My "ITBS" Story (Long)

Quoted message said:

I seem to recall having a bout of sciatica now again t

Good

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and then he sent me to a Chiro.

Good.

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Before that, however, I asked the Doc to take a look at my running on a
treadmill to see if there was anything there I should know about. He was
amazed in that he said I had virtually no heel strike at all, but he did
notice a loud "slap" when my feet hit the ground. At that point, I was
wondering if I was in the right shoes.

<sigh> Or you could've just slowed down. Did the Dr suggest this? If not, don't
return to him.

Quoted message said:

The weekend before my first appointment, I ran in a 5k. I figured it would
be a good way to get back in to race mentality. I really wanted to take it
slowly, but once out there the competitive juices started flowing and I
finished only a couple of minutes off a pace I would have done 17 years ago.
I came away from the race with a case of sciatica and trotted off (gingerly
and happily) to the Chiro.

Again, speed kills, you just are running too fast. Do you do ANY LSD runs? It
is obvious to me you only need a chiro, and to slow down.

Quoted message said:

By that point, the sciatica was hurting worse than the knee so he decided to
work on that.

That is the CAUSE of your knee troubles. So it makes perfect sense he'd teat
that instead. The knee will go away once you are treated.

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The result of the stretches he gave were my left leg being in more pain than
I have ever experienced in my life. My entire leg felt as though it was
being lowered into a vat of hot oil, and I was on my back for two days,
unable to move save for the numbing properties of Percoset. After that
episode, my left ankle was completely numb, my shin was all pins and needles
and the Chiro seemed struck with the fascination of a guy who has just found
a crack in his buddy's windshield and is now tapping next to it to see how
far he can make it go.

BAD chiro! I am not a believer in stretching, at least not until the problem is
fixed. But right off I can tell you that you WAY overdid the stretching. No
amonubt of stretching will cure sciatia, and stretching with it will almost
certainly aggravate it. Perhaps after your adjustment your body almost
immediately returned your spine to the old position. Why? Because your body
reads a chiros adjustment as an injury (just as it did the 1st time you hurt
your back. Although it may have been gradual and imperceivable. So upon the
chiro adjusting it, it may have returned to it's old position, this can occur
before you even leave his office, or from sitting on the ride home. It
sometimes takes several adjustments before they take effect.

Quoted message said:

The numbness did not subside in the subsequent 8-12 week window,

Let me guess, you stopped running and exercise during this time? It's the very
WORSE thing you can do under these circumstances.

Quoted message said:

so I had a
microdiscectomy a few days ago and hope to eventually get back to running
and/or biking soon (relatively).

Bad decision. You'll probably never be the same again. Surgery on your back
leaves you with a 1 in 5 chance of ever returning to "normal" again. You
probably shoud've dumped that chiro, and found a cxompetent one. But surgery in
these cases is a VERY BAD idea.

Quoted message said:

The point of all this is that my ITBS really wasn't ITBS at all. It was a
result of the L4 nerve being compromised in my left leg and my right leg
having to compensate for the weakness in the left. I wouldn't wish this on
anyone, but I wonder how many cases are really the result of some other
exacerbating factor.

99.9% of injurys to ankles, knees, and hips are caused by misalignment of your
spine. People treat the symptoms instead of the cause, then wonder why it keeps
returning.

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I had never had any problem like this before and
perhaps it is something that comes with age,

It shows up as we age, but usually the initial injury is so minor you never
notice it. Over time, and with age it will worsen. The spine trys to keep equal
weight on each leg. However when one goes out of placeit is barely noticeable.
With time your spine will actually move another vertebrae out of line to
compenste for the first misalignment. As the years go on, more and more move
out of line until your problem worsens. A young body can compensate, but at
some point it causes more problems that you'd never even consider were related
to that little "snap" that you heard when you were 18 years old.

Quoted message said:

but if you have the time, money
and patience, I would highly recommend leaving no stone unturned when
dealing with injury.

Good advice, as long as you skip the MD, and the surgeon.

Quoted message said:

Thanks for all your help and support and I hope to be running back with you
all in the next few months.

If you avoid surgeons, maybe... remember the disc did not cause your problems,
the misalignment did. By removing the piece of disc being pinched, he likely
left your two discs rubbing together, which will produce bone spurs (I know, I
have them on my spine). In turn, the misalignmrnt caused your disc to go out of
place. Repair the misalignment, the rest will go away. When it arises agin DO
NOT WAIT SO LONG before going to a chiro, and if you avoid the stretches until
you're healthy and back in alignment you'll find yourself as good as new. You
must now realize that the stretching caused, or at very least aggravated the
disc problems.
Good luck.
Fabby.

I can't believe it! I spent over 20 minutes typing a response, several in fact,
and they never got posted????

"teknofyle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

<sad story snipped>

Quoted message said:

I'm 43, 6'2" and around 200 pounds.

Sorry to dump on your already ruined parade, but I suspect your problems
were exacerbated - if not caused primarily - by your weight. Frankly, I
wouldn't advise *any* over-40 to commence a running programme until they'd
reduced their weight to the lower 10% of the values noted in the
height/weight charts. Sure, loads of folk don't bother - then somewhere
down the line they start filling up the sports injuries/chiro/physio clinic
wondering where it all went wrong.

There are two things you need to do to run injury free:

1. Be light.
2. Know your biomechanics and buy appropriate shoes.
3. Stretch like your running life depends on it - it does.

Ok, I know that's three but, like, does it *really* matter?

"teknofyle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

On the way to this peak, I discovered I had a classic case of ITBS in my
right knee. It hurt badly going up stairs,

The classic syndrome of ITBS is pain going *downstairs*,
not up. There's pain going up, but it's always significantly
worse on the way down.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton ON)
www.absolutelyaccurate.com
www.allfalldown.org

I apologize in advance. I knew I would end up leaving out some important
details, so here they are with comments below:

"FabulustRunner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<sigh> Or you could've just slowed down. Did the Dr suggest this? If not,
don't
return to him.

I was running REALLY slowly in training. At that time, a 12 minute mile was
fast. Most of the time I was running 14-15 minute miles.

Quoted message said:

Again, speed kills, you just are running too fast. Do you do ANY LSD runs?
It
is obvious to me you only need a chiro, and to slow down.

Again, I think that's what I did.

Quoted message said:

Let me guess, you stopped running and exercise during this time? It's the
very
WORSE thing you can do under these circumstances.

Well, not exactly. My left leg was kind of floppy and weak from the Chiro
stretches. I did try to run during this time, but I could only manage about
3 miles at a time and it was pretty annoying with a floppy leg, not to
mention made the left hip rather sore from having to compensate.

Quoted message said:

Bad decision. You'll probably never be the same again. Surgery on your
back
leaves you with a 1 in 5 chance of ever returning to "normal" again. You
probably shoud've dumped that chiro, and found a cxompetent one. But
surgery in
these cases is a VERY BAD idea.

I didn't see where I had a lot of choice. After the Chiro, I had a partial
foot drop and numbness on my ankle, along with pins and needles on my shin.
This did not go away over the 10 week period before surgery. No less than 3
doctors I saw during this period suggested that doing nothing to reverse the
trend was risking permanent damage...taking into account that at this point
I had tried all the drugs known to be useful and the Chiro. Just by the way,
I was told by a couple of doctors that because I was not in significant
pain, but had more of the nerve issues, it did not seem that an epidural
would help my situation.

Quoted message said:

You
must now realize that the stretching caused, or at very least aggravated
the
disc problems.

Yes, I do. Ironically, I had never stretched at all.

I could have sworn I read on an ITBS website that it was up, but it mattered
little, because stairs in general were painful. You may be right, however.
As you might imagine, my interest in ITBS waned around the same time my
fascination with herniated discs increased...

"SwStudio" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"teknofyle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

On the way to this peak, I discovered I had a classic case of ITBS in my
right knee. It hurt badly going up stairs,

The classic syndrome of ITBS is pain going *downstairs*,
not up. There's pain going up, but it's always significantly
worse on the way down.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton ON)
www.absolutelyaccurate.com
www.allfalldown.org

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm 43, 6'2" and around 200 pounds.

Sorry to dump on your already ruined parade, but I suspect your problems
were exacerbated - if not caused primarily - by your weight

You dork. his weight is perfect for his height.>There are two things you need
to do to run injury free:

Quoted message said:

1. Be light.

This HAS to be the ABSOLUTE STUPIDEST F***ing thing I have EVER read on here.
You are a total imbecile.

Quoted message said:

2. Know your biomechanics and buy appropriate shoes.

True.

Quoted message said:

3. Stretch like your running life depends on it - it does.

Again, you are so wrong it hurts!

Quoted message said:

Ok, I know that's three but, like, does it *really* matter?

You can't even count to three, but we're supposed to listen to your dangerous
advice? My gawd man, seek counseling.

"teknofyle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The point of all this is that my ITBS really wasn't ITBS at all. It was a
result of the L4 nerve being compromised in my left leg and my right leg
having to compensate for the weakness in the left. I wouldn't wish this on
anyone, but I wonder how many cases are really the result of some other
exacerbating factor. I had never had any problem like this before and
perhaps it is something that comes with age, but if you have the time,

money

Quoted message said:

and patience, I would highly recommend leaving no stone unturned when
dealing with injury.

Having had a huge amount of trouble with my lower back (L5) and sciatic
nerve pain back in the 80's, I found that for me stretching exacerbated the
problem. I had run for years, but injured my back doing some back
hyper-extensions in the gym. I couldn't stand straight for months, was in
constant pain walking, sitting, or even lying down. Doctors said that it
was a herniated/degenerative disc. Even after I could stand straight, the
back would go out every few months, lasting for a couple of weeks, for
several years. During this time when my back was better I had started to
jog very slowly, and my intuition told me to carefully do a lot of
stretching. For me that was wrong. The stretching only made it worse, and
my back would go out. I thought I would never be able to run again.

What finally did work for me was abdominal exercises, done the right way,
with the legs bent. The stronger my abs got, the more strain they took off
the back. For me that was the key, and I've been able to run for many years
without pain.

"teknofyle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(...)
On the way to this peak, I discovered I had a classic case of ITBS in my
right knee. It hurt badly going up stairs, was worse when I stopped,
responded to stretching--it was a pretty textbook case.

If it didn´t hurt badly also (or especially) going down
stairs, it certainly wasn´t a clearcut case, and if the
pain really was worse when you stopped, it sure wasn´t
a textbook case at all: the pain is usually alleviated
as soon as one stops running and one may (after a few
minutes) be able to continue by walking without any pain
(and even be lulled into thinking one can start running
again...).

Anders

"Anders Lustig" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"teknofyle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(...)
On the way to this peak, I discovered I had a classic case of ITBS in
my
right knee. It hurt badly going up stairs, was worse when I stopped,
responded to stretching--it was a pretty textbook case.

If it didn´t hurt badly also (or especially) going down
stairs, it certainly wasn´t a clearcut case, and if the
pain really was worse when you stopped, it sure wasn´t
a textbook case at all: the pain is usually alleviated
as soon as one stops running and one may (after a few
minutes) be able to continue by walking without any pain
(and even be lulled into thinking one can start running
again...).

For a pile of pathology see
http://www.csuchico.edu/phed/atc/Projects/ITband/ITBFS.html
More down to earth http://www.drpribut.com/sports/spitb.html

-DF

teknofyle said:

The numbness did not subside in the subsequent 8-12 week window, so I

had a

Quoted message said:

microdiscectomy a few days ago and hope to eventually get back to

running

Quoted message said:

and/or biking soon (relatively).

Is a microdiscectomy the removal of the disc and then subsequent fusing
of the vertebra?

If so, my mother had it done after 20 years of back trouble with a
herniated disc, and is VERY happy with her decision. She's not a
runner, though - but walked for years (which is how she managed to
avoid surgery for so long).

She never had much luck with Chiropracters though. I went to one when
I was pregnant and my midback was killing me, and he helped quite a
bit, but I always wondered if it would have gone away on its own.
Cathy Weeks

Your story ranks right up there with "Brian's Song". I cried like a
baby.

Quoted message said:

Is a microdiscectomy the removal of the disc and then subsequent fusing
of the vertebra?

No. Microdisectomy is much less invasive, and only removes a small part of the
disk. Nothing remotely similar, and far less radical.

Quoted message said:

She never had much luck with Chiropracters though.

You need to find the right one. Preferably one that's been around awhile. But
they are exactly the right kind of dr to see for this condition. Your mother
may've had underlying conditions, or just went to him too late.

Quoted message said:

I went to one when
I was pregnant and my midback was killing me, and he helped quite a
bit, but I always wondered if it would have gone away on its own.

Unquestinably, within 9 months. A recent study showed most conditions that
chiros treat will have the same outcome a year later than if they didn't treat
them. However the difference was the amount of pain, and the amount of mobility
during that year. The untreated group were more immobile, out of work longer,
and in constant pain. While the chiro treated group averaged 80% less lost time
from work, and much less loss of mobility and pain. That is what make chiros
worth their weight in gold. There's not much doubt your back would've
eventually be the same as it is now, but you would've suffered a lot more
without him.

FabulustRunner said:

Quoted message said:

Is a microdiscectomy the removal of the disc and then subsequent

fusing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of the vertebra?

No. Microdisectomy is much less invasive, and only removes a small

part of the

Quoted message said:

disk. Nothing remotely similar, and far less radical.

She had her surgery in 1997 - was the less invasive surgery available
then?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

She never had much luck with Chiropracters though.

You need to find the right one. Preferably one that's been around

awhile. But

Quoted message said:

they are exactly the right kind of dr to see for this condition. Your

mother

Quoted message said:

may've had underlying conditions, or just went to him too late.

She had degenerative disc disease, and tried chiros and they just
didn't help. But she didn't shop around much. She had the best luck
with exercise. She walked briskly for several miles EVERY day, and
that kept her back in working order (though not great - she still had a
lot of pain). She managed to avoid surgery for 20 years because of the
exercise. The disk was BADLY herniated.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I went to one when
I was pregnant and my midback was killing me, and he helped quite a
bit, but I always wondered if it would have gone away on its own.

Unquestinably, within 9 months.

I knew someone would say that!!! I was about 6 months pregnant, when I
went on a road trip, and 20 hours in the car really caused me back pain
that didn't fade away in a few days of our return (and second 20
hours!). I'd always thought pregnancy caused low back pain, but my low
back was fine. I went to the Chiro out of desperation - I couldn't sit
comfortably all day at work, or drive comfortably. I went to him for
about 2.5 weeks, and saw a lot of improvement. I had an appointment on
9/11/2001 which was cancelled for obvious reasons, and I never
rescheduled it, and I was fine through the remainder of my pregnancy -
well, aside from the normal advanced pregnancy discomforts.

Going to the Chiro was a real treat - he had a special table that split
apart to accomodate the big belly - so I got to lay face down
(something I hadn't done in months!) for 15 minutes with a hot sandbag
on my sore back - I usually fell asleep, and he had to wake me up to do
the adjustments.

So, I was wondering if it would have healed on it's own in that same
2.5 weeks. So it sounds like yes, it probably would, but I would have
been a lot less comfortable.

Cathy Weeks

FabulustRunner said:

Quoted message said:

Is a microdiscectomy the removal of the disc and then subsequent

fusing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of the vertebra?

No. Microdisectomy is much less invasive, and only removes a small

part of the

Quoted message said:

disk. Nothing remotely similar, and far less radical.

She had her surgery in 1997 - was the less invasive surgery available
then?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

She never had much luck with Chiropracters though.

You need to find the right one. Preferably one that's been around

awhile. But

Quoted message said:

they are exactly the right kind of dr to see for this condition. Your

mother

Quoted message said:

may've had underlying conditions, or just went to him too late.

She had degenerative disc disease, and tried chiros and they just
didn't help. But she didn't shop around much. She had the best luck
with exercise. She walked briskly for several miles EVERY day, and
that kept her back in working order (though not great - she still had a
lot of pain). She managed to avoid surgery for 20 years because of the
exercise. The disk was BADLY herniated.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I went to one when
I was pregnant and my midback was killing me, and he helped quite a
bit, but I always wondered if it would have gone away on its own.

Unquestinably, within 9 months.

I knew someone would say that!!! I was about 6 months pregnant, when I
went on a road trip, and 20 hours in the car really caused me back pain
that didn't fade away in a few days of our return (and second 20
hours!). I'd always thought pregnancy caused low back pain, but my low
back was fine. I went to the Chiro out of desperation - I couldn't sit
comfortably all day at work, or drive comfortably. I went to him for
about 2.5 weeks, and saw a lot of improvement. I had an appointment on
9/11/2001 which was cancelled for obvious reasons, and I never
rescheduled it, and I was fine through the remainder of my pregnancy -
well, aside from the normal advanced pregnancy discomforts.

Going to the Chiro was a real treat - he had a special table that split
apart to accomodate the big belly - so I got to lay face down
(something I hadn't done in months!) for 15 minutes with a hot sandbag
on my sore back - I usually fell asleep, and he had to wake me up to do
the adjustments.

So, I was wondering if it would have healed on it's own in that same
2.5 weeks. So it sounds like yes, it probably would, but I would have
been a lot less comfortable.

Cathy Weeks

Quoted message said:

She had her surgery in 1997 - was the less invasive surgery available
then?

I don't know, but after reading below it's obvious that she needed more than a
little snip of a disk.

Quoted message said:

She had degenerative disc disease

A chiro cannot cure that, and will have limited success treating it. He cannot
make a disc appear where it has dissolved. This is a perfect case of a person
going to a chiro for a non-treatable injury (although he can help it some) and
then going around bad-mouthing chiros because he didn't cure you.

Quoted message said:

But she didn't shop around much.

If one doesn't help almost right away, try another. Just as you'd do with an MD
who wasn't fixing you.

Quoted message said:

She had the best luck
with exercise. She walked briskly for several miles EVERY day, and
that kept her back in working order (though not great - she still had a
lot of pain). She managed to avoid surgery for 20 years because of the
exercise. The disk was BADLY herniated.

Me too. My disk is ripped in two pieces it was herniated so bad. Two are
dissloved.

Quoted message said:

So, I was wondering if it would have healed on it's own in that same
2.5 weeks. So it sounds like yes, it probably would, but I would have
been a lot less comfortable.

Not likely. If you'd read what I said, it would've healed, but likely it
would've taken 12.5 weeks without treatment, and caused you a lot of pain in
that 12 weeks. The study suggested with treatment the problems cleared up in a
month or two with little pain. The untreated group took a year and a great deal
of immobility and pain.
However I think it is important to remember the few people in this study who
NEVER got better because they went untreated. They are now permanently
disabled. If even one of them was left whole again, would it have been worth it
to him/her? I'll bet they'd say yes.
Chiros have long had a place in sports medicine, however the medical community
has been stubborn recognizing this fact.