Morning run intensity

Lyle McDonald said:

Quick question that I can't seem to find answered: many
runners will do a morning run of 30-40 minutes. Then their
main run later in the day (kenyans do it 4 hours later).

My question is what intensity the morning run is typically
done at?

You're probably going to get a number of different
responses. Here's mine.

I do it at usual intensity for an aerobic run. I do nearly
all of my training runs at about the same pace Jack Daniels
recommends for 'E' pace (he uses 0.70 * vdot to calculate
this). I often run the first mile of my morning runs
somewhat slower (as much as a minute per mile slower).

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

I do nearly all of my training runs at about the same pace
Jack Daniels recommends

Speaking of Jack Daniels, I've been having that new drink
recommended by a gynocologist prior to my runs. Its a
mixture of Pabst Blue Ribbon beer and Smirnoff vodka, he
calls it a Pabst Smir.

If you want to know what the Kenyans do, check out "Train
Hard, Win Easy". It is probably the most detailed single
book on Kenyan training.

IIRC, the AM run is aerobic. Kinda something to get the
blood flowing.

"Lyle McDonald" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quick question that I can't seem to find answered: many
runners will do a morning run of 30-40 minutes. Then their
main run later in the day (kenyans do it 4 hours later).

My question is what intensity the morning run is typically
done at?

thanks, Lyle

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Lyle McDonald said:

Quick question that I can't seem to find answered: many
runners will do a morning run of 30-40 minutes. Then their
main run later in the day (kenyans do it 4 hours later).

My question is what intensity the morning run is typically
done at?

You're probably going to get a number of different
responses. Here's mine.

I do it at usual intensity for an aerobic run. I do nearly
all of my training runs at about the same pace Jack
Daniels recommends for 'E' pace (he uses 0.70 * vdot to
calculate this). I often run the first mile of my morning
runs somewhat slower (as much as a minute per mile
slower).

Looking in Daniels Runnig Formula, he puts E run intensity
at about 75% max heart rate. That sound about right (figure
130-150 BPM depending on age/max)?

Thanks, Lyle

Sam said:

If you want to know what the Kenyans do, check out "Train
Hard, Win Easy". It is probably the most detailed single
book on Kenyan training.

IIRC, the AM run is aerobic. Kinda something to get the
blood flowing.

I have the Tanser book but it is incredibly vague about such
things as intensity. I also wish it had talked about the
Kenyan base period more, instead of just referring to the
'hard buildup period' and then talking mainly about the
crazy intensive stuff they do.

also, to say the morning run is aerobic leaves a lot of room
for interpretation. Could range from easy recovery 120-130
HR to just below LT (variable) and still technically be
aerobic. I was just looking for a general concensus idea on
the intensity of morning runs (understanding that many
runners have added it to their programs).

My guess was in the 130-140 range or so but my experience is
with sports (cycling/in line skating) that haven't ever
utilized that type of approach (short morning workout in
addition to a main workout).

Thanks, Lyle

Lyle McDonald said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Lyle McDonald said:

Quick question that I can't seem to find answered: many
runners will do a morning run of 30-40 minutes. Then
their main run later in the day (kenyans do it 4 hours
later).

My question is what intensity the morning run is
typically done at?

You're probably going to get a number of different
responses. Here's mine.

I do it at usual intensity for an aerobic run. I do
nearly all of my training runs at about the same pace
Jack Daniels recommends for 'E' pace (he uses 0.70 * vdot
to calculate this). I often run the first mile of my
morning runs somewhat slower (as much as a minute per
mile slower).

Looking in Daniels Runnig Formula, he puts E run intensity
at about 75% max heart rate. That sound about right
(figure 130-150 BPM depending on age/max)?

Sounds about right. In practice, it may go a little higher
under certain conditions such as hot weather, treadmill with
no fans, hills, etc. I'd recommend staying under 80% the
whole time, and aiming for about 75% most of the way. After
a little while, most people will converge on the right pace
instinctively.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

I thought the Tanser book went into more detail. I have
read some stuff on the intensity and it tends to be pretty
easy for them. however, they also run more miles around and
above LT than most Westerners (depending on how one defines
LT!). I wish I had the reference, but there have been some
peer reviewed papers on intensity that might give more
specific insight.

Generally I have found that a lot of people have a hard
time going hard in the AM unless it is a race in which they
have gotten up early and warmed up sufficiently and taken
in some food or nutrition. As I have gotten older (and
thousands of miles are in my legs) I am finding that I just
cannot run hard in the AM. I now do my hard efforts at noon
or in the afternoon. There might be some circadian/hormonal
issues at play (since hormones are linked with circadia) as
well. On a simpler note, it is just harder to getting
warmed up and rolling!

"Lyle McDonald" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sam said:

If you want to know what the Kenyans do, check out
"Train Hard, Win

Easy".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It is probably the most detailed single book on Kenyan
training.

IIRC, the AM run is aerobic. Kinda something to get the
blood flowing.

I have the Tanser book but it is incredibly vague about
such things as intensity. I also wish it had talked about
the Kenyan base period more, instead of just referring to
the 'hard buildup period' and then talking mainly about
the crazy intensive stuff they do.

also, to say the morning run is aerobic leaves a lot of
room for interpretation. Could range from easy recovery
120-130 HR to just below LT (variable) and still
technically be aerobic. I was just looking for a general
concensus idea on the intensity of morning runs
(understanding that many runners have added it to their
programs).

My guess was in the 130-140 range or so but my experience
is with sports (cycling/in line skating) that haven't ever
utilized that type of approach (short morning workout in
addition to a main workout).

Thanks, Lyle

Sam wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

I thought the Tanser book went into more detail. I have
read some stuff on the intensity and it tends to be pretty
easy for them. however, they also run more miles around and
above LT than most Westerners (depending on how one defines
LT!). I wish I had the reference, but there have been some

peer

Quoted message said:

reviewed papers on intensity that might give more
specific insight.

Isn't LT (anaerobic threshold) defined as a blood lactate
concentration of 4 millimoles per liter of blood? (from
Janssen) "An exertion beyond the level of the anaerobic
threshold is accompanied by a strong increase in lactate
content". Basically, its the effort level you can't go much
above without dying fast. Regarding the kenyans - I would
love to read about their self-torture. How is the Tanser
book to read?

- Tony

Sam said:

I thought the Tanser book went into more detail. I have
read some stuff on the intensity and it tends to be pretty
easy for them. however, they also run more miles around
and above LT than most Westerners (depending on how one
defines LT!). I wish I had the reference, but there have
been some peer reviewed papers on intensity that might
give more specific insight.

Generally I have found that a lot of people have a hard
time going hard in the AM unless it is a race in which
they have gotten up early and warmed up sufficiently and
taken in some food or nutrition. As I have gotten older
(and thousands of miles are in my legs) I am finding that
I just cannot run hard in the AM. I now do my hard efforts
at noon or in the afternoon. There might be some
circadian/hormonal issues at play (since hormones are
linked with circadia) as well. On a simpler note, it is
just harder to getting warmed up and rolling!

So, heart rate wise, where would you guess/say you end up on
the morning run.

Thanks, Lyle

Tony said:

Sam wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

I thought the Tanser book went into more detail. I have
read some stuff on the intensity and it tends to be pretty
easy for them. however, they also run more miles around
and above LT than most Westerners (depending on how one
defines LT!). I wish I had the reference, but there have
been some

peer

Quoted message said:

reviewed papers on intensity that might give more specific
insight.

Isn't LT (anaerobic threshold) defined as a blood lactate
concentration of 4 millimoles per liter of blood? (from
Janssen) "An exertion beyond the level of the anaerobic
threshold is accompanied by a strong increase in lactate
content". Basically, its the effort level you can't go
much above without dying fast.

4 mmol/l is one definition of LT, not everybody accepts it.
More accurate to say that LT is the intensity above which
lactate accumulates (i.e. is no longer at a steady state
level). Which takes into account the fact that some folks
will show a lactic acid level lower or higher than 4 but
still be at steady state.

Quoted message said:

Regarding the kenyans - I would love to read about their
self-torture. How is the Tanser book to read?

It's interesting but more a collection of different ideas
and not at all living up to the title (i.e. it won't give
you any idea how to really apply the ideas to your own
training and "Train hard, win easy"😉.

A cohesive Kenyan training program is never described, but
you get a lot of individual training plans (either
individual runners or what they do at week longcamps). 2-3
runs/day are the norm, one interesting pattern is a pre-
breakfast easy/short AM run at 6am followed by a main run at
10 am. This contrasts to the normal morning/evening pattern
that most athletes follow and I think the Kenyan pattern has
some interesting ramifications from a gene
expression/adaptation point of view. A third run may occur
later in the day and at least one Kenyan is described as
running 4X/day.

As I mentioned, the 'hard buildup' period is only mentioned
briefly with no indication of what is typically done during
that period. No indication of intensities beyond hard and
easy is given (this may have more to do with the Kenyans
not paying much attention to it). Even easy runs are
described as starting at an ambling pace and generally
finishing at/near race pace (I believe Prefontaine
regularly ran like that).

Been doing much reading on this topic recently and one point
that almost everyone makes is that the Kenyans literally
have years of base training behind them; that on top of
everything else is part of what allows them to survive such
intensive training which is most of what people hear about
(i.e. we're mainly reading about the couple of months of
insanely intensive stuff they do, not the base period that
preceeded it). I think (obviously), what the Kenyans are
doing is suggestive for modern training theory; I don't
think applying it across the board is going to be a good
idea for most people. Between years of hardening their
bodies, whatever genetic effects have occurred during their
time living in Kenya, running on soft ground, the Kenyans
have a lot of factors going into their ability to handle
intensive training on a daily basis.

To start, I think you'll get more use out of what's on this
site

mariusbakken.commariusbakken.comOpen ↗

Click on the training link. Peak Performance Online has a
few articles about the Kenyans as well.

Lyle

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sam wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

I thought the Tanser book went into more detail. I have
read some stuff

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the intensity and it tends to be pretty easy for them.
however, they

also

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

run more miles around and above LT than most Westerners
(depending on how one defines LT!). I wish I had the
reference, but there have been some

peer

Quoted message said:

reviewed papers on intensity that might give more
specific insight.

Isn't LT (anaerobic threshold) defined as a blood lactate
concentration of

4

Quoted message said:

millimoles per liter of blood? (from Janssen) "An exertion
beyond the level of the anaerobic threshold is accompanied
by a strong increase in lactate content". Basically, its
the effort level you can't go much

above

Quoted message said:

without dying fast. Regarding the kenyans - I would love
to read about their self-torture. How is the Tanser book
to read?

- Tony

Technically 4mmol/L is OBLA or Onset of Blood Lactate
Accumulation (which is not all that accurate either).

LT is an exponential rise in blood lactate levels. The exact
"point" is subject to choices and varies depending on the
person doing the selecting. To a scientist, LT is a concept
and not really a point. Coaches want to know an "exact"
point. Regardless of how LT is determined, it is a strong
correlate of endurance performance. Ed Coyle did an
excellent paper on this with cyclists in ~1991.

Anaerobic threshold to me is an inappropriate term as well
as it connotes that at some point aerobic metabolism
ceases and that just is not true. It is also not true that
below that level that anaerobic metabolism is not
occurring either.

The Tanser book is a good read.

Lyle McDonald said:

As I mentioned, the 'hard buildup' period is only
mentioned briefly with no indication of what is
typically done during that period. No indication of
intensities beyond hard and easy is given (this may have
more to do with the Kenyans not paying much attention to
it). Even easy

This is probably right. Hard probably means approaching LT,
easy would mean that they at least start at an aerobic pace
though group dynamics may push the pace up a little.

Quoted message said:

runs are described as starting at an ambling pace and
generally finishing at/near race pace (I believe
Prefontaine regularly ran like that).

May have something to do with the way group runs tend to
work -- the pace always ends up fast.

Quoted message said:

Been doing much reading on this topic recently and one
point that almost everyone makes is that the Kenyans
literally have years of base training behind them;

And for the most part, they probably do most of their base
milage alone, which probably makes for easier runs. I think
most athletes will converge on something close to Daniels'
'E' pace if they are required to run a lot of milage on
their own (most people I know do their aerobic runs at about
this pace, though few have read Daniels)

Quoted message said:

that on top of everything else is part of what allows them
to survive such intensive training which is most of what
people hear about (i.e. we're mainly reading about the
couple of months of insanely intensive stuff they do, not
the base period that preceeded it). I

Yep. And given the environment (training camp), nearly every
run is a probably group run -- so observations about group
runs apply.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Lyle McDonald wrote in message
<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Tony said:

Sam wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

I thought the Tanser book went into more detail. I have
read some stuff

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the intensity and it tends to be pretty easy for them.
however, they

also

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

run more miles around and above LT than most Westerners
(depending on how one defines LT!). I wish I had the
reference, but there have been some

peer

Quoted message said:

reviewed papers on intensity that might give more
specific insight.

Isn't LT (anaerobic threshold) defined as a blood lactate
concentration

of 4

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

millimoles per liter of blood? (from Janssen) "An
exertion beyond the level of the anaerobic threshold is
accompanied by a strong increase in lactate content".
Basically, its the effort level you can't go much

above

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

without dying fast.

4 mmol/l is one definition of LT, not everybody accepts it.
More accurate to say that LT is the intensity above which
lactate accumulates (i.e. is no longer at a steady state
level). Which takes into account the fact that some folks
will show a lactic acid level lower or higher than 4 but
still be at steady state.

Quoted message said:

Regarding the kenyans - I would love to read about their
self-torture. How is the Tanser book to read?

It's interesting but more a collection of different ideas
and not at all living up to the title (i.e. it won't give
you any idea how to really apply the ideas to your own
training and "Train hard, win easy"😉.

A cohesive Kenyan training program is never described, but
you get a lot of individual training plans (either
individual runners or what they do at week longcamps). 2-3
runs/day are the norm, one interesting pattern is a pre-
breakfast easy/short AM run at 6am followed by a main run
at 10 am. This contrasts to the normal morning/evening
pattern that most athletes follow and I think the Kenyan
pattern has some interesting ramifications from a gene
expression/adaptation point of view. A third run may occur
later in the day and at least one Kenyan is described as
running 4X/day.

As I mentioned, the 'hard buildup' period is only mentioned
briefly with no indication of what is typically done during
that period. No indication of intensities beyond hard and
easy is given (this may have more to do with the Kenyans
not paying much attention to it). Even easy runs are
described as starting at an ambling pace and generally
finishing at/near race pace (I believe Prefontaine
regularly ran like

that).

Quoted message said:

Been doing much reading on this topic recently and one
point that almost everyone makes is that the Kenyans
literally have years of base training behind them; that on
top of everything else is part of what allows them to
survive such intensive training which is most of what
people hear about (i.e. we're mainly reading about the
couple of months of insanely intensive stuff they do, not
the base period that preceeded it). I think (obviously),
what the Kenyans are doing is suggestive for modern
training theory; I don't think applying it across the board
is going to be a good idea for most people. Between years
of hardening their bodies, whatever genetic effects have
occurred during their time living in Kenya, running on soft
ground, the Kenyans have a lot of factors going into their
ability to handle intensive training on a daily basis.

To start, I think you'll get more use out of what's on
this site

mariusbakken.commariusbakken.comOpen ↗

Fascinating stuff thanks for the link. Basically it seems
all these great runners do a very high percentage of their
training just below AT. It makes sense when you think about
it. The more the training that is done at that level, the
better the body will get at fueling that pace and clearing
lactic acid, and the less damage running at that effort
level will produce in the future. This certainly flouts the
conventional wisdom. A common thread in those articles
seems to be that the conventional modern system of more
"base" training and less speedwork leads to the speedwork
being overdone, burning out the athlete. This might be
because the goal should be to teach the body to approach AT
without going over it, and then once the body has adapted
to this, speedwork above AT will be more effective on that
type of base.

I wouldn't call myself a gifted or serious runner, but I
have my goal: right now a 50k trail race. Reading this
type of thing (and listening to Donovan's advice, ahem)
makes me want to speed up my mid week runs and do long
intervals and more of them, but slower than AT, as opposed
to 10k pace or better. The long run will be slow, but part
of it will be paced.

- Tony

Quoted message said:

Click on the training link. Peak Performance Online has a
few articles about the Kenyans as well.

Lyle

Sam wrote in message
<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sam wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

I thought the Tanser book went into more detail. I have
read some stuff

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the intensity and it tends to be pretty easy for them.
however, they

also

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

run more miles around and above LT than most Westerners
(depending on

how

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

one defines LT!). I wish I had the reference, but there
have been some

peer

Quoted message said:

reviewed papers on intensity that might give more
specific insight.

Isn't LT (anaerobic threshold) defined as a blood lactate
concentration

of

Quoted message said:

4

Quoted message said:

millimoles per liter of blood? (from Janssen) "An
exertion beyond the level of the anaerobic threshold is
accompanied by a strong increase in lactate content".
Basically, its the effort level you can't go much

above

Quoted message said:

without dying fast. Regarding the kenyans - I would love
to read about their self-torture. How is the Tanser book
to read?

- Tony

Technically 4mmol/L is OBLA or Onset of Blood Lactate
Accumulation (which

is

Quoted message said:

not all that accurate either).

LT is an exponential rise in blood lactate levels. The
exact "point" is subject to choices and varies depending on
the person doing the selecting. To a scientist, LT is a
concept and not really a point. Coaches want to know an
"exact" point. Regardless of how LT is determined, it is a
strong correlate of endurance performance. Ed Coyle did an
excellent paper on

this

Quoted message said:

with cyclists in ~1991.

Anaerobic threshold to me is an inappropriate term as well
as it connotes that at some point aerobic metabolism
ceases and that just is not true. It is also not true that
below that level that anaerobic metabolism is not
occurring either.

Agreed, its not a "threshold" or a point, but is the region
of performance where the accumulation of lactate starts to
increase more sharply, as can be seen on a lactate content
vs. speed chart. Its like the effect of wind resistance when
riding a bike. As the speed increases the wind resistance
increases exponentially, though there is no single point
when this occurs. Also of course lactate isn't the only
limiting factor. Among other things there is the ability to
continue to fuel the muscles efficiently.

Quoted message said:

The Tanser book is a good read.

Donovan Rebbechi said:

On 2004-06-28, Lyle McDonald
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

runs are described as starting at an ambling pace and
generally finishing at/near race pace (I believe
Prefontaine regularly ran like that).

May have something to do with the way group runs tend to
work -- the pace always ends up fast.

Yup, was always a problem when I would cycle with a
partner/group. invaribly what was supposed to be an easy
spin turned into a hammer session by the end.
Testosterone is evil.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Been doing much reading on this topic recently and one
point that almost everyone makes is that the Kenyans
literally have years of base training behind them;

And for the most part, they probably do most of their base
milage alone,

well, the point is that their base is probably being
developed in somewhat of an unstructured style during their
childhood/development (Lydiard claims the Kenyans run to and
from school, Tanser says that such beliefs are incorrect).

Quoted message said:

which probably makes for easier runs. I think most
athletes will converge on something close to Daniels' 'E'
pace if they are required to run a lot of milage on their
own (most people I know do their aerobic runs at about
this pace, though few have read Daniels)

Maybe running is different from cycling (well, duh), but it
seems that most athletes tend to work far too hard during
what is supposed to be easy training. Even maintaining 75-
80% max HR (say 150-160), much less 75% or below (depending
on who you believe regarding what intensity it's best to do
the work at) can be difficult.

Lyle

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't call myself a gifted or serious runner, but I
have my

goal:

Quoted message said:

right now a 50k trail race. Reading this type of thing
(and listening

to

Quoted message said:

Donovan's advice, ahem) makes me want to speed up my mid
week runs

Maybe one day but it goes back to how fast you recover.
Nothing youdo during the week should mess with the quality
of your long run.

Quoted message said:

and do long intervals and more of them, but slower than
AT, as opposed to 10k

pace

Quoted message said:

or better.

Unless you plan to compete in the top 10 which suggests big
miles, speed at better than 10k pace is of little value
compared to longer interval work be it tempo ot LT.

Quoted message said:

The long run will be slow, but part of it will be paced.

And I'll ring the conservative bell. I don't think you have
enough experience to date to mess around with pace during
you long runs. If you want to play with a variable add
distance not speed. It's fun to read about the Kenyans et al
but don't let these "speedy" thoughts cloud your judgment.
Sure the race is only 50k and you have gone longer but use
this race for a strong finish. Unlike a 50 death in a 50k is
simply walking the last N miles as people with wrap around
walkers pass by.

I can't find a map to suggest terrain but from last years
race and splits it's 3.5 miles to an 8ish loop or out-no-
back and 3.5 back to the finish. If you have some
anticipated time you can study the results and get some idea
on how to pace each 8. Start out with a slow mentality and
if you still feel good you can work the last loop and back
to the barn.

-DougF

Tony said:

Lyle McDonald wrote in message
<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Tony wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

To start, I think you'll get more use out of what's on
this site

mariusbakken.commariusbakken.comOpen ↗

Fascinating stuff thanks for the link. Basically it seems
all these great runners do a very high percentage of their
training just below AT. It makes sense when you think
about it. The more the training that is done at that
level, the better the body will get at fueling that pace
and clearing lactic acid, and the less damage running at
that effort level will produce in the future. This
certainly flouts the conventional wisdom. A common thread
in those articles seems to be that the conventional modern
system of more "base" training and less speedwork leads to
the speedwork being overdone, burning out the athlete.

Actually, it makes me question the usual recommendations for
base work in the first place. I mean, most sources will
state that the best CV adaptations occur in the 75-80% max
HR range, and then they'll routine recommend much lower
intensities for long endurance work (I've seen 140 or lower
which is going to be below 75% for most people).

FWIW, the Carmichael training system (cycling) uses 88-91%
of heart rate during a specific field test (which amounts,
more or less to an LT test) for base building which is not
inconsistent with what the Kenyans are doing.

Even Lydaird's 'base' training was done at the highest
aerobic steady state (it wasn't LSD contrary to
popular beleif) which seems to be similar to the idea
of being rather close to LT (but still below it to
avoid burning out).

Lyle

Lyle McDonald said:

Quoted message said:

May have something to do with the way group runs tend to
work -- the pace always ends up fast.

Yup, was always a problem when I would cycle with a
partner/group. invaribly what was supposed to be an easy
spin turned into a hammer session by the end. Testosterone
is evil.

I see that it's universal. I suppose shouldn't be surprised.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And for the most part, they probably do most of their
base milage alone,

well, the point is that their base is probably being
developed in somewhat of an unstructured style during
their childhood/development (Lydiard claims the Kenyans
run to and from school, Tanser says that such beliefs are
incorrect).

It's hard to say.

Part of the problem is that the implicit assumption that
"the Kenyans" are completely homogeneous is myopic at best.
Perhaps the search for what "the Kenyans" really do is based
on a false premise.

Another part of the problem is that I don't trust Lydiard.
Or Owen Anderson, or anyone else. Most of these pundits are
trying to push a particular training theory, and invariably
conclude (surprise, surprise) that "the Kenyans" support
their theory. You're no doubt familiar with people playing
these sorts of games elsewhere.

Lydiard will tell us that "the Kenyans" do 100 mile weeks
(this is almost certainly correct) and spend childhood years
doing this (questionable), whereas some have suggested that
"the Kenyans" run 50-60 miles per week (just how does one
only totals 50-60 doing 3-a-days ? Especially if they're
running faster than 6:00 minutes per mile)

However, watching the movie "endurance" gave me the distinct
impression that living in the countryside in East Africa
does require one to become reasonably proficient at covering
fairly substantial distances, so even if they don't "run 10k
to school every day", they could easily be doing 20 miles
per week or more of walking.

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which probably makes for easier runs. I think most
athletes will converge on something close to Daniels' 'E'
pace if they are required to run a lot of milage on their
own (most people I know do their aerobic runs at about
this pace, though few have read Daniels)

Maybe running is different from cycling (well, duh), but
it seems that most athletes tend to work far too hard
during what is supposed to be easy training. Even
maintaining 75-80% max HR (say 150-160), much less 75% or
below (depending on who you believe regarding what
intensity it's best to do the work at) can be difficult.

It is different. It is very hard to adhere to strict heart
rate guidelines when running, you really need to go very
slowly to stay under 75%.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

"Lyle McDonald" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Donovan Rebbechi said:

On 2004-06-28, Lyle McDonald
<[email hidden]> wrote:

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runs are described as starting at an ambling pace and
generally finishing at/near race pace (I believe
Prefontaine regularly ran like

that).

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May have something to do with the way group runs tend to
work -- the

pace

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always ends up fast.

Yup, was always a problem when I would cycle with a
partner/group. invaribly what was supposed to be an easy
spin turned into a hammer session by the end. Testosterone
is evil.

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Been doing much reading on this topic recently and one
point that almost everyone makes is that the Kenyans
literally have years of base training behind them;

And for the most part, they probably do most of their
base milage alone,

well, the point is that their base is probably being
developed in somewhat of an unstructured style during
their childhood/development (Lydiard claims the Kenyans
run to and from school, Tanser says that such beliefs are
incorrect).

I believe that Tanser points out that NOW this is not
true, but at one time it was more the case. Runners are
identified much earlier now and moved into schools where
they learn and train.

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which probably makes for easier runs. I think most
athletes will converge on something close to Daniels'
'E' pace if they are required to run a lot

of

Quoted message said:

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milage on their own (most people I know do their aerobic
runs at about

this pace,

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though few have read Daniels)

Maybe running is different from cycling (well, duh), but
it seems that most athletes tend to work far too hard
during what is supposed to be easy training. Even
maintaining 75-80% max HR (say 150-160), much less 75% or
below (depending on who you believe regarding what
intensity it's best to do the work at) can be difficult.

Lyle