Much Ado Abouth Nothing

"Prot" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

From CyclingNews:

cyclingnews.comnews.phpOpen ↗
r22news Verbruggen said he still believes "the majority of
the pelotón is clean, I guarantee it."

Case closed. Problem solved.

I wonder what the terms of the guarantee are.

"Prot" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

From CyclingNews:

cyclingnews.comnews.phpOpen ↗
r22news Verbruggen said he still believes "the majority of
the pelotón is clean, I guarantee it."

Case closed. Problem solved.

I like your new nickname :-) I take it you know what it
means in Flemish. Interestingly, that's what they are
calling the ProTour in Belgium...

Jeff

Prot said:

From CyclingNews:

cyclingnews.comnews.phpOpen ↗
r22news Verbruggen said he still believes "the majority of
the pelotón is clean, I guarantee it."

Case closed. Problem solved.

I was wondering if Hein hadn't been smoking bad Hash.

That statement is full of inaccuracies.

The actual facts are greatly at variance with what Hein
was spouting.

Insofar as I have any information Manzano was not paid for
the press interviews.

And the peloton (taken as a whole) is no cleaner than it was
in the Halcyon PDM Festina days I'm sure. I had thought that
it was, but recent events have changed my mind. (Geez,
didn't Sean move from PDM to Festina?)

Now despite the numerous critical e-mails I have sent him
over the years, I have always been a big supporter of Hein
Verbruggen and having regard to his position, Hein could not
afford to say anything much other than what he did say. I
just thought the slurs on Manzano's name and reputation were
a little ``trop''.

And as far as replacing him goes, it would be difficult to
find anyone who could handle the position better.

But in the drug testing vein (no pun intended) I've come
to the conclusion that the tests are not revealing the
whole story.

Several riders have been implicated in doping schemes
notwithstanding that they have been tested previously on
numerous occasions with negative results. Manzano made a lot
of sense as far as I am concerned. Particularly the
allegations that the root cause of the doping is in the team
management and medical cadre. Knowing how to avoid positives
takes an intimate knowledge of the rider and precise and
detailed knowledge of the characteristics of the doping
agent or agents of choice. No rider can do this on his own.

--
le Vent a Dos Davey Crockett Six-Day site:
members.rogers.comsixday.htmlOpen ↗

Davey Crockett <[email hidden]> schreef in
berichtnieuws 87hdvcxm8l.fsf@cpe000423176ea9-
cm0f2069983361.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com...

Quoted message said:

Now despite the numerous critical e-mails I have sent him
over the years,

I have always been a big supporter of Hein Verbruggen and
having regard to his position, Hein could not afford to
say anything much other than what he did say. I just
thought the slurs on Manzano's name and reputation were a
little ``trop''.

But what else can he do? If he admitted that Manzano was
right, he would indirectly be accusing many riders that are
(or were!) part of Kelme, because Manzano states that the
drugs were forced on him. If Manzano's story is correct, it
is only logical that Botero, Heras, Sevilla and Valverde
used dope as well. The credibility of the teams that hired
some of these (the first three, obviously) is also called
into question: did they stop using dope when they switched
teams or not? Did they tell their new team about the way
they were treated at Kelme? If they could also perform well
without doping, why did they not leave earlier? Why hasn't
Botero ridden well since he left Kelme?

The real question is: are other teams different? Verbruggen
would like us to believe so, but I suspect otherwise.

Jonathan.

Brian Lafferty said:

I wonder what the terms of the guarantee are.

I think he only guaranteed that he thinks the peleton is
mostly clean. Or that he thinks. The rest is kind of up
in the air.

There is a political career for this guy, I think.

Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
two wheels...

"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Davey Crockett <[email hidden]> schreef in
berichtnieuws 87hdvcxm8l.fsf@cpe000423176ea9-
cm0f2069983361.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com...

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Why hasn't Botero ridden well since he left Kelme?

The real question is: are other teams different?
Verbruggen would like us

to

Quoted message said:

believe so, but I suspect otherwise.

Jonathan.

Obviously Botero hasn't performed well after Kelme and that
would lead me to suspect otherwise ( the other, otherwise)

But seriously, I think the interesting way this whole
story can turn doesn't focus on individual riders. The
real issue is staff accountability and the enforcement
culture in Spain.

Manzano implicated three doctors with the main one
(somebody correct me if I'm wrong) being with Once and now
with Liberty Seguros. Who knows what lifting up that rock
will reveal.

Manzano also talks often about the lack of seriousness with
which the issue is treated in Spain. A lot of foreign
riders seemed to choose Spain as a base. Is it because the
enforcement climate is as favorable as the weather? I am
not saying that it is the reason, but if it is and all of
the sudden it changes will it catch any riders or suppliers
off guard?

I still believe that a well trained rider who is clean can
compete with a doped rider who does not have as
sophisticated a training regiment. I believe pro cycling
contains its fair share of both.

Davey Crockett said:

Knowing how to avoid positives takes an intimate knowledge
of the rider and precise and detailed knowledge of the
characteristics of the doping agent or agents of choice.
No rider can do this on his own.

You mean, like getting around a cortisone positive by
drinking 3 litres of water?

I found the Manzano interview in cyclingnews.com fascinating
because it would suggest that doping isn't universal -- it's
targeted. If that's so, then the question is, to whom is it
targeted? And the natural follow-up is, what are the
characteristics of those who have been caught doping, and
are they consistent or inconsistent with the hypothesis
about targeting?

"Brian Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Prot" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:iCNhc.18371-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

From CyclingNews:

cyclingnews.comnews.phpOpen ↗
apr22news Verbruggen said he still believes "the
majority of the pelotón is clean,

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

guarantee it."

Case closed. Problem solved.

I wonder what the terms of the guarantee are.

So, Brian, what drugs do you suppose Lance needed to win
that sprint today?

"Davey Crockett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Insofar as I have any information Manzano was not paid for
the press

interviews.

Apparently he was. Else why would Verbruggen make such a
statement?

Quoted message said:

And the peloton (taken as a whole) is no cleaner than it
was in the

Halcyon PDM

Quoted message said:

Festina days I'm sure. I had thought that it was, but
recent events have

changed

Quoted message said:

my mind. (Geez, didn't Sean move from PDM to Festina?)

Look, the druggies all hang together and they tell
themselves that "everyone is doing it". So when one of them
tells you that "everyone is doing it" that doesn't carry
much weight. Verbruggen made a statement - that they only
get some 1.5% positives and that compares with other sports
that are tested at far longer intervals.

Other tests SUGGEST that perhaps a third of the peloton has
used EPO which is very difficult to find directly and the
only indirect method they've been able to agree on is high
hematocrit. Since the tests that were used for this
determination were believed to be accurate but upon which
there is no real scientific study, they can't be sure that
their results are indicative.

Unless you're Brian Lafferty and have hard knowledge that
every person in the peloton is using performance
enhancing drugs (Gee, the proof of that is that Brian
can't keep up with them on one of their easy recovery
rides) Hein Verbruggen's statements are pretty much as
accurate as you can find.

Quoted message said:

Now despite the numerous critical e-mails I have sent him
over the years, I have always been a big supporter of Hein
Verbruggen and having regard to his position, Hein could
not afford to say anything much other than

what

Quoted message said:

he did say. I just thought the slurs on Manzano's name and
reputation were a little ``trop''.

Manzano has been telling HIS story. That is HIS version of
the truth. And it's his version that is being compared to
reality. As far as his direct evidence is concerned I
believe him implicitly. But his indirect ideas of who is and
who isn't doping really are a problem.

Quoted message said:

And as far as replacing him goes, it would be difficult to
find anyone who could handle the position better.

It's very easy to criticize someone who is doing their job
when you haven't had to do it yourself.

Quoted message said:

But in the drug testing vein (no pun intended) I've come
to the conclusion that the tests are not revealing the
whole story.

The problem is that you have no idea of just how sensitive
the testing methods presently available are. BUT there are
rules and regulations that must be followed to the letter
because the results of false claims can be devastating to a
rider's career and could lead to internal and external legal
strife if handled recklessly.

While I want to see dopers caught, I'm not willing to
sacrifice a few good men through mistakes.

"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If Manzano's story is correct, it is only logical that
Botero, Heras, Sevilla and Valverde used dope as well.

Why would that be? If Heras didn't need dope to win the
Vuelta then explain why they would have forced it on him at
another time? Same with Valverde and Sevilla.

See - "under Doctor's orders" leaves it up to the
performance of the riders and the judgement of the doctors
who they will and won't suggest dope to. All you have to do
is read the Voet and Kimmage books to see that they knew men
who would refuse to allow ANY doping.

Doping is a problem. 30% of the peloton using performance
enhancing drugs is a serious problem all right. But that
means that 70% aren't.

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Brian Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message -"]news:[email hidden]-
link.net...

Quoted message said:

"Prot" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:iCNhc.183-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

From CyclingNews:

cyclingnews.comnews.phpOpen ↗
4/apr22news Verbruggen said he still believes "the
majority of the pelotón is

clean,

Quoted message said:

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

guarantee it."

Case closed. Problem solved.

I wonder what the terms of the guarantee are.

So, Brian, what drugs do you suppose Lance needed to win
that sprint

today?

Damn, Tom. After that letter to VeloNews it looked like they
got your drug mix correct at long last. And now you need to
see the docs again. Good luck.

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Davey Crockett" <[email hidden]> wrote
in message

news:87hdvcxm8l.fsf@cpe000423176ea9-
cm0f2069983361.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Insofar as I have any information Manzano was not paid
for the press

interviews.

Apparently he was. Else why would Verbruggen make such a
statement?

IIRC, everthing I've read has indicated that he has not
received money for his story. He has consistenly stated that
his motive was revenge for the way he felt he was treated by
Kelme management. Why would Hein say otherwise? You think
about it and get back to us.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And the peloton (taken as a whole) is no cleaner than it
was in the

Halcyon PDM

Quoted message said:

Festina days I'm sure. I had thought that it was, but
recent events have

changed

Quoted message said:

my mind. (Geez, didn't Sean move from PDM to Festina?)

Look, the druggies all hang together and they tell
themselves that

"everyone

Quoted message said:

is doing it". So when one of them tells you that "everyone
is doing it"

that

Quoted message said:

doesn't carry much weight. Verbruggen made a statement -
that they only

get

Quoted message said:

some 1.5% positives and that compares with other sports
that are tested at far longer intervals.

Other tests SUGGEST that perhaps a third of the peloton
has used EPO which is very difficult to find directly and
the only indirect method they've

been

Quoted message said:

able to agree on is high hematocrit. Since the tests that
were used for

this

Quoted message said:

determination were believed to be accurate but upon which
there is no real scientific study, they can't be sure that
their results are indicative.

Those tests coming up with 30% suspected drug use relate to
French based cyclists who are tested (health profiled) with
greater rigor than countries such as Spain. Recall, if you
can, that [censored] Voight spoke of Spain as a major source for
the drugs that he obtained for Festina. Also, there was a
meeting this past Fall in Spain about the need to address
the drug problem with Spanish teams because there was a
problem about to blow up in the UCI's face (as it now has).

Quoted message said:

Unless you're Brian Lafferty and have hard knowledge that
every person in the peloton is using performance enhancing
drugs (Gee, the proof of that

is

Quoted message said:

that Brian can't keep up with them on one of their easy
recovery rides)

Hein

Quoted message said:

Verbruggen's statements are pretty much as accurate as you
can find.

You really need kaopectate for your brain, Tom.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Now despite the numerous critical e-mails I have sent
him over the

years,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have always been a big supporter of Hein Verbruggen
and having regard to his position, Hein could not afford
to say anything much other than

what

Quoted message said:

he did say. I just thought the slurs on Manzano's name
and reputation

were

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a little ``trop''.

Manzano has been telling HIS story. That is HIS version of
the truth. And it's his version that is being compared to
reality. As far as his direct evidence is concerned I
believe him implicitly. But his indirect ideas of who is
and who isn't doping really are a problem.

His version of the truth, indeed. Replete with written
prescriptions from the Kelme doctors. There are always
two or more sides to the story but his story is too
similar to other riders who have spoke out to be
dismissed as Hein would love to do but can't.

[Remainder of Kunich mental trots snipped]

Tom Kunich said:

Doping is a problem. 30% of the peloton using performance
enhancing drugs is a serious problem all right. But that
means that 70% aren't.

From that recent French report, about 30% of the supposedly
squeaky clean French riders/French teams are showing blood
abnormalities that are consistent with epo abuse...and they
aren't "testing positive". I presume those samples were
also tested directly for epo. If those riders really were
clean and those blood abnormalities are a result of super
hard training or altitude or eating too much fiber, the
Australian reticulocyte test will have to be re-examined
for eficacy.

I think it's more likely that more and more is being
revealed about what it means to fail a drug test. Remember,
those French licensed riders are supposed to be the most
tested, and therefor cleanest riders in the bunch. In my own
opinion, I'm knocking 70% clean down to about 54.5%.

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:-
[email hidden]...

Those tests coming up with 30% suspected drug use relate
to French based cyclists who are tested (health profiled)
with greater rigor than

countries

Quoted message said:

such as Spain. Recall, if you can, that [censored] Voight spoke
of Spain as a major source for the drugs that he obtained
for Festina.

So, Brian, do you suppose that's because in France you can't
get these drugs without a prescription and in Spain you can
buy it over-the-counter?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Manzano has been telling HIS story. That is HIS version
of the truth.

And

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it's his version that is being compared to reality. As
far as his direct evidence is concerned I believe him
implicitly. But his indirect ideas

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

who is and who isn't doping really are a problem.

His version of the truth, indeed. Replete with written
prescriptions from the Kelme doctors.

So you are saying that Jesus has written prescriptions for
riders other than himself? Of course you are. But then
that's because EVERYONE is doping in your book. There are no
clean riders and you are hoping to the bottom of your heart
that someone proves this for you.

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:vi-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message new-
s:[email hidden]...

Those tests coming up with 30% suspected drug use relate
to French based cyclists who are tested (health
profiled) with greater rigor than

countries

Quoted message said:

such as Spain. Recall, if you can, that [censored] Voight
spoke of Spain as

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

major source for the drugs that he obtained for Festina.

So, Brian, do you suppose that's because in France you
can't get these

drugs

Quoted message said:

without a prescription and in Spain you can buy it over-the-
counter?

No.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Manzano has been telling HIS story. That is HIS
version of the truth.

And

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it's his version that is being compared to reality. As
far as his

direct

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

evidence is concerned I believe him implicitly. But
his indirect ideas

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

who is and who isn't doping really are a problem.

His version of the truth, indeed. Replete with
written

prescriptions

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

from the Kelme doctors.

So you are saying that Jesus has written prescriptions for
riders other

than

Quoted message said:

himself? Of course you are. But then that's because
EVERYONE is doping in your book. There are no clean riders
and you are hoping to the bottom of your heart that
someone proves this for you.

No. Manzano has said that he has prescriptions for himself.
He has specifically stated that he has been relating his own
experiences with Kelme. It should be fairly easy for the
authorities in Spain to determine who a specific doctor has
be giving prescriptions to.

No to "everyone." I'm fairly certain that Bassons and
Armstrong were/are clean. ;-)

Tom, have you read [censored] Voet's book?

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

No. Manzano has said that he has prescriptions for
himself. He has specifically stated that he has been
relating his own experiences with Kelme. It should be
fairly easy for the authorities in Spain to determine who
a specific doctor has be giving prescriptions to.

Is that so? Explain how that would be. Is this similar to
the pharmacy system in Mexico where you can drop into your
local store and buy anything they have in the place?

Quoted message said:

No to "everyone." I'm fairly certain that Bassons and
Armstrong were/are clean. ;-)

Yeah, you've just dropped those broad hints about Lance
because you think he's clean and you just want to make sure
he's not to cocky about it.