the
benefits of flu vaccination means absolutely nothing. And, proves
absolutely nothing.

Second, such chronic fears generated constantly from the negative
placebo effect press of the flu industry could for psychogenic reasons
lower a person's immune resistance to the point where they would not be
able to fight off the real flu. Stress has been shown to affect the
immune system.

Ergo, the phyiscal mode of action of the negative placebo effect press
of the flu industry is a weaken immune system from chronic stress
generated from fear of catching the flu. That is why one person will
come down with the flu while another wont, assuming that both persons
have actually made contact with a flu virus.

A New Vision for Psychoimmunology?
A New Vision for Psychoimmunology. Conditioning can effect immune
response to
treat disease.
http://www.positivehealth.com/permit/Articles/Miscellaneous/willwil.htm
--
john gohde
http://naturalhealthperspective.com/resilience/mind-body-effect.html

"Mr-Natural-Health" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Moran said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Why do some people report getting sick from the flu 10 days every year
when they don't get vaccinated?

I was reading more of Herbert Benson, MD. Bewnson brought the subject
of the placebo effect and the negative placebo effect up in his _Beyond
the Relaxation Response_ book.

Your idea is easily refuted, if this were really needed. . Nocebo
symptoms
(negative placebo-associated symptoms - they are not really an "effect"😉
are mostly subjective (i.e symptoms without observable signs or positive
tests for sickness) . They are mostly minor symptoms such as nausea,
drowsiness etc that are reported by people taking an inactive agent when
they think they are getting a drug. They are not necessarily connected
to
the taking of the placebo at all, merely any symptom that the patients
report having during the test period. They may be partly due to
patients
being required to focus attention on how they are feeling.

While patients might certainly report feeling "fluey" on placebo, there
is
no experience of nocebo ever causing frank objective ilklnesses such as
the
flu, with its high fever in combination with other characterstic
features,
such as severe cough and prostration.

Number one, nothing you wrote would prevent a self-deluded person
experiencing feeling "fluey" symptoms from a negative placebo, from
complaining on these ngs about being sick for 10 days every year when
they don't get a flu vaccination.

You are wrong. Try as hard as you might - you cannot think yourself into
running a high temperature, and you have no evidence that a "non-flu" flu
such as you are postulating exists, apart from malingering..

Quoted message said:

Further, these mislead persons could
easily be manipulated into getting an unnecessary flu shot based on
their imagined fluey symptoms. So, personal testimonies about the
benefits of flu vaccination means absolutely nothing. And, proves
absolutely nothing.

I agree with the testimonial bit, not that you see testimonials in favour
of flu vaccination very often . Of course the argument would apply to
anything you think helps prevent people getting the flu..

Quoted message said:

Second, such chronic fears generated constantly from the negative
placebo effect press of the flu industry could for psychogenic reasons
lower a person's immune resistance to the point where they would not be
able to fight off the real flu. Stress has been shown to affect the
immune system.

Now you are stretching.

Quoted message said:

Ergo, the phyiscal mode of action of the negative placebo effect press
of the flu industry is a weaken immune system from chronic stress
generated from fear of catching the flu.

Oh, come on! I think most people have far more pressing sources of stress
in their lives than this.

{eter Moran

Quoted message said:

That is why one person will
come down with the flu while another wont, assuming that both persons
have actually made contact with a flu virus.

Quoted message said:

A New Vision for Psychoimmunology?
A New Vision for Psychoimmunology. Conditioning can effect immune
response to
treat disease.
http://www.positivehealth.com/permit/Articles/Miscellaneous/willwil.htm
--
john gohde
http://naturalhealthperspective.com/resilience/mind-body-effect.html

Peter Moran said:

You are wrong. Try as hard as you might - you cannot think yourself into
running a high temperature, and you have no evidence that a "non-flu" flu
such as you are postulating exists, apart from malingering..

Well, personally I do not own a thermometer for taking my temperature.
I would imagine that a lot people are in that boat. Once upon a time, I
had one. Used it a few times, but it broke. Nor, have I ever needed one
in the last few decades.

Then there is a entire new science called Psychoneuroimmunology that
was built around the concept that psychogenic stress affects the immune
system.

Hell, fear mongers cause panic. The American taxpayer might actually
end up having to pay for unnecessary ventilators at $30,000 USA a pop
for a crisis that will never happen.

Do you flu guys need a job that bad?
--
john gohde
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections. And it is not
because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill. I am ill
because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self. And the
wounds to the soul take a long, long, time, only time can help. And
patience, and a certain difficult repentance, realisation of life's
mistake, and the freeing oneself. From the endless repetition of them
mistake. Which mankind at large has chosen to sanctify."
D.H. Lawrence

I agree with you, I have never had a flu shot, and can't remember when I
last had the common flu. I am 88 years old, I was diagnose wrong twice,
while in the work force. once with a heart problem, and the second time with
cancer. I had neither. refused treatment. I haven't seen a Dr. in 15
years and I can die without one, as I am ready to meet the Saints. It is
all in the thinking well and eating properly. and not abuse everything that
feels good. [email hidden]
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Why do some people report getting sick from the flu 10 days every year
when they don't get vaccinated?

I was reading more of Herbert Benson, MD. Bewnson brought the subject
of the placebo effect and the negative placebo effect up in his _Beyond
the Relaxation Response_ book.

According to Benson, physicians really suck at getting any benefit from
the positive placebo effect. Most of all, the physician's bedside
manner sucks. Further, thanks to health insurance the notion of a
family doctor, that you actually have a long term relationship with is
long gone. You go through doctors like a bottle of vitamin pills.
And, when you do have to deal with a doctor, face to face, they are
usually rude, abrupt, and down right obnoxious.

Doctor Dean Edell in his radio talk show recently said the same thing
to a complaining female caller. According to Dr. Edell, the physician
is too valuable and all important to ever hold the hands of their
patients. After all, that is what the Quacks in Mexico do.

So, it occurred to me that Benson's comments about the negative placebo
effect could be applied to the flu vaccination.

Most prescription medications work because of the positive placebo
effect. You get this magic sugar pill from your doctor and bingo you
are cured.

The constant fear mongering of the American Health Care system about
the so-called necessity of a flu vaccination is working on a lot of
people. These people believe that they actually need this worthless
vaccination in order to avoid getting something as common as the flu.
Ergo, they get sick simply because they truly believe that they will.
They have simply bought into the pack of lies being sold by the
Americian Health Care system.

I on the other hand, have great faith in natural health. Ergo, I never
come down with the flu.

In short, you science Geeks have yet to prove that the meager
effectiveness of the annual flu vaccination does not derive its power
from the negative placebo effect.
--
John Gohde,
Achieving good Nutrition is an Art, NOT a Science!

The nutrition of eating a healthy diet is a biological factor of the
mind-body connection. Weighing in at 17 web pages, The Nutrition of a
Healthy Diet ( http://naturalhealthperspective.com/food/ ) is now with
more documentation and sharper terminology than ever before.

Genevieve A. Briggs said:

I agree with you, I have never had a flu shot, and can't remember when I
last had the common flu. I am 88 years old, I was diagnose wrong twice,
while in the work force. once with a heart problem, and the second time with
cancer. I had neither. refused treatment. I haven't seen a Dr. in 15
years and I can die without one, as I am ready to meet the Saints. It is
all in the thinking well and eating properly. and not abuse everything that
feels good. [email hidden]

How much help can anyone expect to receive from a physician who
honestly believes that it is perfectly normal and acceptable for a
person 88 years old to die?

Physicians today are more interested in their profit margins than in
exercising their brains.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Mr-Natural-Health said:

Genevieve A. Briggs said:

I agree with you, I have never had a flu shot, and can't remember when I
last had the common flu. I am 88 years old, I was diagnose wrong twice,
while in the work force. once with a heart problem, and the second time with
cancer. I had neither. refused treatment. I haven't seen a Dr. in 15
years and I can die without one, as I am ready to meet the Saints. It is
all in the thinking well and eating properly. and not abuse everything that
feels good. [email hidden]

How much help can anyone expect to receive from a physician who
honestly believes that it is perfectly normal and acceptable for a
person 88 years old to die?

How much help can one expect to receive from the functional illiterate
Gohde? Genevieve A. Briggs did not say she was a doctor.

Quoted message said:

Physicians today are more interested in their profit margins than in
exercising their brains.

You're just envious because they have brains and you just wish you
did. They mostly have teeth, too, unlike you.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
-- Alice Roosevelt Longworth

David Wright said:

Quoted message said:

How much help can anyone expect to receive from a physician who
honestly believes that it is perfectly normal and acceptable for a
person 88 years old to die?

How much help can one expect to receive from the functional illiterate
Gohde? Genevieve A. Briggs did not say she was a doctor.

Huh?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Physicians today are more interested in their profit margins than in
exercising their brains.

You're just envious because they have brains and you just wish you
did. They mostly have teeth, too, unlike you.

Not only are you off, but you are off-topic.
--
john gohde
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections. And it is not
because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill. I am ill
because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self. And the
wounds to the soul take a long, long, time, only time can help. And
patience, and a certain difficult repentance, realisation of life's
mistake, and the freeing oneself. From the endless repetition of them
mistake. Which mankind at large has chosen to sanctify."
D.H. Lawrence

Mr-Natural-Health said:

Peter Moran said:

You are wrong. Try as hard as you might - you cannot think yourself into
running a high temperature, and you have no evidence that a "non-flu" flu
such as you are postulating exists, apart from malingering..

Well, personally I do not own a thermometer for taking my temperature.
I would imagine that a lot people are in that boat. Once upon a time, I
had one. Used it a few times, but it broke. Nor, have I ever needed one
in the last few decades.

Are you telling us yet again that you never ever get sick?

Quoted message said:

Then there is a entire new science called Psychoneuroimmunology that
was built around the concept that psychogenic stress affects the immune
system.

Hell, fear mongers cause panic. The American taxpayer might actually
end up having to pay for unnecessary ventilators at $30,000 USA a pop
for a crisis that will never happen.

Do you flu guys need a job that bad?
--
john gohde
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections. And it is not
because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill. I am ill
because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self. And the
wounds to the soul take a long, long, time, only time can help. And
patience, and a certain difficult repentance, realisation of life's
mistake, and the freeing oneself. From the endless repetition of them
mistake. Which mankind at large has chosen to sanctify."
D.H. Lawrence

JohnDoe said:

Mr-Natural-Health said:

Peter Moran said:

You are wrong. Try as hard as you might - you cannot think yourself into
running a high temperature, and you have no evidence that a "non-flu" flu
such as you are postulating exists, apart from malingering..

Well, personally I do not own a thermometer for taking my temperature.
I would imagine that a lot people are in that boat. Once upon a time, I
had one. Used it a few times, but it broke. Nor, have I ever needed one
in the last few decades.

Are you telling us yet again that you never ever get sick?

I cover this in writing in my web site on 2 different web pages.

http://naturalhealthperspective.com/resilience/mind-body-effect.html
"Expectation plays a key role in the mind-body effect. Expect to be
sick all the time, and you just might end up being that way. Expect to
be normally healthy all the time, and you just might succeed."

http://naturalhealthperspective.com/contact/agenda.html
"Healthy people are not chronically sick. Rather, they are normally
healthy. And, almost never get sick. And, when they do get sick they
tend to experience a quick recovery from illness when given the
appropriate natural therapy."

Some people are born just plain negative.

You, however, are just plain negative and nasty by choice. 🙁

You have developed the personality of a constipated warthog.

You have my condolences.