Much Ado Abouth Nothing

"Prot" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

From CyclingNews:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/apr04/apr22news
Verbruggen said he still believes "the majority of the pelotón is clean, I
guarantee it."

Case closed. Problem solved.

I wonder what the terms of the guarantee are.

"Prot" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

From CyclingNews:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/apr04/apr22news
Verbruggen said he still believes "the majority of the pelotón is clean, I
guarantee it."

Case closed. Problem solved.

I like your new nickname :-) I take it you know what it means in Flemish.
Interestingly, that's what they are calling the ProTour in Belgium...

Jeff

Prot said:

From CyclingNews:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/apr04/apr22news
Verbruggen said he still believes "the majority of the pelotón is clean, I
guarantee it."

Case closed. Problem solved.

I was wondering if Hein hadn't been smoking bad Hash.

That statement is full of inaccuracies.

The actual facts are greatly at variance with what Hein was spouting.

Insofar as I have any information Manzano was not paid for the press interviews.

And the peloton (taken as a whole) is no cleaner than it was in the Halcyon PDM Festina days I'm sure. I had thought that it was, but recent events have changed my mind. (Geez, didn't Sean move from PDM to Festina?)

Now despite the numerous critical e-mails I have sent him over the years, I have always been a big supporter of Hein Verbruggen and having regard to his position, Hein could not afford to say anything much other than what he did say. I just thought the slurs on Manzano's name and reputation were a little ``trop''.

And as far as replacing him goes, it would be difficult to find anyone who could handle the position better.

But in the drug testing vein (no pun intended) I've come to the conclusion that the tests are not revealing the whole story.

Several riders have been implicated in doping schemes notwithstanding that they have been tested previously on numerous occasions with negative results. Manzano made a lot of sense as far as I am concerned. Particularly the allegations that the root cause of the doping is in the team management and medical cadre. Knowing how to avoid positives takes an intimate knowledge of the rider and precise and detailed knowledge of the characteristics of the doping agent or agents of choice. No rider can do this on his own.

--
le Vent a Dos
Davey Crockett
Six-Day site: http://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html

Davey Crockett <[email hidden]> schreef in berichtnieuws
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Now despite the numerous critical e-mails I have sent him over the years,

I have always been a big supporter of Hein Verbruggen and having regard to
his position, Hein could not afford to say anything much other than what he
did say. I just thought the slurs on Manzano's name and reputation were a
little ``trop''.

But what else can he do? If he admitted that Manzano was right, he would
indirectly be accusing many riders that are (or were!) part of Kelme,
because Manzano states that the drugs were forced on him. If Manzano's story
is correct, it is only logical that Botero, Heras, Sevilla and Valverde used
dope as well. The credibility of the teams that hired some of these (the
first three, obviously) is also called into question: did they stop using
dope when they switched teams or not? Did they tell their new team about the
way they were treated at Kelme? If they could also perform well without
doping, why did they not leave earlier? Why hasn't Botero ridden well since
he left Kelme?

The real question is: are other teams different? Verbruggen would like us to
believe so, but I suspect otherwise.

Jonathan.

Brian Lafferty said:

I wonder what the terms of the guarantee are.

I think he only guaranteed that he thinks the peleton is mostly clean.
Or that he thinks. The rest is kind of up in the air.

There is a political career for this guy, I think.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Davey Crockett <[email hidden]> schreef in berichtnieuws
[email hidden]...

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Why hasn't Botero ridden well since
he left Kelme?

The real question is: are other teams different? Verbruggen would like us

to

Quoted message said:

believe so, but I suspect otherwise.

Jonathan.

Obviously Botero hasn't performed well after Kelme and that would lead me
to suspect otherwise ( the other, otherwise)

But seriously, I think the interesting way this whole story can turn doesn't
focus on individual riders. The real issue is staff accountability and the
enforcement culture in Spain.

Manzano implicated three doctors with the main one (somebody correct me if
I'm wrong) being with Once and now with Liberty Seguros. Who knows what
lifting up that rock will reveal.

Manzano also talks often about the lack of seriousness with which the issue
is treated in Spain. A lot of foreign riders seemed to choose Spain as a
base. Is it because the enforcement climate is as favorable as the weather?
I am not saying that it is the reason, but if it is and all of the sudden it
changes will it catch any riders or suppliers off guard?

I still believe that a well trained rider who is clean can compete with a
doped rider who does not have as sophisticated a training regiment. I
believe pro cycling contains its fair share of both.

Davey Crockett said:

Knowing how to avoid positives
takes an intimate knowledge of the rider and precise and detailed
knowledge of the characteristics of the doping agent or agents of
choice. No rider can do this on his own.

You mean, like getting around a cortisone positive by drinking 3 litres of
water?

I found the Manzano interview in cyclingnews.com fascinating because it
would suggest that doping isn't universal -- it's targeted. If that's so,
then the question is, to whom is it targeted? And the natural follow-up
is, what are the characteristics of those who have been caught doping, and
are they consistent or inconsistent with the hypothesis about targeting?

"Brian Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Prot" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

From CyclingNews:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/apr04/apr22news
Verbruggen said he still believes "the majority of the pelotón is clean,

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

guarantee it."

Case closed. Problem solved.

I wonder what the terms of the guarantee are.

So, Brian, what drugs do you suppose Lance needed to win that sprint today?

"Davey Crockett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Insofar as I have any information Manzano was not paid for the press

interviews.

Apparently he was. Else why would Verbruggen make such a statement?

Quoted message said:

And the peloton (taken as a whole) is no cleaner than it was in the

Halcyon PDM

Quoted message said:

Festina days I'm sure. I had thought that it was, but recent events have

changed

Quoted message said:

my mind. (Geez, didn't Sean move from PDM to Festina?)

Look, the druggies all hang together and they tell themselves that "everyone
is doing it". So when one of them tells you that "everyone is doing it" that
doesn't carry much weight. Verbruggen made a statement - that they only get
some 1.5% positives and that compares with other sports that are tested at
far longer intervals.

Other tests SUGGEST that perhaps a third of the peloton has used EPO which
is very difficult to find directly and the only indirect method they've been
able to agree on is high hematocrit. Since the tests that were used for this
determination were believed to be accurate but upon which there is no real
scientific study, they can't be sure that their results are indicative.

Unless you're Brian Lafferty and have hard knowledge that every person in
the peloton is using performance enhancing drugs (Gee, the proof of that is
that Brian can't keep up with them on one of their easy recovery rides) Hein
Verbruggen's statements are pretty much as accurate as you can find.

Quoted message said:

Now despite the numerous critical e-mails I have sent him over the years,
I have always been a big supporter of Hein Verbruggen and having regard
to his position, Hein could not afford to say anything much other than

what

Quoted message said:

he did say. I just thought the slurs on Manzano's name and reputation were
a little ``trop''.

Manzano has been telling HIS story. That is HIS version of the truth. And
it's his version that is being compared to reality. As far as his direct
evidence is concerned I believe him implicitly. But his indirect ideas of
who is and who isn't doping really are a problem.

Quoted message said:

And as far as replacing him goes, it would be difficult to find anyone who
could handle the position better.

It's very easy to criticize someone who is doing their job when you haven't
had to do it yourself.

Quoted message said:

But in the drug testing vein (no pun intended) I've come to the conclusion
that the tests are not revealing the whole story.

The problem is that you have no idea of just how sensitive the testing
methods presently available are. BUT there are rules and regulations that
must be followed to the letter because the results of false claims can be
devastating to a rider's career and could lead to internal and external
legal strife if handled recklessly.

While I want to see dopers caught, I'm not willing to sacrifice a few good
men through mistakes.

"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If Manzano's story is correct, it is only logical that Botero,
Heras, Sevilla and Valverde used dope as well.

Why would that be? If Heras didn't need dope to win the Vuelta then explain
why they would have forced it on him at another time? Same with Valverde and
Sevilla.

See - "under Doctor's orders" leaves it up to the performance of the riders
and the judgement of the doctors who they will and won't suggest dope to.
All you have to do is read the Voet and Kimmage books to see that they knew
men who would refuse to allow ANY doping.

Doping is a problem. 30% of the peloton using performance enhancing drugs is
a serious problem all right. But that means that 70% aren't.

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Brian Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Prot" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

From CyclingNews:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/apr04/apr22news
Verbruggen said he still believes "the majority of the pelotón is

clean,

Quoted message said:

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

guarantee it."

Case closed. Problem solved.

I wonder what the terms of the guarantee are.

So, Brian, what drugs do you suppose Lance needed to win that sprint

today?

Damn, Tom. After that letter to VeloNews it looked like they got your drug
mix correct at long last. And now you need to see the docs again. Good
luck.

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Davey Crockett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Insofar as I have any information Manzano was not paid for the press

interviews.

Apparently he was. Else why would Verbruggen make such a statement?

IIRC, everthing I've read has indicated that he has not received money for
his story. He has consistenly stated that his motive was revenge for the
way he felt he was treated by Kelme management. Why would Hein say
otherwise? You think about it and get back to us.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And the peloton (taken as a whole) is no cleaner than it was in the

Halcyon PDM

Quoted message said:

Festina days I'm sure. I had thought that it was, but recent events have

changed

Quoted message said:

my mind. (Geez, didn't Sean move from PDM to Festina?)

Look, the druggies all hang together and they tell themselves that

"everyone

Quoted message said:

is doing it". So when one of them tells you that "everyone is doing it"

that

Quoted message said:

doesn't carry much weight. Verbruggen made a statement - that they only

get

Quoted message said:

some 1.5% positives and that compares with other sports that are tested at
far longer intervals.

Other tests SUGGEST that perhaps a third of the peloton has used EPO which
is very difficult to find directly and the only indirect method they've

been

Quoted message said:

able to agree on is high hematocrit. Since the tests that were used for

this

Quoted message said:

determination were believed to be accurate but upon which there is no real
scientific study, they can't be sure that their results are indicative.

Those tests coming up with 30% suspected drug use relate to French based
cyclists who are tested (health profiled) with greater rigor than countries
such as Spain. Recall, if you can, that [censored] Voight spoke of Spain as a
major source for the drugs that he obtained for Festina. Also, there was a
meeting this past Fall in Spain about the need to address the drug problem
with Spanish teams because there was a problem about to blow up in the UCI's
face (as it now has).

Quoted message said:

Unless you're Brian Lafferty and have hard knowledge that every person in
the peloton is using performance enhancing drugs (Gee, the proof of that

is

Quoted message said:

that Brian can't keep up with them on one of their easy recovery rides)

Hein

Quoted message said:

Verbruggen's statements are pretty much as accurate as you can find.

You really need kaopectate for your brain, Tom.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Now despite the numerous critical e-mails I have sent him over the

years,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have always been a big supporter of Hein Verbruggen and having regard
to his position, Hein could not afford to say anything much other than

what

Quoted message said:

he did say. I just thought the slurs on Manzano's name and reputation

were

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a little ``trop''.

Manzano has been telling HIS story. That is HIS version of the truth. And
it's his version that is being compared to reality. As far as his direct
evidence is concerned I believe him implicitly. But his indirect ideas of
who is and who isn't doping really are a problem.

His version of the truth, indeed. Replete with written prescriptions
from the Kelme doctors. There are always two or more sides to the story but
his story is too similar to other riders who have spoke out to be dismissed
as Hein would love to do but can't.

[Remainder of Kunich mental trots snipped]

Quoted message said:

From: "B. Lafferty"

Quoted message said:

He has consistenly stated that his motive was revenge for the
way he felt he was treated by Kelme management.

Revenge isn't exactly a truth drug.

So, what did you think of the stages today, BL? You know, Tour of Georgia, the
ones Lance won? TT maybe a gimme, but a fast downhill bunch sprint? Did you
know that part of the new training regime this year includes pulling his kids
around the Hill Country in a trailer? Pretty effective, apparently. --Tom
Paterson

"Tom Paterson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From: "B. Lafferty"

Quoted message said:

He has consistenly stated that his motive was revenge for the
way he felt he was treated by Kelme management.

Revenge isn't exactly a truth drug.

It tends to be more believable than money as a motivator, especially if
there is physical evidence to back up the story. Ask any prosecutor.

Quoted message said:

So, what did you think of the stages today, BL? You know, Tour of Georgia,

the

Quoted message said:

ones Lance won? TT maybe a gimme, but a fast downhill bunch sprint?

I really don't know what to think. 64 seconds over Bobby J? Is that
impressive? Do you conclude from today's sprint that Armstrong will be
contesting field sprints a la Hinault come July?

< Did you know that part of the new training regime this year includes
pulling his kids

Quoted message said:

around the Hill Country in a trailer? Pretty effective, apparently.

I didn't but, somehow I don't think that's any more a key part of his
training to peak in July than humping Sheryl between now and then.

Quoted message said:

From: "B. Lafferty"

(I noted):

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Revenge isn't exactly a truth drug.

(B.L. responded):

Quoted message said:

It tends to be more believable than money as a motivator, especially if
there is physical evidence to back up the story. Ask any prosecutor.

Just how much more believeable would you say revenge-motivated testimony is
than that paid for in cash, Mr. Lafferty? Could you express that "tendency" as
a percentage, perhaps?

(I asked):

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, what did you think of the stages today, BL? You know, Tour of Georgia,

the ones Lance won? TT maybe a gimme, but a fast downhill bunch sprint?

(B. L. replied):

Quoted message said:

I really don't know what to think.

I'm sure you have some reaction--

< 64 seconds over Bobby J? Is that

Quoted message said:

impressive? Do you conclude from today's sprint that Armstrong will be
contesting field sprints a la Hinault come >July?

Bobby J? Well he did podium at the TdF. Stranger things have happened than a
return to form, esp. with a new DS he seems happier with. Time will tell, and
with Lance's TdF efforts, also. Field sprints a la Hinault a def. long shot.
Maybe today showed a first step... Remember, he used to be a mediocre TT'er,
too. True, some people say one can't learn to TT or sprint, that the abilities
are inborn, there or not there.

(I asked):

< Did you know that part of the new training regime this year includes

Quoted message said:

pulling his kids

Quoted message said:

around the Hill Country in a trailer? >>Pretty effective, apparently.

(B.L. replied):

Quoted message said:

I didn't but, somehow I don't think that's any more a key part of his
training to peak in July than humping >Sheryl between now and then.

A key part of life. Showing his compartmentalizing skills again, isn't he
(racing successfully in warm-up races, time with kids, love life)? The
pejorative speaks to jealousy. Denied? --TP

"Tom Paterson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Just how much more believeable would you say revenge-motivated testimony

is

Quoted message said:

than that paid for in cash, Mr. Lafferty? Could you express that

"tendency" as

Quoted message said:

a percentage, perhaps?

Percentage, no. But a revenge motive supported by some real evidence is
generally more understood and accepted by jurors. At least that's the view
I've heard expressed by a several prosecutors I know with extensive
experience in criminal prosecution. That is not to say that convictions
aren't also obtained via paid informants.

Quoted message said:

(I asked):

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, what did you think of the stages today, BL? You know, Tour of

Georgia,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the ones Lance won? TT maybe a gimme, but a fast downhill bunch sprint?

(B. L. replied):

Quoted message said:

I really don't know what to think.

I'm sure you have some reaction--

< 64 seconds over Bobby J? Is that

Quoted message said:

impressive? Do you conclude from today's sprint that Armstrong will be
contesting field sprints a la Hinault come >July?

Bobby J? Well he did podium at the TdF. Stranger things have happened than

a

Quoted message said:

return to form, esp. with a new DS he seems happier with. Time will tell,

and

Quoted message said:

with Lance's TdF efforts, also.

Time will indeed tell. While Julich is having his rebirth, I don't
think much of his chances in the Tour. Top 25 perhaps with an outside
chance of a stage win.

Quoted message said:

Field sprints a la Hinault a def. long shot.
Maybe today showed a first step... Remember, he used to be a mediocre

TT'er,

Quoted message said:

too. True, some people say one can't learn to TT or sprint, that the

abilities

Quoted message said:

are inborn, there or not there.

So long a shot as to be more than unlikely, unless it's a sprint from a
small breakaway group. Not only is Armstrong no match for the Tour's top
sprinters in form, he isn't about to risk mashing up his body/face as
Hinault did.

Quoted message said:

A key part of life. Showing his compartmentalizing skills again, isn't he
(racing successfully in warm-up races, time with kids, love life)? The
pejorative speaks to jealousy. Denied? --TP

ROTFL

Quoted message said:

From: "B. Lafferty"

Quoted message said:

Percentage, no.

So we're saying less than a hundred.

Quoted message said:

But a revenge motive supported by some real evidence is
generally more understood and accepted by jurors. At least that's the view
I've heard expressed by a several prosecutors I know with extensive
experience in criminal prosecution. That is not to say that convictions
aren't also obtained via paid informants.

I'd say we have revenge and money, as there are lost wages and employment
suitability issues here. I have almost no jury experience but jealousy,
revenge, money-- people will do anything. So it's the evidence that must be
decided on. For example, recently in this very newsgroup, someone was calling
S. Crowe a "washed-up pop singer" when in fact both her single and CD were very
high on the US sales charts; moreover the CD was a "retrospective" of her chart
hits spanning the last ten years or more, at least a few of which she shared
writing credits for. Thus, it would appear that a negative emotion (perhaps
some form of hatred) caused someone to present that which was patently and
wholly false as "true". I should do a search and find out who that was...

[Armstrong as field sprinter, a long shot]

Quoted message said:

So long a shot as to be more than unlikely, unless it's a sprint from a
small breakaway group. Not only is Armstrong no match for the Tour's top
sprinters in form, he isn't about to risk mashing up his body/face as
Hinault did.

True, true, true. The last, especially when unneccessary. Again, calculating,
compartmentalizing. Winning.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The
pejorative speaks to jealousy. Denied?

Quoted message said:

ROTFL

I think we're exaggerating our response here. "See above". --TP

Tom Kunich said:

Doping is a problem. 30% of the peloton using performance enhancing drugs is
a serious problem all right. But that means that 70% aren't.

From that recent French report, about 30% of the supposedly squeaky
clean French riders/French teams are showing blood abnormalities that
are consistent with epo abuse...and they aren't "testing positive". I
presume those samples were also tested directly for epo. If those
riders really were clean and those blood abnormalities are a result of
super hard training or altitude or eating too much fiber, the
Australian reticulocyte test will have to be re-examined for eficacy.

I think it's more likely that more and more is being revealed about
what it means to fail a drug test. Remember, those French licensed
riders are supposed to be the most tested, and therefor cleanest
riders in the bunch. In my own opinion, I'm knocking 70% clean down
to about 54.5%.

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Those tests coming up with 30% suspected drug use relate to French based
cyclists who are tested (health profiled) with greater rigor than

countries

Quoted message said:

such as Spain. Recall, if you can, that [censored] Voight spoke of Spain as a
major source for the drugs that he obtained for Festina.

So, Brian, do you suppose that's because in France you can't get these drugs
without a prescription and in Spain you can buy it over-the-counter?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Manzano has been telling HIS story. That is HIS version of the truth.

And

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it's his version that is being compared to reality. As far as his direct
evidence is concerned I believe him implicitly. But his indirect ideas

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

who is and who isn't doping really are a problem.

His version of the truth, indeed. Replete with written prescriptions
from the Kelme doctors.

So you are saying that Jesus has written prescriptions for riders other than
himself? Of course you are. But then that's because EVERYONE is doping in
your book. There are no clean riders and you are hoping to the bottom of
your heart that someone proves this for you.