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NBC - Kerry really won

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Road Cycling
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8 November 2004
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dgk
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  1. Ok, look. I just want to let everyone here to know how much I
    appreciate your aid in my struggle to become a full time bike
    commuter. You are all now officially my friends. My best friend (a
    flesh and blood one) is actually a far right winger and one of the
    nicest people I know, if just wrong about life. We try not to talk
    politics because we end up angry.

    That said, Kerry really won. I think people really should read this
    because nothing is more important.

    -------------------------------------------

    Kerry Won
    By Greg Palast
    TomPaine.com

    Thursday 04 November 2004

    Kerry won. Here's the facts.

    I know you don't want to hear it. You can't face one more hung
    chad. But I don't have a choice. As a journalist examining that messy
    sausage called American democracy, it's my job to tell you who got the
    most votes in the deciding states. Tuesday, in Ohio and New Mexico, it
    was John Kerry.

    Most voters in Ohio thought they were voting for Kerry. CNN's exit
    poll showed Kerry beating Bush among Ohio women by 53 percent to 47
    percent. Kerry also defeated Bush among Ohio's male voters 51 percent
    to 49 percent. Unless a third gender voted in Ohio, Kerry took the
    state.

    So what's going on here? Answer: the exit polls are accurate.
    Pollsters ask, "Who did you vote for?" Unfortunately, they don't ask
    the crucial, question, "Was your vote counted?" The voters don't know.

    Here's why. Although the exit polls show that most voters in Ohio
    punched cards for Kerry-Edwards, thousands of these votes were simply
    not recorded. This was predictable and it was predicted. [See
    TomPaine.com, "An Election Spoiled Rotten," November 1.]

    Once again, at the heart of the Ohio uncounted vote game are, I'm
    sorry to report, hanging chads and pregnant chads, plus some other
    ballot tricks old and new.

    The election in Ohio was not decided by the voters but by
    something called "spoilage." Typically in the United States, about 3
    percent of the vote is voided, just thrown away, not recorded. When
    the bobble-head [censored] on the tube tell you Ohio or any state was won
    by 51 percent to 49 percent, don't you believe it ... it has never
    happened in the United States, because the total never reaches a neat
    100 percent. The television totals simply subtract out the spoiled
    vote.

    And not all vote spoil equally. Most of those votes, say every
    official report, come from African American and minority precincts.
    (To learn more, click here.)

    We saw this in Florida in 2000. Exit polls showed Gore with a
    plurality of at least 50,000, but it didn't match the official count.
    That's because the official, Secretary of State Katherine Harris,
    excluded 179,855 spoiled votes. In Florida, as in Ohio, most of these
    votes lost were cast on punch cards where the hole wasn't punched
    through completely-leaving a 'hanging chad,'-or was punched extra
    times. Whose cards were discarded? Expert statisticians investigating
    spoilage for the government calculated that 54 percent of the ballots
    thrown in the dumpster were cast by black folks. (To read the report
    from the U.S. Civil Rights Commission, click here.)

    And here's the key: Florida is terribly typical. The majority of
    ballots thrown out (there will be nearly 2 million tossed out from
    Tuesday's election) will have been cast by African American and other
    minority citizens.

    So here we go again. Or, here we don't go again. Because unlike
    last time, Democrats aren't even asking Ohio to count these cards with
    the not-quite-punched holes (called "undervotes" in the voting biz).

    Ohio is one of the last states in America to still use the
    vote-spoiling punch-card machines. And the Secretary of State of Ohio,
    J. Kenneth Blackwell, wrote before the election, the possibility of a
    close election with punch cards as the states primary voting device
    invites a Florida-like calamity.

    But this week, Blackwell, a rabidly partisan Republican, has
    warmed up to the result of sticking with machines that have a habit of
    eating Democratic votes. When asked if he feared being this year's
    Katherine Harris, Blackwell noted that Ms. Fix-it's efforts landed her
    a seat in Congress.

    Exactly how many votes were lost to spoilage this time?
    Blackwell's office, notably, won't say, though the law requires it be
    reported. Hmm. But we know that last time, the total of Ohio votes
    discarded reached a democracy-damaging 1.96 percent. The machines
    produced their typical loss-that's 110,000 votes-overwhelmingly
    Democratic.

    The Impact of Challenges

    First and foremost, Kerry was had by chads. But the Democrat
    wasn't punched out by punch cards alone. There were also the
    'challenges.' That's a polite word for the Republican Party of Ohio's
    use of an old Ku Klux Klan technique: the attempt to block thousands
    of voters of color at the polls. In Ohio, Wisconsin and Florida, the
    GOP laid plans for poll workers to ambush citizens under arcane
    laws-almost never used-allowing party-designated poll watchers to
    finger individual voters and demand they be denied a ballot. The Ohio
    courts were horrified and federal law prohibits targeting of voters
    where race is a factor in the challenge. But our Supreme Court was
    prepared to let Republicans stand in the voting booth door.

    In the end, the challenges were not overwhelming, but they were
    there. Many apparently resulted in voters getting these funky
    "provisional" ballots-a kind of voting placebo-which may or may not be
    counted. Blackwell estimates there were 175,000; Democrats say
    250,000. Pick your number. But as challenges were aimed at minorities,
    no one doubts these are, again, overwhelmingly Democratic. Count them
    up, add in the spoiled punch cards (easy to tally with the human eye
    in a recount), and the totals begin to match the exit polls; and,
    golly, you've got yourself a new president. Remember, Bush won by
    136,483 votes in Ohio.

    Enchanted State's Enchanted Vote

    Now, on to New Mexico, where a Kerry plurality-if all votes are
    counted-is more obvious still. Before the election, in TomPaine.com, I
    wrote, "John Kerry is down by several thousand votes in New Mexico,
    though not one ballot has yet been counted."

    How did that happen? It's the spoilage, stupid; and the
    provisional ballots.

    CNN said George Bush took New Mexico by 11,620 votes. Again, the
    network total added up to that miraculous, and non-existent, '100
    percent' of ballots cast.

    New Mexico reported in the last race a spoilage rate of 2.68
    percent, votes lost almost entirely in Hispanic, Native American and
    poor precincts-Democratic turf. From Tuesday's vote, assuming the same
    ballot-loss rate, we can expect to see 18,000 ballots in the spoilage
    bin.

    Spoilage has a very Democratic look in New Mexico. Hispanic voters
    in the Enchanted State, who voted more than two to one for Kerry, are
    five times as likely to have their vote spoil as a white voter.
    Counting these uncounted votes would easily overtake the Bush
    'plurality.'

    Already, the election-bending effects of spoilage are popping up
    in the election stats, exactly where we'd expect them: in heavily
    Hispanic areas controlled by Republican elections officials. Chaves
    County, in the "Little Texas" area of New Mexico, has a 44 percent
    Hispanic population, plus African Americans and Native Americans, yet
    George Bush "won" there 68 percent to 31 percent.

    I spoke with Chaves' Republican county clerk before the election,
    and he told me that this huge spoilage rate among Hispanics simply
    indicated that such people simply can't make up their minds on the
    choice of candidate for president. Oddly, these brown people drive
    across the desert to register their indecision in a voting booth.

    Now, let's add in the effect on the New Mexico tally of
    provisional ballots.

    "They were handing them out like candy," Albuquerque journalist
    Renee Blake reported of provisional ballots. About 20,000 were given
    out. Who got them?

    Santiago Juarez who ran the "Faithful Citizenship" program for the
    Catholic Archdiocese in New Mexico, told me that "his" voters, poor
    Hispanics, whom he identified as solid Kerry supporters, were handed
    the iffy provisional ballots. Hispanics were given provisional
    ballots, rather than the countable kind "almost religiously," he said,
    at polling stations when there was the least question about a voter's
    identification. Some voters, Santiago said, were simply turned away.

    Your Kerry Victory Party

    So we can call Ohio and New Mexico for John Kerry-if we count all
    the votes.

    But that won't happen. Despite the Democratic Party's pledge, the
    leadership this time gave in to racial disenfranchisement once again.
    Why? No doubt, the Democrats know darn well that counting all the
    spoiled and provisional ballots will require the cooperation of Ohio's
    Secretary of State, Blackwell. He will ultimately decide which spoiled
    and provisional ballots get tallied. Blackwell, hankering to step into
    Kate Harris' political pumps, is unlikely to permit anything close to
    a full count. Also, Democratic leadership knows darn well the media
    would punish the party for demanding a full count.

    What now? Kerry won, so hold your victory party. But make sure the
    shades are down: it may be become illegal to demand a full vote count
    under PATRIOT Act III.

    I used to write a column for the Guardian papers in London.
    Several friends have asked me if I will again leave the country. In
    light of the failure-a second time-to count all the votes, that won't
    be necessary. My country has left me.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Greg Palast, contributing editor to Harper's magazine,
    investigated the manipulation of the vote for BBC Television's
    Newsnight. The documentary, "Bush Family Fortunes," based on his New
    York Times bestseller, The Best Democracy Money Can Buy, has been
    released this month on DVD.

  2. "dgk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Ok, look. I just want to let everyone here to know how much I
    appreciate your aid in my struggle to become a full time bike
    commuter. You are all now officially my friends. My best friend (a

    (huge snip)

    No. He didn't.

    This is nothing but speculation, rumor and innuendo. And why are you
    invoking NBC in the subject line? Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see
    anything attributed to NBC. If you're trying to borrow legitimacy by
    invoking them, that's a real hoot. I thought little Katie was gonna cry
    when she had to announce that ... BUSH WON!

    Please ... get over it.

    Bob C.

  3. On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:53:08 -0500, "psycholist" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    "dgk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Ok, look. I just want to let everyone here to know how much I
    appreciate your aid in my struggle to become a full time bike
    commuter. You are all now officially my friends. My best friend (a

    (huge snip)

    No. He didn't.

    This is nothing but speculation, rumor and innuendo. And why are you
    invoking NBC in the subject line? Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see
    anything attributed to NBC. If you're trying to borrow legitimacy by
    invoking them, that's a real hoot. I thought little Katie was gonna cry
    when she had to announce that ... BUSH WON!

    Please ... get over it.

    Bob C.


    NxC is a convention in several newsgroups that stands for NO x
    CONTENT. As in No Bike Content. It enables folks to skip non-topic
    posts should they choose. Not that a statement like KERRY WON could be
    mistaken for bike content, but it is considered polite. Any
    resemblence to NBC the Network is unintentional. They would never run
    something harmful to their corporate masters.

    Is it innuendo that black voters were six times more likely to have
    their vote discarded than white voters? That was last time, I bet it
    is the same this time.

  4. "dgk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:53:08 -0500, "psycholist" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    "dgk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Ok, look. I just want to let everyone here to know how much I
    appreciate your aid in my struggle to become a full time bike
    commuter. You are all now officially my friends. My best friend (a

    (huge snip)

    No. He didn't.

    This is nothing but speculation, rumor and innuendo. And why are you
    invoking NBC in the subject line? Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see
    anything attributed to NBC. If you're trying to borrow legitimacy by
    invoking them, that's a real hoot. I thought little Katie was gonna cry
    when she had to announce that ... BUSH WON!

    Please ... get over it.

    Bob C.


    NxC is a convention in several newsgroups that stands for NO x
    CONTENT. As in No Bike Content. It enables folks to skip non-topic
    posts should they choose. Not that a statement like KERRY WON could be
    mistaken for bike content, but it is considered polite. Any
    resemblence to NBC the Network is unintentional. They would never run
    something harmful to their corporate masters.

    Is it innuendo that black voters were six times more likely to have
    their vote discarded than white voters? That was last time, I bet it
    is the same this time.

    I've been participating in this newsgroup and several other cycling-related
    ones for a decade. I've never seen NBC used as you describe. I rather
    suspect a deliberate attempt to deceive the reader into thinking NBC was
    making the claim that Kerry really won.

    And you continue to spew innuendo.

    Bob C.

  5. "dgk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Ok, look. I just want to let everyone here to know how much I
    appreciate your aid in my struggle to become a full time bike
    commuter. You are all now officially my friends. My best friend (a
    flesh and blood one) is actually a far right winger and one of the
    nicest people I know, if just wrong about life. We try not to talk
    politics because we end up angry.

    That said, Kerry really won. I think people really should read this
    because nothing is more important.


    This kind of stuff is prime example of how little the liberal radicals
    respect our form of government, they don't care how irresponsible they are
    or sound if it would help their cause. To bad their cause is going down
    deeper in the cesspool every year.

  6. "di" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:9IRjd.75171$%x.16005@okepread04...

    Quoted message said:

    This kind of stuff is prime example of how little the liberal radicals
    respect our form of government, they don't care how irresponsible they are
    or sound if it would help their cause. To bad their cause is going down
    deeper in the cesspool every year.

    Even though I didn't vote for Bush, I'm glad he won now, if for no other
    reason, just to [censored] nitwits like "dgk".

    Cheto

  7. On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:53:19 -0800, Cheto <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    "di" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:9IRjd.75171$%x.16005@okepread04...

    Quoted message said:

    This kind of stuff is prime example of how little the liberal radicals
    respect our form of government, they don't care how irresponsible they
    are
    or sound if it would help their cause. To bad their cause is going
    down
    deeper in the cesspool every year.

    Even though I didn't vote for Bush, I'm glad he won now, if for no other
    reason, just to [censored] nitwits like "dgk".

    Cheto


    Should we say that we have just elected the lesser of 2 idiots?
    Kerry just wan't that impressive. Bush will do so much damage
    that the next guy in the white house will spend his time on
    damage control.
    Bill Baka

  8. "dgk" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:


    That said, Kerry really won. I think people really should read this
    because nothing is more important.

    The first incorrecct assumption
    "the exit polls are accurate."

    Everything falls apart from there.

    Pete

  9. On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:28:59 -0800, Bill Baka <[email hidden]> wrote
    in message <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    Should we say that we have just elected the lesser of 2 idiots?

    But possibly the greater of two evils. Time will tell. Oh, look, it
    already has! Still, the survivalists and nuclear shelter industries
    will be glad of the boost :-)

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

  10. dgk said:


    ... Kerry really won. I think people really should read


    this

    Quoted message said:

    because nothing is more important.

    We lost. Feel sad, plot next time, but get on with your
    life. A bike ride might help.

  11. "dgk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    That said, Kerry really won. I think people really should read this
    because nothing is more important.


    Damn, that was funny. Can you find another humorous story to post?

  12. Pete said:

    "dgk" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:


    That said, Kerry really won. I think people really should read this
    because nothing is more important.

    The first incorrecct assumption
    "the exit polls are accurate."

    Interesting, as so far, the only place the exit polls appear
    to have been wrong were precincts that had paperless
    voting, and were accurate is precincts that had paper
    ballots..

    Just a coincidence, I'm sure.

    --

    -TTFN

    -Steven

  13. <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:
    Pete said:

    "dgk" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:


    That said, Kerry really won. I think people really should read this
    because nothing is more important.

    The first incorrecct assumption
    "the exit polls are accurate."

    Interesting, as so far, the only place the exit polls appear
    to have been wrong were precincts that had paperless
    voting, and were accurate is precincts that had paper
    ballots..

    Just a coincidence, I'm sure.

    So you really think, with thousands of lawyers from both sides waiting to
    pounce, several different kinds of electronic voting machines, many more
    types of non-electronic machines, Republican and Democratic poll workers,
    inspectors from the UN...with all that...the Republicans managed to inject
    enough ghost votes into the system to change the outcome of the election?
    And do this completely (so far) undetected.

    Really...

    Pete

  14. Pete said:


    "dgk" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:


    That said, Kerry really won. I think people really should read this
    because nothing is more important.

    The first incorrecct assumption
    "the exit polls are accurate."

    Everything falls apart from there.

    Like tens of thousands of Democrat-sponsored lawyers were gonna miss
    something like "dgk" claimed. Heh.

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $695 ti frame

  15. Quoted message said:

    dgk [email hidden]

    Quoted message said:

    NxC is a convention in several newsgroups that stands for NO x
    CONTENT. As in No Bike Content. It enables folks to skip non-topic
    posts should they choose. Not that a statement like KERRY WON could be
    mistaken for bike content, but it is considered polite. Any
    resemblence to NBC the Network is unintentional. They would never run
    something harmful to their corporate masters.

    ---snip---

    An "unintentional resemblance", huh? I'll tell you what I sometimes tell
    soon-to-be defendants- "I see. You were man enough to commit the crime but
    you're not man enough to admit it, you want to try to lie your way out of
    trouble. Okay, I can deal with that. Do me a favor though. If you are going to
    lie at least make it a *good* lie and not the weakass [censored] you're talking now."

    Quoted message said:

    Is it innuendo that black voters were six times more likely to have
    their vote discarded than white voters? That was last time, I bet it
    is the same this time.

    No, that's not innuendo. It's an assertion, one you've made without offering a
    shred of evidence.

    Regards,
    Bob Hunt

  16. Quoted message said:

    [email hidden]

    Quoted message said:

    So you really think, with thousands of lawyers from both sides waiting to
    pounce, several different kinds of electronic voting machines, many more
    types of non-electronic machines, Republican and Democratic poll workers,
    inspectors from the UN...with all that...the Republicans managed to inject
    enough ghost votes into the system to change the outcome of the election?
    And do this completely (so far) undetected.

    Let's accept as fact for a moment that this really *did* happen. The massive
    undetected and unprovable vote fraud being alleged leads to the inescapable
    conclusion that the Republicans were able to outsmart the best people the
    Democrats could find to ferret out vote fraud. Leaving aside differences in
    political philosophies for a moment, do we really want to be governed by people
    too dumb to detect vote fraud on the widepread and massive scale necessary to
    account for Bush's clear win? If they can't even manage to make sure the vote
    isn't cooked, what chance at all do they have of making smart decisions on the
    much more complex matters of day-to-day governance?

    Regards,
    Bob Hunt

  17. In article <[email hidden]>,

    (Hunrobe) said:

    Let's accept as fact for a moment that this really *did* happen. The massive
    undetected and unprovable vote fraud being alleged leads to the inescapable
    conclusion that the Republicans were able to outsmart the best people the
    Democrats could find to ferret out vote fraud. Leaving aside differences in
    political philosophies for a moment, do we really want to be governed by
    people
    too dumb to detect vote fraud on the widepread and massive scale necessary to
    account for Bush's clear win? If they can't even manage to make sure the vote
    isn't cooked, what chance at all do they have of making smart decisions on
    the
    much more complex matters of day-to-day governance?

    I'm not saying that fraud has happened, but consider what some experts
    have discussed as a possibility. With electronic voting machines that
    have NO paper record (some do print a copy so there is a hard-copy
    back-up), it is possible for the vote to be changed and NOBODY would be
    able to detect it. It doesn't matter how many pollwatchers or attorneys
    you have, it is not the type of fraud that is visible.

    This fraud could theoretically happen one of two ways. First, it can be
    written into the code that operates the machines. This can be done by a
    rogue employee of the company who manufactures the equipment or, of
    course, it could be done as part of a wider conspiracy. Second, it can
    be done by hacking into the computers that tabulate the votes. This had
    been done quite easily in early testing. It's not clear whether the
    machines used in the 2004 election had updated software to help protect
    against this problem or not.

    Again, I'm not making the argument that fraud occurred. I'm just
    pointing out that it could happen and if it did, it would happen in a
    manner that would likely never be detected. The real problem here is
    that even if fraud NEVER occurs, people will question the credibility if
    such a system. There is no longer a method to verify the vote. We have
    to trust the government and its contractors, and that's not a good thing.

    Todd Kuzma

  18. Pete said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:
    Pete said:

    "dgk" <[email hidden]> wrote
    >
    > That said, Kerry really won. I think people really should read this
    > because nothing is more important.

    The first incorrecct assumption
    "the exit polls are accurate."

    Interesting, as so far, the only place the exit polls appear
    to have been wrong were precincts that had paperless
    voting, and were accurate is precincts that had paper
    ballots..

    Just a coincidence, I'm sure.

    So you really think, with thousands of lawyers from both sides waiting to
    pounce, several different kinds of electronic voting machines, many more
    types of non-electronic machines, Republican and Democratic poll workers,
    inspectors from the UN...with all that...the Republicans managed to inject
    enough ghost votes into the system to change the outcome of the election?
    And do this completely (so far) undetected.

    Really...

    Hmmm... So tell me, why won't they allow independent review of the source
    code for the voting machines? They have a truckload of lawyers crying
    "proprietary" software, trade secret. What the hell could possibly be
    a trade secret about software to register votes? It should be a simple
    counting program, if it's honest.

    And as far as having to "inject" ghost votes, they don't need to have
    a physical presence to do that, nobody but the company that supplied
    the computers has seen the software, so who knows what it does?

    --

    -TTFN

    -Steven

  19. Hunrobe said:
    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden]

    Quoted message said:

    So you really think, with thousands of lawyers from both sides waiting to
    pounce, several different kinds of electronic voting machines, many more
    types of non-electronic machines, Republican and Democratic poll workers,
    inspectors from the UN...with all that...the Republicans managed to inject
    enough ghost votes into the system to change the outcome of the election?
    And do this completely (so far) undetected.

    Let's accept as fact for a moment that this really *did* happen. The massive
    undetected and unprovable vote fraud being alleged leads to the inescapable
    conclusion that the Republicans were able to outsmart the best people the
    Democrats could find to ferret out vote fraud. Leaving aside differences in
    political philosophies for a moment, do we really want to be governed by people
    too dumb to detect vote fraud on the widepread and massive scale necessary to
    account for Bush's clear win? If they can't even manage to make sure the vote
    isn't cooked, what chance at all do they have of making smart decisions on the
    much more complex matters of day-to-day governance?

    Here's a question for you, why are the companies that own the non paper
    ballot voting machines refusing to allow an audit of the source code? Do
    you think making a program that counts things is such a national security
    secret that no one should be allowed to look at the source code?

    Or do you prefer to be ruled, oh, sorry, governed by people who
    obstruct vote verification?

    --

    -TTFN

    -Steven

  20. In article <[email hidden]>, sonicechoes-
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    So what's going on here? Answer: the exit polls are accurate.
    Pollsters ask, "Who did you vote for?" Unfortunately, they don't ask
    the crucial, question, "Was your vote counted?" The voters don't know.

    Two thoughts on this.

    1. Like some 2/3 of voters in my state, I'm ineligible for exit polls --
    I vote by mail. Until exit pollsters find a way to harass and annoy
    people like me, their polls will not be accurate or reliable.

    2. When I was prey for exit pollsters, I lied to them. I still do lie to
    pollsters who call me at home.

    Why?

    Because an election isn't a horse race, it's a political decision, and
    every second of news coverage devoted to daily fluctuations in poll
    numbers is worse than useless -- it detracts from time spent discussing
    the issues, and it encourages undecideds to vote based on herd momentum
    rather than either taking the time to understand the issues or doing the
    responsible democratic thing and not voting.

    --
    [email hidden] is Joshua Putnam
    <http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
    Books for Bicycle Mechanics and Tinkerers:
    <http://www.phred.org/~josh/bike/bikebooks.html>

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