Mount DeCanio erupts again

"Alan Atwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Check out the latest article on racelistings.com:

http://www.racelistings.com/rzone/articles/article.asp?recid=348

Wow. S*** is hitting the fan now.....

Alan

Wonderful! But he's right about one thing in particular. Nothing's going to
change. It's all about making money and big money at that. Hence, Omerta.

"Alan Atwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Check out the latest article on racelistings.com:

http://www.racelistings.com/rzone/articles/article.asp?recid=348

Wow. S*** is hitting the fan now.....

Alan

I like the concept of stopping doping but it didn't seem that Matt really
thought through all of the issues very well. The first thing that I have an
issue with is the use of the polygraph. It has been shown many times that a
polygraph is not accurate enough for this type situation. What happens to a
rider that has a false positive? I also have problems with the DS getting
suspended for having a rider test positive. If a rider chooses to dope why
does the DS pay a penalty? I don't know of any sport where a team manager
gets a penalty for violation than an athlete commits. I do like the
aggressive stance against doping in the article.

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Alan Atwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Check out the latest article on racelistings.com:

http://www.racelistings.com/rzone/articles/article.asp?recid=348

Wow. S*** is hitting the fan now.....

Alan

Wonderful! But he's right about one thing in particular. Nothing's going

to

Quoted message said:

change. It's all about making money and big money at that. Hence, Omerta.

Some interesting perspective from Mark Spitz :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympics_2004/swimming/3913609.stm

Quoted message said:

From: "B. Lafferty" [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Some interesting perspective from Mark Spitz :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympics_2004/swimming/3913609.stm

I just got this in an update today.
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996265
If verified this is going to make catching them even tougher.
Bill C

"TritonRider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From: "B. Lafferty" [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Some interesting perspective from Mark Spitz :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympics_2004/swimming/3913609.stm

I just got this in an update today.
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996265
If verified this is going to make catching them even tougher.
Bill C

Yup! So test them every day for three months prior to the Tour. For
classics riders, three months prior to April.

Quoted message said:

From: "B. Lafferty"

Quoted message said:

Some interesting perspective from Mark Spitz :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympics_2004/swimming/3913609.stm

Yeah, he said if you take the money out, there will be no problems. He doesn't
know about high school athletes taking performance enhancing substances? Bull.

Well, he's not the only champion of yesteryear (remember his televised comeback
failure?) who is comparing oblivion with the modern sportsman's paycheck, it
would seem. That must really, really hurt, having to _work_ for a living, like
the little people, when you can't swim fast enough anymore. "Real Estate
Agent"-- not quite the thrills and adulation of old. (See, it's *not* the
money.)

I loved "We had steroids but they were only used in other sports". ("We"?
Wouldn't "they" have been a little more consistent with denial of use?) He won
_eleven_ medals? "He must have been on something"! (did I get that right,
Brian?)

"I might have been tempted". Snort, guffaw. --TP

"Tom Paterson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From: "B. Lafferty"

Quoted message said:

Some interesting perspective from Mark Spitz :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympics_2004/swimming/3913609.stm

Yeah, he said if you take the money out, there will be no problems. He

doesn't

Quoted message said:

know about high school athletes taking performance enhancing substances?

Bull.

Two of the reasons high school football players use steroids is to get
football scholorships to college and in the hope (absurd for most) of making
it to the pro level. Both are money drivers. Money is a pervasive driver
for most organized sports with doping problems. Would there be fewer dopers
if there was no money. Fewer perhaps, but human nature being what it is,
some will still dope. We see it at the local races all the time. Come big
race day, some riders suddenly have rocket power.

Quoted message said:

Well, he's not the only champion of yesteryear (remember his televised

comeback

Quoted message said:

failure?) who is comparing oblivion with the modern sportsman's paycheck,

it

Quoted message said:

would seem. That must really, really hurt, having to _work_ for a living,

like

Quoted message said:

the little people, when you can't swim fast enough anymore. "Real Estate
Agent"-- not quite the thrills and adulation of old. (See, it's *not* the
money.)

Sounds like you have the inside track on mark Spitz. Have you ever met him,
Tom?

Quoted message said:

I loved "We had steroids but they were only used in other sports". ("We"?
Wouldn't "they" have been a little more consistent with denial of use?) He

won

Quoted message said:

_eleven_ medals? "He must have been on something"! (did I get that right,
Brian?)

He never tested positive, did he. IIRC, back then it was the Chinese swim
team that was heavy into steroids, and obviously so. I guess the US gold
medal hockey team must have been pumped up on roids, too. Right, Tom?

Quoted message said:

"I might have been tempted". Snort, guffaw. --TP

But your man Lance is clean. Snort, guffaw.

"Alan Atwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Check out the latest article on racelistings.com:

http://www.racelistings.com/rzone/articles/article.asp?recid=348

"when you use EPO and live at altitude it pushes the synthetic proteins out
of your system that cause you to test positive. You will never fail a test
for EPO if you live at altitude or sleep in an altitude tent."

DeCanio is hallucinating: living/sleeping at altitude/simulated altitude is
a very mild stimulus to EPO secretion, at least compared to the levels
achieved when you inject the drug. The ratio of synthetic vs. natural EPO in
blood or urine would therefore be little affected by the approach he
proposes.

Andy Coggan

B. Lafferty said:

Two of the reasons high school football players use steroids is to get
football scholorships to college and in the hope (absurd for most) of making
it to the pro level. Both are money drivers. Money is a pervasive driver
for most organized sports with doping problems. Would there be fewer dopers
if there was no money. Fewer perhaps, but human nature being what it is,
some will still dope. We see it at the local races all the time. Come big
race day, some riders suddenly have rocket power.

The only way to take the money out of cycling is to take the interest from cycling.
Is that what you want?

Even if you did, do you think master's athletes dope? Heck, even gym rats
take steroids, and that's not even formally competitive. No, it would change
nothing.

Dan

Quoted message said:

From: Dan Connelly d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g

Quoted message said:

Heck, even gym rats
take steroids, and that's not even formally competitive. No, it would change
nothing.

Dan

And a whole lot of other stuff. You are a master of understatement.
Bill C

"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty said:

Two of the reasons high school football players use steroids is to get
football scholorships to college and in the hope (absurd for most) of

making

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it to the pro level. Both are money drivers. Money is a pervasive

driver

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for most organized sports with doping problems. Would there be fewer

dopers

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

if there was no money. Fewer perhaps, but human nature being what it

is,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

some will still dope. We see it at the local races all the time. Come

big

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

race day, some riders suddenly have rocket power.

The only way to take the money out of cycling is to take the interest from

cycling.

Quoted message said:

Is that what you want?

I haven't proposed anything. The comment was Tom's relating to high school
athletics. I think I made it clear there would still be dopers, though
perhaps not as many. We'll need to do a survey. ;-)

Quoted message said:

Even if you did, do you think master's athletes dope?

I know that they do. I've done masters races with a 50+ year old with fresh
acne on his back.

Heck, even gym rats

Quoted message said:

take steroids, and that's not even formally competitive. No, it would

change

Quoted message said:

nothing.

Quoted message said:

Dan

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Two of the reasons high school football players use steroids is to get
football scholorships to college and in the hope (absurd for most) of

making

Quoted message said:

it to the pro level. Both are money drivers.

<snip>

Those may be two of the reasons but, IMHO, they are very minor. I think it's
all about competition, on the field and to get girls.

Quoted message said:

From: "B. Lafferty"

Quoted message said:

Two of the reasons high school football players use steroids is to get
football scholorships to college and in the hope (absurd for most) of making
it to the pro level. (snip)

Quoted message said:

Would there be fewer dopers
if there was no money. Fewer perhaps, but human nature being what it is,
some will still dope. We see it at the local races all the time. Come big
race day, some riders suddenly have >rocket power.

So you agree that at least some of the Spitz article you posted the link for is
bull: people take steroids when there is little/no money at stake ("amateur"
bike racing) and/or when the rewards are iffy, as for scholarships and pro
careers. "Taking the money out" is a dumb thing to say. Spitz isn't dumb.
Disingenuous, maybe. Not dumb.

Quoted message said:

Sounds like you have the inside track on mark Spitz. Have you ever met him,
Tom?

What's the matter, Brian? I'm obviously playing off you here. Sarcasm lost?
Turnabout a little hard to take?

Met him? No. Parallel to your (longstanding) treatment of Lance Armstrong
nearly completed. Bear with me a moment:

Mark Spitz a *hero* of yours or something? Are you indeed a Spitz tifiosi? Do
you believe everything he says, even when he won all those medals in a
scurrilously suspicious display of superiority? Why didn't he swim in more
events? What about that non-competitive, post-testing comback attempt in 91-92?
And all those high-paying commercials that kept him out of the pool!!! (etc.
etc.)

Quoted message said:

He never tested positive, did he.

Nor did anyone until '76 if my sources are correct. Nice try (not): one Olympic
alcohol positive in 68, seven unspecified positives in 72.

<S> (for Sarcasm, Brian, I'll start doing that; anything to help): Is that
improved testing for '76 *really* why Spitz quit, not the "lost his amateur
status" cover story? I find myself unsatisfied with the answers given <S>. It
would seem that Mr. Spitz has a deeper, more detailed story to tell <S>.
Perhaps we can find people who swam with him or worked with organizations he
was affiliated with <S>, perhaps some people whose employment or team slots
were terminated, so we can get a more accurate <S> picture of what really
happened all those years ago.

I think I'm grasping the basics pretty well, here!

Quoted message said:

I guess the US gold
medal hockey team must have been >pumped up on roids, too. Right, Tom?

Making assumptions based on performance and association is your prime area,
Brian. Remember? "Lance wins races and consults with Ferrari, so Lance is a
doper?"

(I posted):

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"I might have been tempted". Snort, guffaw.

(reply):

Quoted message said:

But your man Lance is clean. Snort, >guffaw.

I'm snorting at the self-serving, chicken-[censored] "might". I know that didn't
really go over your head. Lance? What about Lance, Brian? Any news? They didn't
find his name in the Balco stuff, no post-Tour "revelations" from Walsh, no
nothing (including, of course: A&B sample positive tests, possession, uncoerced
confession).

(snip from previous):

Quoted message said:

IIRC, back then it was the Chinese swim
team that was heavy into steroids, and >obviously so.

If this is true it only pokes a nice big hole in Spitz's statement that
"steroids were only used in other sports" (along with the fact that steroids
were in common use from approx. 1954 in the USA:
<http://www.methodistsports.com/Images/Item/bin11705.pdf>

That would be real close to 20 years that steroids were known about and used
right here in the USA, not just behind the Iron Curtain. Spitz: "We had
steroids...". His own recent words.

Damn, Brian, you dragged poor old Mark Spitz in here and he got all dirty,
whether he ever doped or not. Tsk tsk. I hope you can still look at that fading
picture on your bedroom wall with the same rosy adulation <S><g>. --TP

"Mark Fennell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:6YSSc.30767$xk.21259@fed1read01...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Two of the reasons high school football players use steroids is to get
football scholorships to college and in the hope (absurd for most) of

making

Quoted message said:

it to the pro level. Both are money drivers.

<snip>

Those may be two of the reasons but, IMHO, they are very minor. I think

it's

Quoted message said:

all about competition, on the field and to get girls.

I can tell you that I've had conversations with students who were playing
football and using steroids, creatine and probably more. They were very
competitive and all looking for scholarships to college. The social aspect
was important too, but the steroids went along with a tremendous amount of
hard work nearly year round to try to score that college ticket.

And then there was the senior woman, who was using steroids to keep her body
fat low so as to star in soccer and track. She did quite well and got what
she wanted.

Quoted message said:

From: "B. Lafferty" [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

I can tell you that I've had conversations with students who were playing
football and using steroids, creatine and probably more. They were very
competitive and all looking for scholarships to college. The social aspect
was important too, but the steroids went along with a tremendous amount of
hard work nearly year round to try to score that college ticket.

And then there was the senior woman, who was using steroids to keep her body
fat low so as to star in soccer and track. She did quite well and got what
she wanted.

Were back to the link I posted a while ago about kids down to age 10, GET
THAT? 10.
Doing performance enhancing drugs. I know that coach, mom and dad are looking
at the money but this [censored] has just gotten sick.
Bill C

Quoted message said:

"Tom Paterson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From: "B. Lafferty"

Quoted message said:

Two of the reasons high school football players use steroids is to get
football scholorships to college and in the hope (absurd for most) of

making

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it to the pro level. (snip)

Quoted message said:

Would there be fewer dopers
if there was no money. Fewer perhaps, but human nature being what it is,
some will still dope. We see it at the local races all the time. Come

big

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

race day, some riders suddenly have >rocket power.

So you agree that at least some of the Spitz article you posted the link

for is

Quoted message said:

bull: people take steroids when there is little/no money at stake

("amateur"

Quoted message said:

bike racing) and/or when the rewards are iffy, as for scholarships and pro
careers. "Taking the money out" is a dumb thing to say. Spitz isn't dumb.
Disingenuous, maybe. Not dumb.

Quoted message said:

Sounds like you have the inside track on mark Spitz. Have you ever met

him,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tom?

What's the matter, Brian? I'm obviously playing off you here. Sarcasm

lost?

Quoted message said:

Turnabout a little hard to take?

Oh. You're playing off me? Now I'm confused.

Quoted message said:

Met him? No. Parallel to your (longstanding) treatment of Lance Armstrong
nearly completed. Bear with me a moment:

Quoted message said:

Mark Spitz a *hero* of yours or something? Are you indeed a Spitz tifiosi?

Do

Quoted message said:

you believe everything he says, even when he won all those medals in a
scurrilously suspicious display of superiority? Why didn't he swim in more
events? What about that non-competitive, post-testing comback attempt in

91-92?

Quoted message said:

And all those high-paying commercials that kept him out of the pool!!!

(etc.

Quoted message said:

etc.)

What's your point? You don't like Mark Spitz? I don't have any opinion
about him either way.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

He never tested positive, did he.

Nor did anyone until '76 if my sources are correct. Nice try (not): one

Olympic

Quoted message said:

alcohol positive in 68, seven unspecified positives in 72.

Does that mean he and everyone else was clean?

Quoted message said:

<S> (for Sarcasm, Brian, I'll start doing that; anything to help): Is

that

Quoted message said:

improved testing for '76 *really* why Spitz quit, not the "lost his

amateur

Quoted message said:

status" cover story? I find myself unsatisfied with the answers given <S>.

It

Quoted message said:

would seem that Mr. Spitz has a deeper, more detailed story to tell <S>.
Perhaps we can find people who swam with him or worked with organizations

he

Quoted message said:

was affiliated with <S>, perhaps some people whose employment or team

slots

Quoted message said:

were terminated, so we can get a more accurate <S> picture of what really
happened all those years ago.

Sounds like you're really a very frustrated person. I suggest that if you
have that much bile for Mr. Spitz, start researching and interviewing.

Quoted message said:

I think I'm grasping the basics pretty well, here!

Quoted message said:

I guess the US gold
medal hockey team must have been >pumped up on roids, too. Right, Tom?

Making assumptions based on performance and association is your prime

area,

Quoted message said:

Brian. Remember? "Lance wins races and consults with Ferrari, so Lance is

a

Quoted message said:

doper?"

And if Spitz or any other swimmer today had used a Ferrari type of
trainer/coach, I'd be asking the same questions and seeing the same warning
flags I and others see with Armstrong. The issue is, as Spitz, Lemond and
numerous others have pointed out, that not testing positive proves nothing.

Quoted message said:

(I posted):

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"I might have been tempted". Snort, guffaw.

(reply):

Quoted message said:

But your man Lance is clean. Snort, >guffaw.

I'm snorting at the self-serving, chicken-[censored] "might". I know that didn't
really go over your head. Lance? What about Lance, Brian? Any news? They

didn't

Quoted message said:

find his name in the Balco stuff, no post-Tour "revelations" from Walsh,

no

Quoted message said:

nothing (including, of course: A&B sample positive tests, possession,

uncoerced

Quoted message said:

confession).

Have you read the Walsh & and Ballester book yet? I have. Talk to me about
Walsh and Lance after you've read it. Until then you're just blowing smoke
out of your bung hole. If you want to borrow the book let me know.

Quoted message said:

(snip from previous):

Quoted message said:

IIRC, back then it was the Chinese swim
team that was heavy into steroids, and >obviously so.

If this is true it only pokes a nice big hole in Spitz's statement that
"steroids were only used in other sports" (along with the fact that

steroids

Quoted message said:

were in common use from approx. 1954 in the USA:
<http://www.methodistsports.com/Images/Item/bin11705.pdf>

That would be real close to 20 years that steroids were known about and

used

Quoted message said:

right here in the USA, not just behind the Iron Curtain. Spitz: "We had
steroids...". His own recent words.

Steroids were around. Did Spitz use them? I certainly don't know. He never
tested positive and he says he didn't use them. Maybe he just has a great
VO2 Max--higher than Lance's 82 (not the 83.5 that his web site suddenly
changed to).

Quoted message said:

Damn, Brian, you dragged poor old Mark Spitz in here and he got all dirty,
whether he ever doped or not. Tsk tsk. I hope you can still look at that

fading

Quoted message said:

picture on your bedroom wall with the same rosy adulation <S><g>. --TP

Thanks Tom. You made my day. Have a great evening.

"TritonRider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From: "B. Lafferty" [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

I can tell you that I've had conversations with students who were playing
football and using steroids, creatine and probably more. They were very
competitive and all looking for scholarships to college. The social

aspect

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was important too, but the steroids went along with a tremendous amount

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hard work nearly year round to try to score that college ticket.

And then there was the senior woman, who was using steroids to keep her

body

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

fat low so as to star in soccer and track. She did quite well and got

what

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

she wanted.

Were back to the link I posted a while ago about kids down to age 10, GET
THAT? 10.
Doing performance enhancing drugs. I know that coach, mom and dad are

looking

Quoted message said:

at the money but this [censored] has just gotten sick.
Bill C

I agree that it's completely sick. I think a lot of the parents just don't
want to know if the kid is using. And some do see the kid as a financial
way up and out.

[email hidden] (Alan Atwood) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Check out the latest article on racelistings.com:

http://www.racelistings.com/rzone/articles/article.asp?recid=348

Wow. S*** is hitting the fan now.....

Alan

The link to stolenunderground.com speculates on three more US EPO
positives on the Healthnet team.

Quoted message said:

From: "B. Lafferty"

Quoted message said:

Oh. You're playing off me? Now I'm >confused.

Hardly. You could have said you were flattered.

Quoted message said:

What's your point? You don't like Mark Spitz? I don't have any opinion
about him either way.

Just imitating your style. Don't play dumb.

Quoted message said:

Sounds like you're really a very frustrated person.

Mirroring Walsh who you can bet is really, really frustrated. Hope he's okay.

Quoted message said:

I suggest that if you
have that much bile for Mr. Spitz, start >researching and interviewing.

Obviously imitating. Research sufficient for that completed.

Quoted message said:

And if Spitz or any other swimmer today had used a Ferrari type of
trainer/coach, I'd be asking the same questions and seeing the same warning
flags I and others see with Armstrong.

"Questions" you lifted from Walsh. "Accusations" is the word. "We don't prove
anything here". That's right, you haven't.

Quoted message said:

The issue is, as Spitz, Lemond and
numerous others have pointed out, that >not testing positive proves nothing.

It proves you can pass tests over and over. So don't say "nothing", because
some have been caught by these same tests. And some have been caught in
possession. And some have admitted using illicit substances to improve
performance.

Quoted message said:

Have you read the Walsh & and Ballester >book yet?

Only if you promise you haven't left anything out when posting here.

Quoted message said:

If you want to borrow the book let me >know.

I'm sure I can do that locally and save postage. Thanks for the trust and the
offer, though.

Quoted message said:

Steroids were around. Did Spitz use >them? I certainly don't know.

How about Lance? Do you know if he did?

Quoted message said:

Thanks Tom. You made my day.

Thought you'd like the one about the picture on your bedroom wall. I felt
inspired there-- well, slightly anyhow.

Quoted message said:

Have a great evening.

You too. Demain. --TP