MP3 Players

Maggie said:

I don't
think you should have them on when you are cycling in traffic or

where

Quoted message said:

they are crowds of people.

I agree with this. However, at rational volume levels, they have
negligible effect on hearing.

Quoted message said:

We seem to speak only of motorists who hurt cyclists, but there are
many cyclists who have hurt pedestrians...

"Many"? How many? And in what time period?

Quoted message said:

The statistics of cyclists hurting pedestrians was quite high in the
80's, and has dropped considerably.

"High"? How high?

I think you're overstating the problem - or at least, exaggerating your
hints that the problem is large enough to deserve special attention.

My bet is that the number of at-fault cyclists seriously hurting
pedestrians is negligible. In fact, I bet it's so negligible that you
won't be able to find an official agency that bothers to keep track of
the number. If you can find the number, I'd be interested in what it
is.

I could be wrong, of course. But I doubt this is something we need to
worry about very much. Sure, every injury is a terrible tragedy - but
it's more productive to worry about bee sting fatalities.

- Frank Krygowski

Quoted message said:

I could be wrong, of course. But I doubt this is something we need

to

Quoted message said:

worry about very much. Sure, every injury is a terrible tragedy -

but

Quoted message said:

it's more productive to worry about bee sting fatalities.

- Frank Krygowski

The statement I agree with is .....Every injury is a tragedy. Even if
bicycle injuries are not as high as those as inflicted by car, these
accidents still happen. I think it is up to the cyclist to do
whatever they can to prevent this. What shall we say? More people are
killed by cars, so I won't think about safety while on my bike??? I
am not saying the statistics are as high as motorist/pedestrian
accidents....but there are accidents. Cyclists should be aware. I was
reading an article regarding cycling in my are. I thought it was
interesting.

Here is the article I was reading:
The number of reported collisions climbed from around 400 in the early
1980s, steadily up to a high of 707 in 1985, and then dropped even more
steadily to just 298 in 1992 - the lowest number ever recorded.
(Annual fatalities, ranging from 0 to 3, seem to follow no particular
pattern.) The decline is more impressive still when the increase in the
volume of cycling is taken into account.

The Police Department has attributed the impressive drop in
cyclist-pedestrian accidents to its aggressive ticketing policy of
cyclists. There is a certain correlation: from 1985 to 1986, when the
bicycle messenger industry gained visibility and notoriety, the number
of summonses issued to cyclists nearly tripled from 6,578 to 18,130,
while bicycle-pedestrian accidents dropped 11 percent, from 707 to 631.
Yet since then the rate of summonses has dropped back down, to 10,395
in 1990, while bicycle-pedestrian accidents have continued to decline.
Moreover, while there is no record of which party is at fault in
bicycle-pedestrian accidents, clearly a good proportion of them can be
traced to jaywalking, for which the Police Department issued virtually
no summonses.

The bicycling community ascribes the halving in bicycle-pedestrian
accidents since 1985 instead to a gradual mutual accommodation of
cyclists and pedestrians. The increase in accidents occurred in the
mid-1980s, during a big boom in city cycling. As pedestrians and
cyclists have learned to adjust to each other and anticipate each
other's moves, the number has fallen back down.

All Good things,
Maggie

Maggie said:

Quoted message said:

I could be wrong, of course. But I doubt this is something we need

to

Quoted message said:

worry about very much. Sure, every injury is a terrible tragedy -

but

Quoted message said:

it's more productive to worry about bee sting fatalities.

- Frank Krygowski

The statement I agree with is .....Every injury is a tragedy. Even

if

Quoted message said:

bicycle injuries are not as high as those as inflicted by car, these
accidents still happen. I think it is up to the cyclist to do
whatever they can to prevent this. What shall we say? More people

are

Quoted message said:

killed by cars, so I won't think about safety while on my bike???

And sorry, but I have little patience with the "Every injury is a
tragedy" crowd. Most injuries are a long way from being tragedies, and
pretending they're all tragedies leads to some pretty foolish policies.
As an example, "Doing whatever they can" might include, in some
people's minds, forbidding cycling where a sidewalk is adjacent to the
street. So you need to temper your concern with realism.

I

Quoted message said:

am not saying the statistics are as high as motorist/pedestrian
accidents....but there are accidents. Cyclists should be aware. I

was

Quoted message said:

reading an article regarding cycling in my are. I thought it was
interesting.

Here is the article I was reading:
The number of reported collisions climbed from around 400 in the

early

Quoted message said:

1980s, steadily up to a high of 707 in 1985, and then dropped even

more

Quoted message said:

steadily to just 298 in 1992 - the lowest number ever recorded.
(Annual fatalities, ranging from 0 to 3, seem to follow no particular
pattern.) The decline is more impressive still when the increase in

the

Quoted message said:

volume of cycling is taken into account.

707 "collisions" between cyclists and peds, in a 1985 population of
about 240 million? Fatalities ranging from 0 to 3? Someone needs to
study the concept of "negligible."

Yes, cyclists should be aware. The appropriate level of concern for
this "problem" is to say out loud, once a year, "cyclists should watch
for pedestrians." And perhaps twice a year, say "pedestrians should
watch for cyclists" because you know the peds were at fault in a
majority of those cases, by either jaywalking or otherwise jumping out
in front of the cyclist.

It doesn't matter _where_ you say those things. The problem is
negligible, so the response should be proportionate. Say it in your
back yard, if you like. It will do sufficient good.

IOW, it makes more sense to worry about _real_ problems. Like the
horror of bee sting fatalities. ;-)

- Frank Krygowski

Quoted message said:

Maggie said:

Quoted message said:

I could be wrong, of course. But I doubt this is something we need

to

Quoted message said:

worry about very much. Sure, every injury is a terrible tragedy -

but

Quoted message said:

it's more productive to worry about bee sting fatalities.

- Frank Krygowski

The statement I agree with is .....Every injury is a tragedy. Even

if

Quoted message said:

bicycle injuries are not as high as those as inflicted by car, these
accidents still happen. I think it is up to the cyclist to do
whatever they can to prevent this. What shall we say? More people

are

Quoted message said:

killed by cars, so I won't think about safety while on my bike???

And sorry, but I have little patience with the "Every injury is a
tragedy" crowd. Most injuries are a long way from being tragedies, and
pretending they're all tragedies leads to some pretty foolish policies.
As an example, "Doing whatever they can" might include, in some
people's minds, forbidding cycling where a sidewalk is adjacent to the
street. So you need to temper your concern with realism.

I

Quoted message said:

am not saying the statistics are as high as motorist/pedestrian
accidents....but there are accidents. Cyclists should be aware. I

was

Quoted message said:

reading an article regarding cycling in my are. I thought it was
interesting.

Here is the article I was reading:
The number of reported collisions climbed from around 400 in the

early

Quoted message said:

1980s, steadily up to a high of 707 in 1985, and then dropped even

more

Quoted message said:

steadily to just 298 in 1992 - the lowest number ever recorded.
(Annual fatalities, ranging from 0 to 3, seem to follow no particular
pattern.) The decline is more impressive still when the increase in

the

Quoted message said:

volume of cycling is taken into account.

707 "collisions" between cyclists and peds, in a 1985 population of
about 240 million? Fatalities ranging from 0 to 3? Someone needs to
study the concept of "negligible."

However if only 1% of the population ride bikes, then your looking at
707 collisions over a population of 2.4 Million. Expect that only about
10% of all collisions are reported, the rest result in "Watch where the
$#@! your going $#@!#$$", so your looking at probably closer to 7070
collisions over a population of 2.4 Million, or about 295 collisions per
100,000 riders. Still less then the auto-pedestrian collision rate....

W

zamansky <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Andrew Price said:

zamansky wrote -

Quoted message said:

Tell that to my former neighbor whos husband was died as a

direct

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

result of being run into
by a bike messenger.

Details please ?

I don't have all of the details - about a year ago - elderly

gentleman

Quoted message said:

crossing the street (aparently legally) and was hit by a bike
messenger.

MZ

I'm a former messenger. If you're going lay down a statement
like that, unsubstantiated, the burden of proof is on you.

Quoted message said:

crossing the street (aparently legally)

I wish I was paid triple rate for every jaywalker and red light
burner I encountered during my six years working in downtown
Seattle. I broke my collerbone avoiding* one of those jaywalkers
near 1420 5th while trying to make a drop at the Trips (701 5th,
800 5th, 700 5th).

In that enviroment, inattention means injury or death. Among
messenger populations both events occur much less than commonly
supposed. The eight-balls get weeded out and what's left are the
steady riders who understand the rhythm and flow of the street.

http://www.messengers.org/main.html

I took pride in my job, in calculating a route on-the-fly,
executing the plan and in making my picks and drops on time.
Time the lights, intuit who's going where and why, pick the fast
entrance at the drop, and set up for the next stop.

Sorry for the rant.

Also, and this bit at least is on topic,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4435639.stm
My pick for W is Muslimgauze.

199 Mike

*Panic stop at 20mph endo over the bars, land on my radio.

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garmonboezia wrote -

Quoted message said:

I'm a former messenger. If you're going lay down a statement
like that, unsubstantiated, the burden of proof is on you.

I took pride in my job, in calculating a route on-the-fly,
executing the plan and in making my picks and drops on time....

From my observation of messengers in a number of cities this seems to be
their creed.

The local city council here (Sydney, Australia) had a ranting campaign a few
years back calling for licence plates for cycle couriers and regulations
designed to regulate their "dangerous" behaviour.

When called on to produce statistics of deaths, injuries, collisions either
to themselves or to other road and footpath users they looked a bit sheepish
when they could not produce any and it transpired they were really
complaining about their "attitude".

Again from my observation, cycle couriers seem to be very skilful riders,
working for low wages, performing a useful function and saving a lot of
pollution in the way they go about their business - and I for one rather
like their 'tude - they liven and lighten up places that are infested with
way too many dark suits - ride on you crazy diamonds

best, Andrew

garmonboezia cthvlhv@r'lyeh.arg said:

zamansky <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Andrew Price said:

zamansky wrote -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't have all of the details - about a year ago - elderly

gentleman

Quoted message said:

crossing the street (aparently legally) and was hit by a bike
messenger.

MZ

I'm a former messenger. If you're going lay down a statement
like that, unsubstantiated, the burden of proof is on you.

Quoted message said:

crossing the street (aparently legally)

I wish I was paid triple rate for every jaywalker and red light
burner I encountered during my six years working in downtown
Seattle. I broke my collerbone avoiding* one of those jaywalkers
near 1420 5th while trying to make a drop at the Trips (701 5th,
800 5th, 700 5th).

What burden of proof? Fact is jerks come in all forms -- bikers who
don't pay attention to pedestrians, pedestrians who walk 6 accross
oblivious to bikers, rollerbladers listening to loud mp3 players while
weaving across lanes etc. I'm an avid biker, runer and walker and have
seen all kinds. My original response was addressing the statement that
a biker who isn't aware of their surroundings is only a danger to
himself. This is simply not the case.

If you knew the person I was talking about you'd realize how ludicrous
your assertion of his jaywalking is. Also if you've spent any time in
New York, you'd surely know that bike messengers and delivery people
frequently pay no heed to lights, frequently ride against traffic
which leads to blindsiding people who look towards oncoming traffic
before crossing, and also ride on the sidewalk. There seems to be a
rule that you aren't allowed to come to a stop at a red light. Now,
I'm not excusing inconsiderate/dangerous jerks on foot, rollerblades
or anything else, but lets not absolve bikers of all responsibility.

Quoted message said:

I took pride in my job, in calculating a route on-the-fly,
executing the plan and in making my picks and drops on time.
Time the lights, intuit who's going where and why, pick the fast
entrance at the drop, and set up for the next stop.

Of this I have no doubt -- I've spent plenty of time on the manhattan
streats and there are many considerate, careful, and efficient
riders, but unfortunately it only takes one.

Mike

Dave said:

Hey guys,

I was curious as to your thoughts of what mp3 players are rugged

enough

Quoted message said:

for biking off road and such... what does everyone else have and

use,

Quoted message said:

and does it work well for you? And what ones can really take a

beating

Quoted message said:

without breaking?

PS- Im trying to get an iPod just for this reason.
http://www.freeiPods.com/?r=16796740

Thanks,
-Dave

Dave said:

Hey guys,

I was curious as to your thoughts of what mp3 players are rugged

enough

Quoted message said:

for biking off road and such... what does everyone else have and

use,

Quoted message said:

and does it work well for you? And what ones can really take a

beating

Quoted message said:

without breaking?

PS- Im trying to get an iPod just for this reason.
http://www.freeiPods.com/?r=16796740

Thanks,
-Dave

Hi, I have an sony mp3 player and have used it for 2years of biking and
it has held up great. no problem as of yet and i have also dropped it
several times. so go for the sony (i have the blue one and got it at a
sony outlet ) mary

"garmonboezia" <cthvlhv@r'lyeh.arg> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In that enviroment, inattention means injury or death. Among
messenger populations both events occur much less than commonly
supposed. The eight-balls get weeded out and what's left are the
steady riders who understand the rhythm and flow of the street.

This I can not doubt. I am no messenger, but I ride everyday in downtown
Seattle to work, up 3rd and down 2nd. I realize now of several years of
doing this is how much I understand the rhythm of these two streets. If I
ride on 1st or 4th (much less Alaska Way or something) it's like I'm on
Mars, and my ability to intuit what traffic is going to do is greatly
reduced. It makes sense that messengers, from riding downtown streets full
time, have a grasp of the rhythm of all the streets the way I know the few
blocks I ride every day to my office.

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky

Personal page: http://www.geocities.com/cpetersky/
See the books I've set free at:
http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky