Need help/advice converting SS MTB to English 3-Speed

Lobo Tommy said:

After riding a 3-speed bicycle over the weekend I simply can not go back
to riding my single speed mountain bike. It is an entirely new experience
- and one that fits me perfectly as a rider.

Here is what I would like to do:

Quoted message said:

[a bunch of hard stuff]

Get yourself a set of 26" prebuilt Shimano Nexus hub wheels. Add your
flavour of rubber. Bolt on. Run three speed shifter to bars. Add Brooks,
Fenders, bell, rubber block pedals, rack and Nitto North Road handlebars
to taste. Done. Should take two hours.

Thinking of building one myself, but I prefer basing it on 700c wheels
since they're closer to the larger size on the old Tourists. If I had a 26
inch frame I'd no doubt go your route. 😉

Sturmey Archer hubs are neato, but I wouldn't bother building a wheel
around them unless you're really hip to the looks and the retro factor. I
think they're very handsome, but I also think Shimano hubs work
brilliantly. Something to consider at least.

I'd think about getting a set of these:
http://www.bikepartsusa.com/product_info.phtml?p=01-141878

It's a Shimano 7 speed internal with Alex rims. The Alex rims are cheap,
but perfectly durable for city riding, you don't need anything fancier.
Coaster brake of course.

Search around, I've seen 26" wheelsets with the 3spd shimano hub for a
hundred bucks built on servicable alloy rims.

Hmmm, rereading your post I noticed the spacing of your dropouts.
You'll need wider for the average 3spd hub, of which you're most obviously
aware, but if the frame is steel, just cold set it to a wider spacing,
it's relatively easy and fun. 😄

No, you're not nuts btw, the humble 3 speed is the most perfect bicycle
ever conceived. Simple and practical, what's not to like. Updated with
some modern bits,it's even better.

Kudos to your decision to use rubber block pedals: they're the nicest with
street shoes. 😄

maxo said:

Lobo Tommy said:

After riding a 3-speed bicycle over the weekend I simply can not go back
to riding my single speed mountain bike. It is an entirely new
experience
- and one that fits me perfectly as a rider.

Here is what I would like to do:

Quoted message said:

[a bunch of hard stuff]

Get yourself a set of 26" prebuilt Shimano Nexus hub wheels. Add your
flavour of rubber. Bolt on. Run three speed shifter to bars. Add Brooks,
Fenders, bell, rubber block pedals, rack and Nitto North Road handlebars
to taste. Done. Should take two hours.

Thinking of building one myself, but I prefer basing it on 700c wheels
since they're closer to the larger size on the old Tourists. If I had a
26
inch frame I'd no doubt go your route. 😉

Sturmey Archer hubs are neato, but I wouldn't bother building a wheel
around them unless you're really hip to the looks and the retro factor. I
think they're very handsome, but I also think Shimano hubs work
brilliantly. Something to consider at least.

I'd think about getting a set of these:
http://www.bikepartsusa.com/product_info.phtml?p=01-141878

It's a Shimano 7 speed internal with Alex rims. The Alex rims are cheap,
but perfectly durable for city riding, you don't need anything fancier.
Coaster brake of course.

Search around, I've seen 26" wheelsets with the 3spd shimano hub for a
hundred bucks built on servicable alloy rims.

Hmmm, rereading your post I noticed the spacing of your dropouts.
You'll need wider for the average 3spd hub, of which you're most
obviously
aware, but if the frame is steel, just cold set it to a wider spacing,
it's relatively easy and fun. 😄

No, you're not nuts btw, the humble 3 speed is the most perfect bicycle
ever conceived. Simple and practical, what's not to like. Updated with
some modern bits,it's even better.

Kudos to your decision to use rubber block pedals: they're the nicest
with
street shoes. 😄

My two cents is not to discount the Sturmey-Archer hubs. I rode them into
the ground when I was a kid in Illinois and never broke one or ever heard
of one breaking. You kind of get used to that click...click...click when
the gear train is working. I miss it. 21 speeds just aren't nostalgia
material.

--
Bill (not always politically correct) Baka

(Lobo Tommy) said:

After riding a 3-speed bicycle over the weekend I simply can not go
back to riding my single speed mountain bike. It is an entirely new
experience - and one that fits me perfectly as a rider.

Here is what I would like to do:

I have a Redline Monocog Single Speed mountain bike. Because of it's
BMX genes it only takes 110mm hubs. According to Sturmey Archers
website they sell a 110mm 3 speed hub(!). So here is the plan:

- New wheels with Sturmey Archer 3-speed 110mm hub on the rear
- Replace stock pedals with MKS Rubber Pedals with Reflectors
- Replace flat bar with Nitto Aluminum North Road Bars and Raleigh
Grips
- New tires likely a 26x1.5" semi-slick
- a Kickstand
- if possible, fenders and a rear rack
- Add a Brooks B67 springer saddle for a comfy upright position

So here are the questions:

1. Am I insane?

IMO, no. You may get some strange looks, but so what?

Quoted message said:

2. What type of rims/spokes would go well with this?

Use your current rims. Spokes? Unless you've got a major weight
issue to address, just about any should work fine in that application.

Quoted message said:

3. I don't think the Monocog came with eyelets for fenders or a rack.
Is it feasable to drill these in or are their alternatives for this
situation?

Now, that could be a problem. The SA hub's axle has a limited amount
of extra reach, and might allow you to sandwich in a rack that's
designed to mount that way, but if the dropouts are thick (and many
aluminum ones are), then you've got a bit of a challenge. I'd consult
the lbs for help.

Quoted message said:

4. Anything else I can add to make this a bit more 'English'?

A generator-powered light set, a bell, a fully enclosed chain guard,
and one of the useless rear wheel locks that's about as secure as
asking the wino in front of the store to watch your bike while you
shop. (I have an English roadster out back, you see...)

Of course, it won't be really English without 700C or 27" rims, but
there are some concessions that will just have to be made.

Quoted message said:

Recommendations on gearing?

Start with the front chainring that you have now. Swap to a different
one only if experience indicates the need.

Quoted message said:

5. The Monocogs BMX genes give it a LONG seat tube. What kind of stem
set up should I be looking at to get those handle bars in the right
position?

Whatever it takes to put it where you prefer, but the classic location
is about one to three inches above the seat.

Of course, if you were to cast around at the local thrift stores a
bit, I bet you'd come up with an English roadster in good shape before
very long...probably for about 20 to 35 dollars. I've seen lots of
them at the local Goodwill stores. They usually just need lube and
tires to make them useful.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Bill Baka said:

My two cents is not to discount the Sturmey-Archer hubs. I rode them into
the ground when I was a kid in Illinois and never broke one or ever heard
of one breaking. You kind of get used to that click...click...click when
the gear train is working. I miss it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm the proud owner of a '73 rod brake Tourist. 😄

It's never let me down, and I do like the click click too.

(hint for Sturmey Archer newbies: use motor oil or similar to get that
proper nice click, thinner oil just won't do)

I've also put tens of thousands of miles on a newer Shimano unit.

Both are great. One's historic and reliable, the other shifts a tad
smoother and is also bulletfproof. I do hate the Shimano grip shifter
though--the old style thumb rocker shifter for the nexus is very nice and
that's what I recommend--you can use it with groovy old grips.

A Sturmey might be cheaper even if you have the wheel built for you around
it.

So many options. 😄 I'm a fan of most internal hubs. 😄

Speaking of three speed type uprights:

One thing I like to do, is to use drop bar brake levers on North Road
style bars--the cable-exit-top style, place them further in on the curve,
and wrap the bars with cork tape for more hand positions. I picked that up
from some Swedish bikes in the eighties--though they used crappier tape of
course. 🙂

Lobo Tommy said:

Quoted message said:

I have a Redline Monocog Single Speed mountain bike. Because of it's
BMX genes it only takes 110mm hubs. According to Sturmey Archers
website they sell a 110mm 3 speed hub(!). So here is the plan:

- New wheels with Sturmey Archer 3-speed 110mm hub on the rear
- Replace stock pedals with MKS Rubber Pedals with Reflectors
- Replace flat bar with Nitto Aluminum North Road Bars and Raleigh
Grips
- New tires likely a 26x1.5" semi-slick
- a Kickstand
- if possible, fenders and a rear rack
- Add a Brooks B67 springer saddle for a comfy upright position

Quoted message said:

2. What type of rims/spokes would go well with this?

A usually-reliable source answered:

Quoted message said:

Use your current rims.

Nope. Pretty sure the bike comes with 32 spoke wheels, but
Sturmey-Archer has never made a 32 hole rear hub. Current ones are 36
or 28. There are a lot of older 40 hole ones around too.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3. I don't think the Monocog came with eyelets for fenders or a rack.
Is it feasable to drill these in or are their alternatives for this
situation?

Shouldn't be difficult in back, might be an issue in front. Some folks
use Zip ties to mount fender stays.

Quoted message said:

Of course, it won't be really English without 700C or 27" rims, but
there are some concessions that will just have to be made.

700c is EXTREMELY un-English, actually. Most British 3-speeds used 590
mm (26 x 1 3/8), but the MonoCog has cantilever brakes, so it would be
asking for trouble to use anything but the 559 mm (26 x decimal) size it
was built for.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Recommendations on gearing?

The MonoCog comes geared very low, with a 32 tooth chainring.

The smallest readily available sprocket for an internal-gear hub is 14
teeth, which would give you a 43 inch low and a 76 inch high gear, a bit
on the low side overall.

It is possible to modify a Shimano cassette sprocket to fit, permitting
you to make a usable 12 or 13 tooth sprocket.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

5. The Monocogs BMX genes give it a LONG seat tube. What kind of stem
set up should I be looking at to get those handle bars in the right
position?

Whatever it takes to put it where you prefer, but the classic location
is about one to three inches above the seat.

Of course, if you were to cast around at the local thrift stores a
bit, I bet you'd come up with an English roadster in good shape before
very long...probably for about 20 to 35 dollars. I've seen lots of
them at the local Goodwill stores. They usually just need lube and
tires to make them useful.

An anonymous poster suggested:

Quoted message said:

Get yourself a set of 26" prebuilt Shimano Nexus hub wheels.

Nope, this won't fit the 110 spacing of the Mono Cog. This is a steel
frame, so it theoretically could be spread wider, but it is a VERY heavy
duty, BMX type frame, and would likely require a LOT of force to
re-space it--I woud advise against trying.

Sheldon "http://sheldonbrown.com/english" Brown
+------------------------------------------------+
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+------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

maxo <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hmmm, rereading your post I noticed the spacing of your dropouts.
You'll need wider for the average 3spd hub, of which you're most obviously
aware, but if the frame is steel, just cold set it to a wider spacing,
it's relatively easy and fun. 😄

Hmmm... the Monocog frame is 110mm spacing, while the Nexus hub is
135mm spacing. Once the frame's widened, the dropouts will need to be
realigned, which promises to be a bear:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/redline-monocog.html

*I'd* consider it, but only with a fair amount of time to insure that
the procedure results in an aligned frame.

I think the OP's original plan (OP-OP?) is quite practical. If the
newer Sturmey-Archer S-RF3 hub is available in 110mm over-locknut
spacing (ask Sheldon), I think the setup will be the bee's knees.

Jeff

Jeff Wills said:

Hmmm... the Monocog frame is 110mm spacing, while the Nexus hub is 135mm
spacing. Once the frame's widened, the dropouts will need to be realigned,
which promises to be a bear:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/redline-monocog.html

*I'd* consider it, but only with a fair amount of time to insure that the
procedure results in an aligned frame.

Apparently that's a really stout frame so respacings not an option.

I've cold set my current ride and realigned the dropouts by eye, took
about an hour. Some string and a ruler worked just fine to keep everything
straight. It ain't hard at all, at least on an old racer. 🙂

Sheldon Brown said:

Quoted message said:

Of course, it won't be really English without 700C or 27" rims, but
there are some concessions that will just have to be made.

700c is EXTREMELY un-English, actually. Most British 3-speeds used 590
mm (26 x 1 3/8), but the MonoCog has cantilever brakes, so it would be
asking for trouble to use anything but the 559 mm (26 x decimal) size it
was built for.

I've seen quite a lot of very used older Euro-origin 27" 3-speed stuff
coming through of late, though you're correct that the 26x1 3/8" is
even more common. I've been watching the specs for the
current-production English-market bikes, though, and the 700C has
replaced the 27" for the typical Gents' bike, as evidenced by the
models that Raleigh (and others) have in their catalogs. My personal
"English" bike (It's a Puch Rugby Sport, which is certainly aimed at
the English market) has 27" rims.

FWIW, on one occasion, I slipped EA3-rim wheels into a frame that was
built for 26" 559-rim units, but it does not always work. The one
that was a success had the old cheap side-pull calipers with a huge
range of radial position adjustment for the pads. That size of wheel
*would* make it "even more English", but I think that if even if it
worked for that frame (which, as you note, due to the canti brakes it
most likely would not), I'd stay with the 559 rim size to keep the
greater tire selection it affords.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Recommendations on gearing?

The MonoCog comes geared very low, with a 32 tooth chainring.

Yeesh. Well, that would not be too useful. And in thinking about it,
the better choice would (as you suggested) be to swap up to a 44 front
ring and get the chain length matched to that so that links would not
have to be added later when the inevitable swap became needed.

Quoted message said:

The smallest readily available sprocket for an internal-gear hub is 14
teeth, which would give you a 43 inch low and a 76 inch high gear, a bit
on the low side overall.

It is possible to modify a Shimano cassette sprocket to fit, permitting
you to make a usable 12 or 13 tooth sprocket.

If you get a chance to put up details on that, I know someone who
would appreciate them. (A 'bent with a chainring clearance problem is
involved.)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Get yourself a set of 26" prebuilt Shimano Nexus hub wheels.

Nope, this won't fit the 110 spacing of the Mono Cog. This is a steel
frame, so it theoretically could be spread wider, but it is a VERY heavy
duty, BMX type frame, and would likely require a LOT of force to
re-space it--I woud advise against trying.

And I'll add that one must at present be wary of reading too much into
the Nexus name when shopping on eBay, as there's a seller who is
trying to unload a bunch of Nexus-roller-brake *freehub* 7-speed
wheels and hubs at the moment. The pictures are a bit dark, and the
incautious buyer who doesn't read the description completely (where
the seller does, in fact, say that these are not internally geared)
could wind up with a nasty surprise.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Lobo Tommy said:

I have a Redline Monocog Single Speed mountain bike

and so does this guy, now with a Nexus 8-speed:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7295&item=7114850885&rd=1

apparently it can be done--perhaps you can contact the seller and ask how
they did it?

Thanks for the help everyone! This is certainly going to be a fun
project! :o)

I don't have webspace yet, but I will be sure to take step by step
pictures and put them up some place.

Werehatrack said:

I've been watching the specs for the
current-production English-market bikes, though, and the 700C has
replaced the 27" for the typical Gents' bike, as evidenced by the
models that Raleigh (and others) have in their catalogs. My personal
"English" bike (It's a Puch Rugby Sport, which is certainly aimed at
the English market) has 27" rims.

Certainly for tourists the 700c is now common, 27" has not been
mainstream for a long time, and it's often seen on hybrids as well,
but the largest manufacturer of tandems in the UK, who also make
tourers, have gone over almost exclusively to 559.

This is not to disagree, merely to note in passing.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

maxo <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Lobo Tommy said:

I have a Redline Monocog Single Speed mountain bike

and so does this guy, now with a Nexus 8-speed:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7295&item=7114850885&rd=1

apparently it can be done--perhaps you can contact the seller and ask how
they did it?

I just sent the seller an e-mail. I'm still interested in strictly a
3-speed SA set up but this has my interest peaked! I wonder if he had
some wider drop outs brazed on? Hmm....

you know? said:

Certainly for tourists the 700c is now common, 27" has not been
mainstream for a long time, and it's often seen on hybrids as well,
but the largest manufacturer of tandems in the UK, who also make
tourers, have gone over almost exclusively to 559.

This is not to disagree, merely to note in passing.

It's really hard to ignore the wide variety of tires and wheels
available in 559; I suspect that the preponderance of choices is
driving that change more than anything else. This is yet another
example of how things can change in unexpected ways; thirty years ago,
I recall that the prevailing opinion was that the 26" balloon tire was
a dinosaur which would soon completely vanish from the marketplace
except for a cheap examples on a few low-end kids' bikes. Time
passed, Gary Fisher and his cohorts breathed new life into the size,
and the market changed to match the new demand.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Werehatrack said:

It's really hard to ignore the wide variety of tires and wheels
available in 559; I suspect that the preponderance of choices is
driving that change more than anything else.

And, in the case of Thorn, tests they did which showed that the 26"
wheel is stronger. I have to say that the 48-spoke 26" Sun Rhynos on
my Thorn triplet seem to be very strong indeed :-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Lobo Tommy said:

[...]
1. Am I insane?
[...]

Not necessarily insane, but certainly puzzling. What precisely do you
find so interesting with the 3-speed Sturmey-Archer ? To me, it only
reminds me of the other kid's bikes 30 years ago, with only 1 or 2 gears
working out of 3. I've always considered myself fortunate to move
directly from single-speed to luxury 5-speed, but it looks like maybe I
missed something ?

Jacques,
trying very hard to stay open minded, but to which extent ?

maxo <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Jeff Wills said:

Hmmm... the Monocog frame is 110mm spacing, while the Nexus hub is 135mm
spacing. Once the frame's widened, the dropouts will need to be realigned,
which promises to be a bear:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/redline-monocog.html

*I'd* consider it, but only with a fair amount of time to insure that the
procedure results in an aligned frame.

Apparently that's a really stout frame so respacings not an option.

I've cold set my current ride and realigned the dropouts by eye, took
about an hour. Some string and a ruler worked just fine to keep everything
straight. It ain't hard at all, at least on an old racer. 🙂

Done there, been that. I've aligned big-tube steel MTB's without too
much difficulty. One master mechanic I knew took a twist out of a
Cannondale (it was delivered that way) with a sturdy alignment table
and a lot of leverage.

"Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I
shall move the world." -- Archimedes

Jeff

[email hidden] (Lobo Tommy) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I just sent the seller an e-mail. I'm still interested in strictly a
3-speed SA set up but this has my interest peaked! I wonder if he had
some wider drop outs brazed on? Hmm....

I'll bet you a dollar (Canadian) that no welding or brazing work has
been done on that machine. For all the stount construction of the
Monocog, it's still easier to widen the dropouts than it is to cut out
the old and weld in the new.

Jeff

[email hidden] (Jeff Wills) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
<cut>

Quoted message said:

"Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I
shall move the world." -- Archimedes

Jeff

Although this is much quoted, I believe (please prove me wrong) that
it compounds two separate sources (Plutarch's life of Marcellus, and
the much later Book of histories by John Tzetzes), the first of wrich
reports Archimedes writings:

<font face=symbol>
ARCIMHDHS ... EGRAYEN WS TH DOQEISH DUNAMEI TO DOQEN BAROS KINHSAI
DUNATON ESTI, KAI NEANIEUSAMENOS, WS FASI, RWMH THS APODEIXEWS EIPEN
WS, EI GHN EICEN ETERAN, EKINHSEN AN TAUTHN METABAS EIS EKEINHN
</font>

*apologies to those without a symbol font that will render the above
into the appropriate alphabet.

while the second is a much briefer quotation in direct speech
<font face=symbol>
PA BW KAI CARISTIWNI TAN GAN KINHSW PASAN
</font>

So that your quote is a synthesis of the two, chopped down to make it
more snappy and harmonised as reported speech.

This is perhaps what Archimedes should have said, but your gracing it
with quotation marks is, in my view, adding a spurious claim to
accuracy.

http://www.mcs.drexel.edu/~crorres/Archimedes/Lever/LeverQuotes.html
is a good source for the development of this "quotation" into its
accepted form.

Andrew Webster

[email hidden] (Jeff Wills) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Lobo Tommy) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I just sent the seller an e-mail. I'm still interested in strictly a
3-speed SA set up but this has my interest peaked! I wonder if he had
some wider drop outs brazed on? Hmm....

I'll bet you a dollar (Canadian) that no welding or brazing work has
been done on that machine. For all the stount construction of the
Monocog, it's still easier to widen the dropouts than it is to cut out
the old and weld in the new.

Jeff

But how are they widened? If you are using a machine to do it while
you insert the hub, what happens when you get a flat on the trail
where you need to take the wheel off? I just picture it in my head of
the Monocog practically spitting it out with no way to get it back in
manually.. 🙂