My wheels are making me nuts! ;)

Daniel Crispin said:

I purchased by bike a month ago. I had to get my spokes re-
tightened

You needed it trued (if it was out of true, as in, the rim
was wobbly but the hub was straight), or you needed the
spokes re-tensioned (if they were even with eachother but
not tight enough), or both.

Quoted message said:

One of the shop I went to told me that because I was heavy,
my wheels will need to be adjusted often. Also told me that
my spokes were low quality and that made it worth. He
wanted to sell me a new wheel for the back

Sounds like the quality issue is not the spokes, but rather,
the person (or machine) who built the wheel. For loads of
discussion on this issue, go to groups.google.com and search
the rec.bicycles.tech group. The spokes where probably never
properly tensioned, and the wheel was not "stress relieved",
which is an important step in good wheelbuilding but not so
commonly practiced.

It could also be the wrong wheel for you; if you're heavy,
you probably should have 32 spokes or more. Even so, I'd
suspect a bad build as a contributing factor.

Quoted message said:

Does this make any sense? He offered to sell me a Deore
wheel with Anodized spokes and dual walled frame. Pretty
similar to what I have except for the spokes. 100 CAN$.

I wouldn't buy another wheel from the same shop. Try to find
a local shop with a _good_ wheelbuilder, or locate one
elsewhere who can build you a wheel and mail it to you.
There are a few good wheelbuilders on rec.bicycles.tech who
post daily.
--
Rick Onanian

Well, I weigh 240 lbs and my bike is in the shop...

I've broken a spoke on the rear wheel twice. After the
second one I rode 100 lbs before I found a loose spoke on
the rear wheel. So now the bike shop is rebuilding my rear
wheel (which they should have done after the first one since
this is a new bike bought last fall). They've had my bike
since Monday, and I was supposed to pick it up today. I call
them on the way home to see if it is ready, but I find they
don't have black spokes. I don't want silver spokes as I may
sell those wheels.

So, I'm going to have a custom set of wheels built (not by
the bike shop). I would do it myself but I'd lose too much
time from riding while trying to learn. I'll learn after I
get riding again. I just wish I had my bike -- it looks like
I won't get to ride this weekend, either.

I must be free of the LBS for the mechanical needs of my
bike.

Somehow, I don't think the problem is just the spokes, but
I'm a noob, so don't listen to me.

Daniel Crispin wrote:
:: I need some advice here.
::
:: I purchased by bike a month ago. I had to get my spokes
:: re-tightened (forget that word, my first language is
:: French and I have no idea for the correct english term)
:: about a week ago. Today as I was riding the bike started
:: making the same racket noise that it did before I had my
:: wheels fixed.
::
:: One of the shop I went to told me that because I was
:: heavy, my wheels will need to be adjusted often. Also
:: told me that my spokes were low quality and that made it
:: worth. He wanted to sell me a new wheel for the back
:: because that is where most of my weight is when I ride.
:: Said the rest of my wheel is good quality but the spokes
:: are not. I wanted to have the spokes replaced but he said
:: it would cost more than purchase a new wheel entirelly...
::
:: Does this make any sense? He offered to sell me a Deore
:: wheel with Anodized spokes and dual walled frame. Pretty
:: similar to what I have except for the spokes. 100 CAN$.

Roger Zoul said:

So now the bike shop is rebuilding my rear wheel (which
they should have done after the first one since this is a
new bike bought last fall). They've had my bike since
Monday <snip>

They need the whole bike just to rebuild the wheel?

They couldn't loan you a wheel to ride while they rebuild
it? I mean, for all your trouble and everything...

Quoted message said:

Somehow, I don't think the problem is just the spokes, but
I'm a noob, so don't listen to me.

The OP's problem is not cheap spokes.
--
Rick Onanian

Rick Onanian wrote:
:: On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 18:11:38 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
:: <[email hidden]> wrote:
::: So now the bike shop is rebuilding my rear wheel (which
::: they should have done after the first one since this is
::: a new bike bought last fall). They've had my bike since
::: Monday <snip>
::
:: They need the whole bike just to rebuild the wheel?
::
:: They couldn't loan you a wheel to ride while they rebuild
:: it? I mean, for all your trouble and everything...

Hmm.....didn't think to ask that til now....thanks...

::
::: Somehow, I don't think the problem is just the spokes,
::: but I'm a noob, so don't listen to me.
::
:: The OP's problem is not cheap spokes.
:: --
:: Rick Onanian

On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 20:06:17 -0400, "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Rick Onanian wrote:
:: On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 18:11:38 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
:: <[email hidden]> wrote:
::: So now the bike shop is rebuilding my rear wheel (which
::: they should have done after the first one since this is
::: a new bike bought last fall). They've had my bike since
::: Monday <snip>
::
:: They need the whole bike just to rebuild the wheel?
::
:: They couldn't loan you a wheel to ride while they
:: rebuild it? I mean, for all your trouble and
:: everything...

Hmm.....didn't think to ask that til now....thanks...

Doesn't that just drive ya nuts, though? You'd think they'd
suggest that, at least to a good customer.

Wish I had a LBS like Mike J's around here. Read his site
from cover-to-cover if you get a chance - lots of good tips
on stuff like this.

(Heck if I hadn't read this ng, I'd have paid about $85 more
for my Trek last month.)

Good luck and wishes for a fast repair and return of your
steed, man.

-B

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

He offered to sell me a Deore wheel with Anodized spokes
and dual walled frame. Pretty similar to what I have
except for

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

spokes. 100 CAN$.

You might want to buy stronger wheels, but I wouldn't buy
them from the same guys that sold you the bike 😄 😉

What do you mean by stronger wheels? Deore is high-midrange
and dual walled (or what ever it is called in english) is
the best frame you can get. I have talking tech because all
my tech books are in french and I can't explain easilly...

Quoted message said:

You can spend about $200 usd to get a decent set of
handbuilt wheels or you can shop around--I recently saw a
nice pair of Ritchey 36 spoke offset rims with DT spokes
and Deore hubs at the local REI on sale for less than
$100usd. Having two complete sets of wheels with different
types of tires is very luxurious if you can afford it.

When you say hand build, do you mean putting the wheel
together or forging the rim? I really doubt a rim can be
forged by hand better than a machine can do it. If you
are talking about putting the wheel together, then yes I
agree it might be better done by hand. But I don't want
to spend 200$ on a wheel when I have one that is only a
month old and is supposed to be of good quality. If the
spokes are the problem it might be worth it to replace
them. 36$ plus labour will cost me maybe 60 CAN$. Not bad
compared to 200 US$.

Quoted message said:

Another poster mentioned 32 spoke wheels--I'm going to
recommend 36 spoke wheels if you have a choice. Unless
you're racing, you won't feel the difference and not
having to true them very often is nice.

Well that is what I have... I counted 35 but I must have
missed one 😉

Daniel Crispin said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

He offered to sell me a Deore wheel with Anodized spokes
and dual walled frame. Pretty similar to what I have
except for

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

spokes. 100 CAN$.

Well that is what I have... I counted 35 but I must have
missed one 😉

<lots of snips> You have a brand new wheel with 36 spokes.
You probably need a decent bike mechanic to re-tension your
wheel. It's just like a rebuild. Should cost no more than
$40 CAD. Saying that, you didn't say how much you weigh, or
if you are beating the rim on curbs, etc. I have gone thru
some wheel truing and tensioning problems in the past few
years. If the rim is not ruined, a decent shop can make
your wheel good as new. IMO, the hard thing is finding the
shop that will properly do the job. I tend to agree with
previous poster who advised not to buy a new wheel from the
shop that just sold you a new bike, then told you the
nearly new wheel was no good. Do tell more about your
experiences, and about the wheel, etc. For an example, my
bike mechanic took my "found in a dumpster" old mountain
bike rear wheel, which was dirty but not abused, re-
tensioned all the spokes (replaced none) and made it strong
and true. It works great, and I expect it to last a long
time. He charged me less than $40 too.

Best regards, Bernie

Daniel Crispin wrote:
:::: He offered to sell me a Deore wheel with Anodized
:::: spokes and dual walled frame. Pretty similar to what I
:::: have except for the spokes. 100 CAN$.
:::
::: You might want to buy stronger wheels, but I wouldn't
::: buy them from the same guys that sold you the bike 😄 😉
::
:: What do you mean by stronger wheels? Deore is high-
:: midrange and dual walled (or what ever it is called in
:: english) is the best frame you can get. I have talking
:: tech because all my tech books are in french and I can't
:: explain easilly...
::
::: You can spend about $200 usd to get a decent set of
::: handbuilt wheels or you can shop around--I recently saw
::: a nice pair of Ritchey 36 spoke offset rims with DT
::: spokes and Deore hubs at the local REI on sale for less
::: than $100usd. Having two complete sets of wheels with
::: different types of tires is very luxurious if you can
::: afford it.
::
:: When you say hand build, do you mean putting the wheel
:: together or forging the rim? I really doubt a rim can be
:: forged by hand better than a machine can do it. If you
:: are talking about putting the wheel together, then yes I
:: agree it might be better done by hand. But I don't want
:: to spend 200$ on a wheel when I have one that is only a
:: month old and is supposed to be of good quality. If the
:: spokes are the problem it might be worth it to replace
:: them. 36$ plus labour will cost me maybe 60 CAN$. Not bad
:: compared to 200 US$.

Get them to fix it under warranty. If they can't fix it,
then have them replace it. It could have been a poorly made
wheel from teh get-go.

:::
::: Another poster mentioned 32 spoke wheels--I'm going to
::: recommend 36 spoke wheels if you have a choice. Unless
::: you're racing, you won't feel the difference and not
::: having to true them very often is nice.
::
:: Well that is what I have... I counted 35 but I must have
:: missed one 😉

Badger_South wrote:
:: On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 20:06:17 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
:: <[email hidden]> wrote:
::
::: Rick Onanian wrote:
::::: On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 18:11:38 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
::::: <[email hidden]> wrote:
:::::: So now the bike shop is rebuilding my rear wheel
:::::: (which they should have done after the first one
:::::: since this is a new bike bought last fall). They've
:::::: had my bike since Monday <snip>
:::::
::::: They need the whole bike just to rebuild the wheel?
:::::
::::: They couldn't loan you a wheel to ride while they
::::: rebuild it? I mean, for all your trouble and
::::: everything...
:::
::: Hmm.....didn't think to ask that til now....thanks...
::
:: Doesn't that just drive ya nuts, though? You'd think
:: they'd suggest that, at least to a good customer.
::
:: Wish I had a LBS like Mike J's around here. Read his site
:: from cover-to-cover if you get a chance - lots of good
:: tips on stuff like this.

I'm not sure if I know that site...

::
:: (Heck if I hadn't read this ng, I'd have paid about $85
:: more for my Trek last month.)
::
:: Good luck and wishes for a fast repair and return of your
:: steed, man.

Thanks...now is when a good second bike would be handy...

::
:: -B

On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 23:25:23 -0400, "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

:: Wish I had a LBS like Mike J's around here. Read his
:: site from cover-to-cover if you get a chance - lots of
:: good tips on stuff like this.

I'm not sure if I know that site...

Mike's site is:

chainreaction.comchainreaction.comOpen ↗

-B

Rick Onanian wrote:
:: On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 18:11:38 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
:: <[email hidden]> wrote:
::: So now the bike shop is rebuilding my rear wheel (which
::: they should have done after the first one since this is
::: a new bike bought last fall). They've had my bike since
::: Monday <snip>
::
:: They need the whole bike just to rebuild the wheel?
::
:: They couldn't loan you a wheel to ride while they rebuild
:: it? I mean, for all your trouble and everything...

I'm going to get my bike with a loaner rear wheel in a few
minutes. Thanks much for the idea.

Daniel Crispin said:

But I don't want to spend 200$ on a wheel when I have one
that is only a month old and is supposed to be of good
quality. If the spokes are the problem it might be worth it
to replace them. 36$ plus labour will cost me maybe 60
CAN$. Not bad compared to 200 US$.

Consider having your existing wheel tensioned and trued by a
good wheelbuilder. You'll just be paying for the labor,
using your old parts, but you'll get an essentially new
wheel out of it.
--
Rick Onanian

Roger Zoul said:

Rick Onanian wrote:
:: They couldn't loan you a wheel to ride while they
:: rebuild it? I mean, for all your trouble and
:: everything...

I'm going to get my bike with a loaner rear wheel in a few
minutes. Thanks much for the idea.

Sheesh, I said something, and it actually _helped_ somebody?
Wow. Hell must have frozen over... <BFG>

Er...you're quite welcome. Happy to help. Etc.
--
Rick Onanian

Rick Onanian wrote:
:: On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 11:58:37 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
:: <[email hidden]> wrote:
::: Rick Onanian wrote:
::::: They couldn't loan you a wheel to ride while they
::::: rebuild it? I mean, for all your trouble and
::::: everything...
:::
::: I'm going to get my bike with a loaner rear wheel in a
::: few minutes. Thanks much for the idea.
::
:: Sheesh, I said something, and it actually _helped_
:: somebody? Wow. Hell must have frozen over... <BFG>
::
:: Er...you're quite welcome. Happy to help. Etc.

I was suprised that they put a brand new wheel on it, with a
new tire, too.

Ok Bernie, full story then 😉

I weight 280, the bike is an aluminium frame hybrid with
front suspension and seat suspension.

The wheel itself have dual wall (is that the right term?)
rim made by Shining Extro (never heard of them) and the
middle part (moyeux in French) is from an other company I
never heard of: Joytech. The guy told me the spokes were
not stainless steel. I don't know what comes bellow
stainless steel, steel maybe? He said they tendend to dull
out, become white and break rather quickly comparer to
higher quality spokes.

I had the wheel checked at a repair store, they don't sell
bikes. Guy seemed competent when I talked to him. He said
around 40$ to rebuild the wheel, which is what everyone
seems to agree on being a good price. He simply said that
it was not a great solution because of the low quality of
the spokes.

I ride on roads only. I don't jump sidewalks or do anything
drastic. I will of course hit a bump or pothole once in a
while but I try to go around them when possible. I 'have
added a rack to the rear and got 2 bags to go on it. I use
it to do my grocery among other things and that can
sometimes add 50 or more pounds directly on the wheel.

Right now I am hesitating on 3 choices:

1. Have the wheel re-tentioned for 40$
2. Have the wheel re-tentioned and change the spokes for 40$
plus about 36$ for the spokes (total 76$)
3. Buy the wheel he suggests with the dual walled rim, Deore
center piece and high quality anodized spokes for 95$

One way or an other the racket has got to stop, it's driving
me insane... sounds like I am dragging a bunch of beer cans
behind me.

"Bernie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:40C7CD09.5030101@mouse-
potato.com...

Quoted message said:

Daniel Crispin said:

Quoted message said:

>He offered to sell me a Deore wheel with Anodized
>spokes and dual walled frame. Pretty similar to what I
>have except for
>

the

Quoted message said:

>spokes. 100 CAN$.
>

Well that is what I have... I counted 35 but I must have
missed one 😉

<lots of snips> You have a brand new wheel with 36 spokes.
You probably need a decent bike mechanic to re-tension
your wheel. It's just like a rebuild. Should cost no more
than $40 CAD. Saying that, you didn't say how much you
weigh, or if you are beating the rim on curbs, etc. I have
gone thru some wheel truing and tensioning problems in the
past few years. If the rim is not ruined, a decent shop
can make your wheel good as new. IMO, the hard thing is
finding the shop that will properly do the job. I tend to
agree with previous poster who advised not to buy a new
wheel from the shop that just sold you a new bike, then
told you the nearly new wheel was no good. Do tell more
about your experiences, and about the wheel, etc. For an
example, my bike mechanic took my "found in a dumpster"
old mountain bike rear wheel, which was dirty but not
abused, re-tensioned all the spokes (replaced none) and
made it strong and true. It works great, and I expect it
to last a long time. He charged me less than $40 too.

Best regards, Bernie

Hum... I am not sure the warranty would apply... it's not
broken... just out of adjustment.

Cost nothing to try though. I will go talk to the tech at
the store I purchased the bike from.

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Daniel Crispin wrote:
:::: He offered to sell me a Deore wheel with Anodized
:::: spokes and dual walled frame. Pretty similar to what
:::: I have except for the spokes. 100 CAN$.
:::
::: You might want to buy stronger wheels, but I
::: wouldn't buy them from the same guys that sold you
::: the bike 😄 😉
::
:: What do you mean by stronger wheels? Deore is high-
:: midrange and dual walled (or what ever it is called in
:: english) is the best frame you can get. I have talking
:: tech because all my tech books are in french and I
:: can't explain easilly...
::
::: You can spend about $200 usd to get a decent set of
::: handbuilt wheels or you can shop around--I recently
::: saw a nice pair of Ritchey 36 spoke offset rims with
::: DT spokes and Deore hubs at the local REI on sale for
::: less than $100usd. Having two complete sets of wheels
::: with different types of tires is very luxurious if you
::: can afford it.
::
:: When you say hand build, do you mean putting the wheel
:: together or forging the rim? I really doubt a rim can
:: be forged by hand better than a machine can do it. If
:: you are talking about putting the wheel together, then
:: yes I agree it might be better done by hand. But I
:: don't want to spend 200$ on a wheel when I have one
:: that is only a month old and is supposed to be of good
:: quality. If the spokes are the problem it might be
:: worth it to replace them. 36$ plus labour will cost me
:: maybe 60 CAN$. Not bad compared to 200 US$.

Get them to fix it under warranty. If they can't fix it,
then have them replace it. It could have been a poorly
made wheel from teh get-go.

:::
::: Another poster mentioned 32 spoke wheels--I'm going to
::: recommend 36 spoke wheels if you have a choice. Unless
::: you're racing, you won't feel the difference and not
::: having to true them very often is nice.
::
:: Well that is what I have... I counted 35 but I must
:: have missed one 😉

Daniel Crispin wrote:
:: Hum... I am not sure the warranty would apply... it's not
:: broken... just out of adjustment.

But it should not be....

::
:: Cost nothing to try though. I will go talk to the tech at
:: the store I purchased the bike from.

Good idea....they saw you when they sold you the bike...

::
::
:: "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: "]news:[email hidden]...
::: Daniel Crispin wrote:
::::::: He offered to sell me a Deore wheel with Anodized
::::::: spokes and dual walled frame. Pretty similar to what
::::::: I have except for the spokes. 100 CAN$.
::::::
:::::: You might want to buy stronger wheels, but I
:::::: wouldn't buy them from the same guys that sold you
:::::: the bike 😄 😉
:::::
::::: What do you mean by stronger wheels? Deore is high-
::::: midrange and dual walled (or what ever it is called in
::::: english) is the best frame you can get. I have talking
::::: tech because all my tech books are in french and I
::::: can't explain easilly...
:::::
:::::: You can spend about $200 usd to get a decent set of
:::::: handbuilt wheels or you can shop around--I recently
:::::: saw a nice pair of Ritchey 36 spoke offset rims with
:::::: DT spokes and Deore hubs at the local REI on sale for
:::::: less than $100usd. Having two complete sets of wheels
:::::: with different types of tires is very luxurious if
:::::: you can afford it.
:::::
::::: When you say hand build, do you mean putting the wheel
::::: together or forging the rim? I really doubt a rim can
::::: be forged by hand better than a machine can do it. If
::::: you are talking about putting the wheel together, then
::::: yes I agree it might be better done by hand. But I
::::: don't want to spend 200$ on a wheel when I have one
::::: that is only a month old and is supposed to be of good
::::: quality. If the spokes are the problem it might be
::::: worth it to replace them. 36$ plus labour will cost me
::::: maybe 60 CAN$. Not bad compared to 200 US$.
:::
::: Get them to fix it under warranty. If they can't fix it,
::: then have them replace it. It could have been a poorly
::: made wheel from teh get-go.
:::
::::::
:::::: Another poster mentioned 32 spoke wheels--I'm going
:::::: to recommend 36 spoke wheels if you have a choice.
:::::: Unless you're racing, you won't feel the difference
:::::: and not having to true them very often is nice.
:::::
::::: Well that is what I have... I counted 35 but I must
::::: have missed one 😉

Daniel Crispin said:

Ok Bernie, full story then 😉

I weight 280, the bike is an aluminium frame hybrid with
front suspension and seat suspension.

I owned similar, but no suspension forks.

Quoted message said:

The wheel itself have dual wall (is that the right term?)
rim made by Shining Extro (never heard of them) and the
middle part (moyeux in French) is from an other company I
never heard of: Joytech.

Never heard of them either. Sounds like cheap Asian parts...
but that's not uncommon.

Quoted message said:

The guy told me the spokes were not stainless steel. I
don't know what comes bellow stainless steel, steel maybe?
He said they tendend to dull out, become white and break
rather quickly comparer to higher quality spokes.

Straight gauge galavanized steel spokes. My mechanic
considers them to be fairly low quality compared to
stainless steel spokes.

Quoted message said:

I had the wheel checked at a repair store, they don't sell
bikes. Guy seemed competent when I talked to him. He said
around 40$ to rebuild the wheel, which is what everyone
seems to agree on being a good price. He simply said that
it was not a great solution because of the low quality of
the spokes.

He may be correct.

Quoted message said:

I ride on roads only. I don't jump sidewalks or do anything
drastic. I will of course hit a bump or pothole once in a
while but I try to go around them when possible. I 'have
added a rack to the rear and got 2 bags to go on it. I use
it to do my grocery among other things and that can
sometimes add 50 or more pounds directly on the wheel.

Keep the load balanced. Between you and the groceries you
are carrying lots. FWIW, I weigh about 205 lbs these days
and broke several rear spokes and eventually destroyed a
rear wheel doing similarly. The solution was a properly
tensioned wheel (Deore hub, stainless spokes, double wall
rim, discounted to about $100 cad). I kept on loading
everything I wanted to put on it!
Q: do you have 700c or 26 inch wheels?

Quoted message said:

Right now I am hesitating on 3 choices:

1. Have the wheel re-tentioned for 40$
2. Have the wheel re-tentioned and change the spokes for
40$ plus about 36$ for the spokes (total 76$)
3. Buy the wheel he suggests with the dual walled rim,
Deore center piece and high quality anodized spokes
for 95$

Well, it's your call. The wheel sounds like a cheapie, so I
would not spend the $76. You will quite possibly get a lot
of miles out of the $40 retensioning...
#3 is possibly the best choice, but personally, I
#don't know.

Quoted message said:

One way or an other the racket has got to stop, it's
driving me insane... sounds like I am dragging a bunch of
beer cans behind me.

One way or the other, the mechanic you are seeing now can
make that noise go away. You definitely need a properly
built wheel right away.

Best regards, Bernie (this has been very interesting)

"Daniel Crispin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ok Bernie, full story then 😉

I weight 280, the bike is an aluminium frame hybrid with
front suspension and seat suspension.

Well, Daniel, you beat me. I'm about 40 pounds lighter, but
still overweight.

Quoted message said:

The guy told me the spokes were not stainless steel. I
don't know what comes bellow stainless steel, steel maybe?
He said they tendend to dull out, become white and break
rather quickly comparer to higher quality spokes.

I'm not an expert (see below when I mention Jobst), but
stainless ain't what you need. It is strength.

Quoted message said:

I had the wheel checked at a repair store, they don't sell
bikes. Guy seemed competent when I talked to him. He said
around 40$ to rebuild the wheel, which is what everyone
seems to agree on being a good price. He simply said that
it was not a great solution because of the low quality of
the spokes.

So there seems to be a consensus that you have low-quality
spokes. Can you get a >truly< independent opinion (perhaps a
bike shop on the other side of town?)

Quoted message said:

Right now I am hesitating on 3 choices:

From where I am sitting, this sounds as if your spokes
don't have enough tension. My guess (and I am >not< an
expert here) is that the spokes are loose enough that they
lose tension at some point in the wheel rotation because of
your weight and the [presumed] under-tensioning of the
spokes. This is a sure way to make the spokes fail early
and often. One way to check this is to see if greater-
tensioned spokes (freewheel side of the rear wheel) fail
less often than the others.

The true expert, in my opinion, is Jobst Brant. Author of
"The Bicycle Wheel" and believed by many (myself included)
to be a guru and a saint. Google for him. Jobst posts often
in ba.bicycles, so you may wish to try that notesgroup.

As for myself, I ride a very old bike (Mike J. of Chain
Reaction has already been mentioned in this thread -- he
and I rode together in high school before he went into
bicycling big-time and I became a sedentary couch-potato).
36-spoke wheels that I built myself on Phil Wood hubs. They
haven't been trued in at least 10 years and are arrow-
straight. I'm 230/240 (depends on the season) so put a bit
of stress on these (now archaic and overbuilt by today's
standards) wheels.

Quoted message said:

One way or an other the racket has got to stop, it's
driving me insane... sounds like I am dragging a bunch of
beer cans behind me.

You'll get there. Hang with it.

- Skip