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My own twisted vision ...

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Road Cycling
Published
30 June 2006
Last activity
1 July 2006
Original author
Sandy
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35
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  1. It has all the trappings of the guys in the write hats winning,
    perhaps. I have my doubts, first that they are the good guys, second
    that we know the bad guys, and third, that business interests and well
    executed PR are fully capable of eviscerating basic human values,
    rights, ideals.

    First, the fact underlying the TdF's aggressive move to force
    disqualification of riders and teams puts it a league or two ahead of
    the UCI, which appears intractably slow. If you recall that ASO is
    making every effort to disjoin the Pro Tour from the shows put on by
    itself and the other two Grand Tour organizations, you can see that it
    is striking a big blow on the monopoly of the UCI, and at the same time
    presenting itself as the only arbiter of justice. It is bound, one
    could think, by the TAS decision of yesterday, yet it makes clear that
    it will not abide by that ruling. Here's some hard work for some good
    lawyers this very day. So, I call into question ASO's motives, deplore
    the passivity of the UCI, and start wondering about the next players -
    The Guardia civil and the press.

    The Guardia civil is not the _judge_ of the matter, it is the organ of
    prosecution. Try to think if they may want to present the strongest
    case they can - well, of course ! The publicity of this case will far
    outweigh (I predict - and call me on it later) the level of success they
    eventually may have after court proceedings are complete. Try to recall
    the ineffective but loud intrusion the Carabinieri had in the Giro, with
    virtually no conviction results to crow about. The Guardia civil is
    doing what it can to get the matter settled without actual proceedings,
    and I find it hard to imagine that the culminated investigation was not
    disclosed - there was no effort in /El Pais/ obtaining the information.

    Without a proper (substantively and procedurally) court determination of
    the guilt or innocence of the individuals whose names have been
    published, they are not the bad guys. People will believe something bad
    about a person if they wish to, using thin or no evidence to support
    that belief, and ignoring the contrary. Until a finder of fact has
    examined everything presented, we will only have rumormongers and
    ideologues of all camps to listen to. Not to mention, again, the press,
    which earn its living by publishing, not by nicely respecting the civil
    rights, the humane treatment, of those whose careers they put in jeopardy.

    Finally, it is this collection of rights : rights to a presumption of
    innocence ; right to fair and free access to justice ; right to
    contradict the organs of state - these rights are being dismembered. By
    the press, the state, the ASO and UCI.
    BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY - by the members of the public *especially in this
    forum* who think they have the moral qualifications to intuit truth,
    form judgments, castigate others, all without having enough knowledge to
    tie their own shoelaces.

    This is turning into an event of mobocracy, with all kinds of actors of
    all spheres.
    My opinion - the dopers (whoever they are) have done less damage to
    cycling that have all the above. Yeah - I suppose lots of you plan to
    burn the witches.

    --

    Sandy

    Ce n'est pas que j'ai peur de la mort.
    Je veux seulement ne pas être là quand elle arrivera.

  2. Sandy said:


    Finally, it is this collection of rights : rights to a presumption of
    innocence ; right to fair and free access to justice ; right to
    contradict the organs of state - these rights are being dismembered. By
    the press, the state, the ASO and UCI.

    All this is irrelevant when you have sponsors financing these teams.
    Even the appearance of wrongdoing or unethical behavior is bad
    publicity for them and to be seen as complacent makes them appear to
    be sponsoring the behavior.

  3. "Sandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    It has all the trappings of the guys in the write hats winning, perhaps.
    I have my doubts, first that they are the good guys, second that we know
    the bad guys, and third, that business interests and well executed PR are
    fully capable of eviscerating basic human values, rights, ideals.

    First, the fact underlying the TdF's aggressive move to force
    disqualification of riders and teams puts it a league or two ahead of the
    UCI, which appears intractably slow. If you recall that ASO is making
    every effort to disjoin the Pro Tour from the shows put on by itself and
    the other two Grand Tour organizations, you can see that it is striking a
    big blow on the monopoly of the UCI, and at the same time presenting
    itself as the only arbiter of justice. It is bound, one could think, by
    the TAS decision of yesterday, yet it makes clear that it will not abide
    by that ruling. Here's some hard work for some good lawyers this very
    day. So, I call into question ASO's motives, deplore the passivity of the
    UCI, and start wondering about the next players - The Guardia civil and
    the press.

    The Guardia civil is not the _judge_ of the matter, it is the organ of
    prosecution. Try to think if they may want to present the strongest case
    they can - well, of course ! The publicity of this case will far outweigh
    (I predict - and call me on it later) the level of success they eventually
    may have after court proceedings are complete. Try to recall the
    ineffective but loud intrusion the Carabinieri had in the Giro, with
    virtually no conviction results to crow about. The Guardia civil is doing
    what it can to get the matter settled without actual proceedings, and I
    find it hard to imagine that the culminated investigation was not
    disclosed - there was no effort in /El Pais/ obtaining the information.

    Without a proper (substantively and procedurally) court determination of
    the guilt or innocence of the individuals whose names have been published,
    they are not the bad guys. People will believe something bad about a
    person if they wish to, using thin or no evidence to support that belief,
    and ignoring the contrary. Until a finder of fact has examined everything
    presented, we will only have rumormongers and ideologues of all camps to
    listen to. Not to mention, again, the press, which earn its living by
    publishing, not by nicely respecting the civil rights, the humane
    treatment, of those whose careers they put in jeopardy.

    Finally, it is this collection of rights : rights to a presumption of
    innocence ; right to fair and free access to justice ; right to contradict
    the organs of state - these rights are being dismembered. By the press,
    the state, the ASO and UCI.
    BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY - by the members of the public *especially in this
    forum* who think they have the moral qualifications to intuit truth, form
    judgments, castigate others, all without having enough knowledge to tie
    their own shoelaces.

    This is turning into an event of mobocracy, with all kinds of actors of
    all spheres.
    My opinion - the dopers (whoever they are) have done less damage to
    cycling that have all the above. Yeah - I suppose lots of you plan to
    burn the witches.

    It doesn't take a rocket scientist to tie shoe laces or a judge and/or jury
    for that matter. :-)

  4. Sandy said:

    It has all the trappings of the guys in the write hats winning,
    perhaps. I have my doubts, first that they are the good guys, second
    that we know the bad guys, and third, that business interests and well
    executed PR are fully capable of eviscerating basic human values,
    rights, ideals.

    First, the fact underlying the TdF's aggressive move to force
    disqualification of riders and teams puts it a league or two ahead of
    the UCI, which appears intractably slow. If you recall that ASO is
    making every effort to disjoin the Pro Tour from the shows put on by
    itself and the other two Grand Tour organizations, you can see that it
    is striking a big blow on the monopoly of the UCI, and at the same time
    presenting itself as the only arbiter of justice. It is bound, one
    could think, by the TAS decision of yesterday, yet it makes clear that
    it will not abide by that ruling. Here's some hard work for some good
    lawyers this very day. So, I call into question ASO's motives, deplore
    the passivity of the UCI, and start wondering about the next players -
    The Guardia civil and the press.

    The Guardia civil is not the _judge_ of the matter, it is the organ of
    prosecution. Try to think if they may want to present the strongest
    case they can - well, of course ! The publicity of this case will far
    outweigh (I predict - and call me on it later) the level of success they
    eventually may have after court proceedings are complete. Try to recall
    the ineffective but loud intrusion the Carabinieri had in the Giro, with
    virtually no conviction results to crow about. The Guardia civil is
    doing what it can to get the matter settled without actual proceedings,
    and I find it hard to imagine that the culminated investigation was not
    disclosed - there was no effort in /El Pais/ obtaining the information.

    Without a proper (substantively and procedurally) court determination of
    the guilt or innocence of the individuals whose names have been
    published, they are not the bad guys. People will believe something bad
    about a person if they wish to, using thin or no evidence to support
    that belief, and ignoring the contrary. Until a finder of fact has
    examined everything presented, we will only have rumormongers and
    ideologues of all camps to listen to. Not to mention, again, the press,
    which earn its living by publishing, not by nicely respecting the civil
    rights, the humane treatment, of those whose careers they put in jeopardy.

    Finally, it is this collection of rights : rights to a presumption of
    innocence ; right to fair and free access to justice ; right to
    contradict the organs of state - these rights are being dismembered. By
    the press, the state, the ASO and UCI.
    BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY - by the members of the public *especially in this
    forum* who think they have the moral qualifications to intuit truth,
    form judgments, castigate others, all without having enough knowledge to
    tie their own shoelaces.

    This is turning into an event of mobocracy, with all kinds of actors of
    all spheres.
    My opinion - the dopers (whoever they are) have done less damage to
    cycling that have all the above. Yeah - I suppose lots of you plan to
    burn the witches.

    --

    Sandy

    Ce n'est pas que j'ai peur de la mort.
    Je veux seulement ne pas être là quand elle arrivera.

    Thank You!!!
    You put the words, and thoughts together beautifully, effectively, and
    rationally. If I ever get back there and get in trouble I'm coming
    looking for you to help me out.
    Bill C

  5. Robert Chung said:

    A well-placed leak can be quite effective at bolstering a weak case. That
    isn't to say that this case will turn out to be weak--but my sense is that
    at the moment the case is certainly incomplete. First we heard of 200 bags
    of blood, then 58 names, then 31 of those names got released. This doesn't
    mean that 27 other names won't get released in the next few days--it
    simply means that the case is incomplete. So the question isn't "why is
    the Guardia Civil leaking the case?" but rather "why are they leaking it
    now?"

    Conspiracy theory: Disco really wants Hincapie to win the TdF, so they
    "made sure" to remove his main competition.

  6. jt a écrit :

    Quoted message said:
    Sandy said:

    Finally, it is this collection of rights : rights to a presumption of
    innocence ; right to fair and free access to justice ; right to
    contradict the organs of state - these rights are being dismembered. By
    the press, the state, the ASO and UCI.

    All this is irrelevant when you have sponsors financing these teams.
    Even the appearance of wrongdoing or unethical behavior is bad
    publicity for them and to be seen as complacent makes them appear to
    be sponsoring the behavior.


    Saying it kindly - you have your moral compass shoved up your ass.

  7. "Sandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    jt a écrit :

    Quoted message said:
    Sandy said:

    Finally, it is this collection of rights : rights to a presumption of
    innocence ; right to fair and free access to justice ; right to
    contradict the organs of state - these rights are being dismembered. By
    the press, the state, the ASO and UCI.

    All this is irrelevant when you have sponsors financing these teams.
    Even the appearance of wrongdoing or unethical behavior is bad
    publicity for them and to be seen as complacent makes them appear to
    be sponsoring the behavior.


    Saying it kindly - you have your moral compass shoved up your ass.

    Will that aid digestion?

  8. in message <[email hidden]>, jt

    (') said:
    Sandy said:


    Finally, it is this collection of rights : rights to a presumption of
    innocence ; right to fair and free access to justice ; right to
    contradict the organs of state - these rights are being dismembered.
    By the press, the state, the ASO and UCI.

    All this is irrelevant when you have sponsors financing these teams.

    Exactly. At least for Ullrich and Sevilla, it seems to be the sponsor who
    insisted they go. I'd be very surprised if CSC (the company) didn't have
    a similar attitude. He who pays the piper...

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ;; Semper in faecibus sumus, sole profundum variat.

  9. Dans le message de
    news:[email hidden],
    yeahyeah <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

    Quoted message said:


    Or maybe the ASO is just afraid that the World Cup will wholly eclipse
    the Tour and they're just trying to get some attention. Bad attention
    is better than no attention.

    You may not have noticed, but the prologue was moved from late in the day to
    the afternoon to avoid conflict with the 3-4 consolation final. It's a
    busy, busy, busy day on the couch.

  10. Sandy said:

    But really, timing is just as often chance. /El Pais/ saw to that.

    That's what they want you to believe.

    BTW, what do you make of Valverde being the only rider to be pre-emptively
    cleared? (I was going to capitalize "only" but decided that would be a bit
    much.)

  11. Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
    Robert Chung <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

    Quoted message said:
    Sandy said:

    But really, timing is just as often chance. /El Pais/ saw to that.

    That's what they want you to believe.

    BTW, what do you make of Valverde being the only rider to be
    pre-emptively cleared? (I was going to capitalize "only" but decided
    that would be a bit much.)

    Now that's easy !

    He'll be the first guy since Merckx to win the yellow, green, dotted, white
    and all other jerseys. Provided he finishes. His average speed may queer
    your chart. I am getting the hang for statistical outliers.

  12. Sandy said:


    But really, timing is just as often chance. /El Pais/ saw to that.

    C'mon, ASO hardlining T-Mobile and the others 1.5 days before the race
    began was not chance. ASO did not want there to be any right of the
    riders or teams to refute the accusations. ASO wished to force
    outright suspensions by maximizing crisis. Get rid of those riders
    before they took the start under investigation.

  13. Hunter a écrit :

    Quoted message said:
    Sandy said:

    But really, timing is just as often chance. /El Pais/ saw to that.

    C'mon, ASO hardlining T-Mobile and the others 1.5 days before the race
    began was not chance. ASO did not want there to be any right of the
    riders or teams to refute the accusations. ASO wished to force
    outright suspensions by maximizing crisis. Get rid of those riders
    before they took the start under investigation.


    Unless there is something I don't know (nigh impossible), ASO and
    l'Équipe have no ownership interests in /El Pais/. Crisis of the sort
    in progress doesn't get French people more interested, I fear. Yes,
    it's an international event, but 70% of the roadside is French, 90%
    European, and they are the targets of commercialization.

  14. Sandy said:

    Hunter a écrit :

    Quoted message said:
    Sandy said:

    But really, timing is just as often chance. /El Pais/ saw to that.

    C'mon, ASO hardlining T-Mobile and the others 1.5 days before the race
    began was not chance. ASO did not want there to be any right of the
    riders or teams to refute the accusations. ASO wished to force
    outright suspensions by maximizing crisis. Get rid of those riders
    before they took the start under investigation.


    Unless there is something I don't know (nigh impossible), ASO and
    l'Équipe have no ownership interests in /El Pais/. Crisis of the sort
    in progress doesn't get French people more interested, I fear. Yes,
    it's an international event, but 70% of the roadside is French, 90%
    European, and they are the targets of commercialization.

    I'm curious, what do you think might happen if a doping scandal of this
    sort were to happen to football/soccer during the world cup?

  15. Sandy said:

    Saying it kindly - you have your moral compass shoved up your ass.

    Thats most inconvenient; it doesn't leave much room for caffeine
    suppositories (or a head).

  16. yeahyeah a écrit :

    Quoted message said:
    Sandy said:

    Hunter a écrit :

    Quoted message said:

    Sandy wrote:

    > But really, timing is just as often chance. /El Pais/ saw to that.
    >
    >
    C'mon, ASO hardlining T-Mobile and the others 1.5 days before the race
    began was not chance. ASO did not want there to be any right of the
    riders or teams to refute the accusations. ASO wished to force
    outright suspensions by maximizing crisis. Get rid of those riders
    before they took the start under investigation.


    Unless there is something I don't know (nigh impossible), ASO and
    l'Équipe have no ownership interests in /El Pais/. Crisis of the sort
    in progress doesn't get French people more interested, I fear. Yes,
    it's an international event, but 70% of the roadside is French, 90%
    European, and they are the targets of commercialization.

    I'm curious, what do you think might happen if a doping scandal of this
    sort were to happen to football/soccer during the world cup?


    The entire planet would explode.
    Alternatively, nothing.

  17. Sandy said:

    This is turning into an event of mobocracy, with all kinds of actors of
    all spheres.
    My opinion - the dopers (whoever they are) have done less damage to
    cycling that have all the above. Yeah - I suppose lots of you plan to
    burn the witches.

    Actually, it boils down to the fact that Jan has made good bucks/Euros
    from the public following cycling: even if these cyclists are treated
    exactly the same procedurally as everyone else, that same public
    brings notoriety and the people writing the checks start becoming
    unhappy.

    The system in the U.S. is largely the same, with the prosecutor having
    the real authority through the grand jury system and in any major
    case, the only ones happy are the lawyers IF they can collect from
    their clients. Reputations can't be reassembled, memories can't be
    expurgated. Check out the Duke lacrosse team (and trust me, as a
    University of Maryland fan, I hate Duke in a sports fan kind of way).

    This Tour has an asterisk that won't go away and we need to move on.
    End the Tours, kill off the Olympics and lets have nine-ten months of
    one days and week long tours. Easier on my TV viewing as well. And OLN
    can go back to fly fishing and maybe add bear baiting to their list.
    Now there's a sport, unless they put either the bearl or the dogs on
    steroids...

    Curtis L. Russell
    Odenton, MD (USA)
    Just someone on two wheels...

  18. "Sandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Dans le message de news:[email hidden],


    :

    Quoted message said:

    Because ASO wants to neuter UCI, establish the primacy of private
    enterprise championships, offer a haven to [censored] Pound, boost its public
    image, yet PR this edition of the Tour as KLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN ! In short -
    money.

    Because Guardia civil is a Spanish organ, likes power, likes to spend
    money, wants to stop terrorism (that was for amusement), and can avoid
    showing its incompetence for having missed last year's Vuelta, and provide
    a KLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN Vuelta 2006. Not to mention the support of private
    enterprise, moral superiority, and stabbing the Tour 2006 perhaps mortally
    (just 2006, not the entire future offspring). And because (?) the leak
    was inopportunely going to be public without their control.


    "BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY - by the members of the public *especially in this
    forum* who think they have the moral qualifications to intuit truth,
    form judgments, castigate others, all without having enough knowledge to
    tie their own shoelaces."

    Glad to see that you've taken yourself at your own words. Seems like when
    it comes to intuiting truth, forming judgments or castigating others, you do
    it as well as the rest of this forum's participants.

  19. Curtis L. Russell a écrit :

    Quoted message said:
    Sandy said:

    This is turning into an event of mobocracy, with all kinds of actors of
    all spheres.
    My opinion - the dopers (whoever they are) have done less damage to
    cycling that have all the above. Yeah - I suppose lots of you plan to
    burn the witches.

    Actually, it boils down to the fact that Jan has made good bucks/Euros
    from the public following cycling: even if these cyclists are treated
    exactly the same procedurally as everyone else, that same public
    brings notoriety and the people writing the checks start becoming
    unhappy.

    Worth noting, however, how many of the NAMES are not the big earners. 30
    000€ for start, less taxes and social charges, is not really royal.
    That's microeconomic - get macro, and you have a big pig to wrestle with.

  20. matabala a écrit :

    Quoted message said:

    "Sandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Dans le message de news:[email hidden],


    :

    Quoted message said:

    Because ASO wants to neuter UCI, establish the primacy of private
    enterprise championships, offer a haven to [censored] Pound, boost its public
    image, yet PR this edition of the Tour as KLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN ! In short -
    money.

    Because Guardia civil is a Spanish organ, likes power, likes to spend
    money, wants to stop terrorism (that was for amusement), and can avoid
    showing its incompetence for having missed last year's Vuelta, and provide
    a KLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN Vuelta 2006. Not to mention the support of private
    enterprise, moral superiority, and stabbing the Tour 2006 perhaps mortally
    (just 2006, not the entire future offspring). And because (?) the leak
    was inopportunely going to be public without their control.


    "BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY - by the members of the public *especially in this
    forum* who think they have the moral qualifications to intuit truth,
    form judgments, castigate others, all without having enough knowledge to
    tie their own shoelaces."

    Glad to see that you've taken yourself at your own words. Seems like when
    it comes to intuiting truth, forming judgments or castigating others, you do
    it as well as the rest of this forum's participants.


    I replied to a request to guess. My next guess is you will learn to
    read soon.

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