I just did my first ITT 40k, the day after I did a 70 miles circuit race. Not sure if fatigue may play a role here but I figured these back to back races would put enough training load. The course is flat with tail wind going out and head wind coming back. Average power is about 230w. NP is pretty much the same. Average speed was 23 mph. Time was 1 hour and 5 minutes. Not on a dedicated TT machine. My road bike with mini clip on aero bar and a 60mm Hed front wheel. It took me 37 minutes to reach to the half way point and another 38 minutes heading back.
What puzzled me is that my FT based on NP is 250w. The FT is tested on a very rolling 6 miles circuit. I was thinking a flat 40k TT like this one my average power should be closer to 250w. Maybe my aero position may play a role or/and fatigue from yesterday's race??? Maybe because the course if flat it requires different power management???
Correction. First half was 30 minutes and second half is 34.
BlueJersey said:
I just did my first ITT 40k, the day after I did a 70 miles circuit race. Not sure if fatigue may play a role here but I figured these back to back races would put enough training load. The course is flat with tail wind going out and head wind coming back. Average power is about 230w. NP is pretty much the same. Average speed was 23 mph. Time was 1 hour and 5 minutes. Not on a dedicated TT machine. My road bike with mini clip on aero bar and a 60mm Hed front wheel. It took me 37 minutes to reach to the half way point and another 38 minutes heading back.
What puzzled me is that my FT based on NP is 250w. The FT is tested on a very rolling 6 miles circuit. I was thinking a flat 40k TT like this one my average power should be closer to 250w. Maybe my aero position may play a role or/and fatigue from yesterday's race??? Maybe because the course if flat it requires different power management???
I've always heard that the aero position generally produced less power than a hands-on-the-bars position does but that the increased aerodynamics outweighed the loss of power. So, unless your 250w measurement was actually done with the aero bars, the disparity does not seem all that unusual, especially if you don't regularly train with the aero bars on.
Also if you were tired, are you sure you pushed hard enough to empty the tank? I mean were you giving 100% or 98% because it hurt? Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference, but probably you are correct in assuming it is a combination of being tired, and having a new position.
I think there is definitely an adaptation period with any major position change and that it is common to not be able to produce the same power (initially) in a highly aero position. I think this difference vanishes with practice time in the new position. For that reason, one shouldn't jump to any premature conclusions doing wind tunnel testing in terms of the tradeoff between different aero positions and max sustainable power. I'd rather settle on the most aero position and then learn to produce power in that position.
But, I think you have put your finger on another issue that I think is quite common. That is the difference between a relatively constant power ride and a highly variable power ride. I think it is common to (initially) not be able to match a VP NP with a CP NP. Again, I think this difference vanishes with more practice at CP rides of a similar duration. I think if you did a 1 hr CP ride every week for 4 weeks your CP would gradually increase to 250W +/- 5W.
I just did my first ITT 40k, the day after I did a 70 miles circuit race. Not sure if fatigue may play a role here but I figured these back to back races would put enough training load. The course is flat with tail wind going out and head wind coming back. Average power is about 230w. NP is pretty much the same. Average speed was 23 mph. Time was 1 hour and 5 minutes. Not on a dedicated TT machine. My road bike with mini clip on aero bar and a 60mm Hed front wheel. It took me 37 minutes to reach to the half way point and another 38 minutes heading back.
What puzzled me is that my FT based on NP is 250w. The FT is tested on a very rolling 6 miles circuit. I was thinking a flat 40k TT like this one my average power should be closer to 250w. Maybe my aero position may play a role or/and fatigue from yesterday's race??? Maybe because the course if flat it requires different power management???
I'm not sure why you're confused...as you suggest, residual fatigue and/or a change in position could easily account for the fact that your average power was 8% lower than what you've been calling your functional threshold power based on normalized power data. Now if you'd done the TT in your road position when fresh, there might be reason for concern...but even then it might be that you're simply not used to continously grinding away while on the drops (I'm under the impression that you usually train and race in hilly terrain?).
. Maybe because the course if flat it requires different power management???
That course, which I did as well yesterday, favored slightly more power coming home as there was a slight gain in elevation and a headwind. For the record, my Pave was 340 and pnorm 342 for a time of 54:57. 340 pave was exactly what i thought I could do for that given duration although it was also my first 40k TT. Also I appear to loose nothing in terms of power from my road bike to my TT bike. I trained on it 2/5 days for the last 2-3 weeks for a total of about 15 hours.
No, but I am Victor from Kissena. My team mate Jaoquin clocked 57 minutes with a TT dedicated machine. Another team mate Rufus clocked just under 1 hour with a road bike and TT bar. I only spent 3 sessions, 6 hours, with my TT clip on bar. After the ride my glutes always feeling very sored. Impressive. 54 minutes. I lost 4 minutes on my way back with the same power output. I could have ridden a bit harder on the way back. We were all racing as OSM.
greenrhino said:
That course, which I did as well yesterday, favored slightly more power coming home as there was a slight gain in elevation and a headwind. For the record, my Pave was 340 and pnorm 342 for a time of 54:57. 340 pave was exactly what i thought I could do for that given duration although it was also my first 40k TT. Also I appear to loose nothing in terms of power from my road bike to my TT bike. I trained on it 2/5 days for the last 2-3 weeks for a total of about 15 hours.
Hilly??? Kind of. I usually train in a park with a 6 miles loop. Very rolling. My typical average power is pretty much around 230w with np around 250w. Yesterday course was completely flat. I rarely saw my power going over 280w with any lenght of time. On the way out I tried to hold it around 240w to 250w and throttled down when power hits 270w. On the return trip I was in a survival mode. I was struggling to hold my power around 230w. I think I need to train more on a flatter course with less variation between np and ap.
acoggan said:
I'm not sure why you're confused...as you suggest, residual fatigue and/or a change in position could easily account for the fact that your average power was 8% lower than what you've been calling your functional threshold power based on normalized power data. Now if you'd done the TT in your road position when fresh, there might be reason for concern...but even then it might be that you're simply not used to continously grinding away while on the drops (I'm under the impression that you usually train and race in hilly terrain?).
I know my arms are slightly slopping downward but it does look a bit extreme from the picture. It looks like my head causes too much of a drag in relation to my back. I think my back is flat but not really low enough.
BlueJersey said:
I just did my first ITT 40k, the day after I did a 70 miles circuit race. Not sure if fatigue may play a role here but I figured these back to back races would put enough training load. The course is flat with tail wind going out and head wind coming back. Average power is about 230w. NP is pretty much the same. Average speed was 23 mph. Time was 1 hour and 5 minutes. Not on a dedicated TT machine. My road bike with mini clip on aero bar and a 60mm Hed front wheel. It took me 37 minutes to reach to the half way point and another 38 minutes heading back.
What puzzled me is that my FT based on NP is 250w. The FT is tested on a very rolling 6 miles circuit. I was thinking a flat 40k TT like this one my average power should be closer to 250w. Maybe my aero position may play a role or/and fatigue from yesterday's race??? Maybe because the course if flat it requires different power management???
It's always hard to tell from any photo, but especially so for one from the side. Frontal area is best judged with a head-on shot from straight ahead, usually done on a trainer. For a lot of riders, getting "higher" is worthwhile because it allows them to get more than that much narrower.
I know my arms are slightly slopping downward but it does look a bit extreme from the picture. It looks like my head causes too much of a drag in relation to my back. I think my back is flat but not really low enough.
Now I'm no expert(I'm pretty new to riding) but I mainly do Tri's and everyone uses aero bars so I've spent some good time looking at and asking about positions.
Here is my take on it. You're position is too up-right, but that's due to you're bike and bars. With out going out and buying a whole nother bike, I think you could improve you're tuck a good bit.
Longer clip-on aero bars would help out alot. They would get you further down, letting your chest catch less air. You could also get a extra stem for TTs only, that is a little bit shorter and goes more vertical then straight out, or down. Which most road bikes stems do. With this you can get tighter tuck.
How about using a stem with more negative angle???
Smilf said:
Now I'm no expert(I'm pretty new to riding) but I mainly do Tri's and everyone uses aero bars so I've spent some good time looking at and asking about positions.
Here is my take on it. You're position is too up-right, but that's due to you're bike and bars. With out going out and buying a whole nother bike, I think you could improve you're tuck a good bit.
Longer clip-on aero bars would help out alot. They would get you further down, letting your chest catch less air. You could also get a extra stem for TTs only, that is a little bit shorter and goes more vertical then straight out, or down. Which most road bikes stems do. With this you can get tighter tuck.
I just did my first ITT 40k, the day after I did a 70 miles circuit race. Not sure if fatigue may play a role here but I figured these back to back races would put enough training load. The course is flat with tail wind going out and head wind coming back. Average power is about 230w. NP is pretty much the same. Average speed was 23 mph. Time was 1 hour and 5 minutes. Not on a dedicated TT machine. My road bike with mini clip on aero bar and a 60mm Hed front wheel. It took me 37 minutes to reach to the half way point and another 38 minutes heading back.
What puzzled me is that my FT based on NP is 250w. The FT is tested on a very rolling 6 miles circuit. I was thinking a flat 40k TT like this one my average power should be closer to 250w. Maybe my aero position may play a role or/and fatigue from yesterday's race??? Maybe because the course if flat it requires different power management???
Hi BJ, I was urprised to see you first registered in Jan 2005, and I assume you've been training and riding hard from at least that date. You also seem pretty young (compared with me that is 🙂 ) You mention an FT of 250Watts - have you plateaued around that figure? May I ask you what sort of training you do? The reason I ask is because I'm new to this game and if you have been doing 20/30 min intervals etc., and plateaud at around 250Watts then it seems we are all programmed (genetically) to be able to attain a certain level and no amount of training will alter that MAX. I don't think I've quite reached my max as yet, but it seems it could be just around the corner.🙁
I know my arms are slightly slopping downward but it does look a bit extreme from the picture. It looks like my head causes too much of a drag in relation to my back. I think my back is flat but not really low enough.
My thoughts:
1. Lower! A decent bit lower. 2. A little bit longer-or a lot longer if you can move your seat up & forward (and have time to train that way) 3. Can't tell from the pic, but have your arms narrow enough to shield your knees-but wide enough to allow you to "shrug."
1. Lower! A decent bit lower. 2. A little bit longer-or a lot longer if you can move your seat up & forward (and have time to train that way) 3. Can't tell from the pic, but have your arms narrow enough to shield your knees-but wide enough to allow you to "shrug."
It is hard to tell from the side, but you look OK to me (many pros are worse!)... but for god's sake get that bottle out of your jersey and back on the frame. 😉
I have been racing for 4 years and this year is my 3rd season as a cat4. This season, started on 10/05, was my first year structuring my training using a power meter. I never knew how to use my power meter when I got it on 2/05. I started off 10/05 with a 20 minutes power of 245w. Never knew my actual FT since I either didn't do any 1 hour TT or just couldn't see myself to be able to TT for 1 hour. I think now my 20 minutes power is about 260w. Right now, I can easily go out and ride at subthreshold for 1 hour and 30 minutes. I didn't do any 5 minutes power intervals until late May because I want to avoid feeling burning out. I don't think I have reached my peak.
Sillyoldtwit said:
Hi BJ, I was urprised to see you first registered in Jan 2005, and I assume you've been training and riding hard from at least that date. You also seem pretty young (compared with me that is 🙂 ) You mention an FT of 250Watts - have you plateaued around that figure? May I ask you what sort of training you do? The reason I ask is because I'm new to this game and if you have been doing 20/30 min intervals etc., and plateaud at around 250Watts then it seems we are all programmed (genetically) to be able to attain a certain level and no amount of training will alter that MAX. I don't think I've quite reached my max as yet, but it seems it could be just around the corner.🙁
The reason I ask is because I'm new to this game and if you have been doing 20/30 min intervals etc., and plateaud at around 250Watts then it seems we are all programmed (genetically) to be able to attain a certain level and no amount of training will alter that MAX.
It's true that we all have a genetic potential, but it's way too soon to begin predicting where you are going to peak after only 5 months of structured training. When you peak, you'll know it. In the meantime, enjoy the elevator ride.😄
It's true that we all have a genetic potential, but it's way too soon to begin predicting where you are going to peak after only 5 months of structured training. When you peak, you'll know it. In the meantime, enjoy the elevator ride.😄
