Morning Commute

Geoff S said:

Hi all,

I usually lurk, but my morning commute story from today is a good one, and
my SO who I usually share my stories with is out of town, so . . .

AsI was waiting at a red light today, a fairly big guy rides by going
through the red. Looked to me like a fairly new rider as the bike looked
quite new, as did the rack, trunk, and accessories he had along with it -
for you gearheads, looked like a Cannondale Bad Boy with disc brakes with a
little bell on the handlebar (I didn't hear a bell when he passed me at the
red light, though he dinged it for a cyclist we passed later on). So, I
catch up to him and as I'm passing, I look over and say "You need to obey
the traffic laws." I didn't say it angrily or flip him off or anything like
that, but just made a plain statement. Apparently, he didn't hear me the
first time, so I turn around and state it again, at which point I ride off.
I wasn't going much faster than him, but fast enough that at the end of this
particular stretch of road (~3/4 miles), I would've put about 60-70 yards on
him probably.

Well, a few moments later, he passes me on my left and moves over back into
the bike lane right in front of me, at which point I say - "Since you can go
so fast, you can stop at red lights." Still no reply, which is fine, and
passing me is fine as well since I just sat on his wheel for the rest of
that stretch of road. It was quite clear though that he was putting out
more effort than normal as his pace dropped 5-6 mph from after passing me to
when he turned off in a 1/2 mile or so (and No, I don't think he was slowing
down on purpose, since he seemed to be putting quite a bit of effort into it
still, and not just sitting up or coasting). No problem though for me - I
just sat there on the wheel, as I wasn't going to pull his ass anywhere.
Funny though - if that's the way other cyclist pay you back, I might be
tempted to [censored] more ppl off just so I can get the free pull.

Also, when he turned off, it was through a red light and around a car
waiting for the left turn in front of oncoming traffic (though a little ways
off). I'm torn, as it's nice to see cyclists on the road commuting and
whatnot, but as more people move to cycling, I think there'll be more jerks
giving cyclists bad names on the road. Licenses for cycling seems stupid to
me, but it seems there needs to be a way to educate new cyclist somehow -
I'm not as concerned for their safety as I am the retaliation from drivers
who get annoyed by them.

Oh well - Great Riding,
Geoff

Just wondering if some of the contributers to the wrong way riding
thread of last week are going to suggest that you should have pulled
ahead of him and blocked his way--all in the spirit of education of
course.

Geoff S said:

Hi all,

I usually lurk, but my morning commute story from today is a good one, and
my SO who I usually share my stories with is out of town, so . . .

AsI was waiting at a red light today, a fairly big guy rides by going
through the red. Looked to me like a fairly new rider as the bike looked
quite new, as did the rack, trunk, and accessories he had along with it -
for you gearheads, looked like a Cannondale Bad Boy with disc brakes with a
little bell on the handlebar (I didn't hear a bell when he passed me at the
red light, though he dinged it for a cyclist we passed later on). So, I
catch up to him and as I'm passing, I look over and say "You need to obey
the traffic laws." I didn't say it angrily or flip him off or anything like
that, but just made a plain statement. Apparently, he didn't hear me the
first time, so I turn around and state it again, at which point I ride off.
I wasn't going much faster than him, but fast enough that at the end of this
particular stretch of road (~3/4 miles), I would've put about 60-70 yards on
him probably.

Well, a few moments later, he passes me on my left and moves over back into
the bike lane right in front of me, at which point I say - "Since you can go
so fast, you can stop at red lights." Still no reply, which is fine, and
passing me is fine as well since I just sat on his wheel for the rest of
that stretch of road. It was quite clear though that he was putting out
more effort than normal as his pace dropped 5-6 mph from after passing me to
when he turned off in a 1/2 mile or so (and No, I don't think he was slowing
down on purpose, since he seemed to be putting quite a bit of effort into it
still, and not just sitting up or coasting). No problem though for me - I
just sat there on the wheel, as I wasn't going to pull his ass anywhere.
Funny though - if that's the way other cyclist pay you back, I might be
tempted to [censored] more ppl off just so I can get the free pull.

Also, when he turned off, it was through a red light and around a car
waiting for the left turn in front of oncoming traffic (though a little ways
off). I'm torn, as it's nice to see cyclists on the road commuting and
whatnot, but as more people move to cycling, I think there'll be more jerks
giving cyclists bad names on the road. Licenses for cycling seems stupid to
me, but it seems there needs to be a way to educate new cyclist somehow -
I'm not as concerned for their safety as I am the retaliation from drivers
who get annoyed by them.

Oh well - Great Riding,
Geoff

FWIW, I think you approached it the wrong way. First off, if he wasn't
aware of you, he probably didn't hear you the first time as his mind
was elsewhere. When I'm cycling by myself, the last thing I'm
expecting is for someone to talk to me.

More importantly, repeated unsolicited advice from strangers is likely
to be ignored. I'd suggest, for future situations, that you attempt to
strike up a conversation and get to know the cyclist. This may take
multiple meetings. If he is a noob and not a complete dolt, he'll ask
for advice about commuting, once he knows that you're an old hand at
it. At that point, you can strongly advise following all traffic laws.

Free advice, worth every penny.

Jeff

"Geoff S" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:1152293877.712599@sj-nntpcache-3:

Quoted message said:

I'm not as concerned for their safety as I am the retaliation from
drivers who get annoyed by them.

Hey, your story was funny, but this strikes me as a non-productive
attitude. If you aren't concerened about helping others learn, then maybe
they won't, and then they will just keep on pissing off drivers who will go
on to retaliate. Your worst fear! But, if you do take the time to care and
help, then the good karma gets spread all around and fluffy bunnies play
happily in fields of daisies.

--
fnood fneep gnip gnop
http://greep.flood.nit
[email hidden]

Geoff S wrote:
.. .

Quoted message said:

AsI was waiting at a red light today, a fairly big guy rides by going
through the red.

If somebody treats a red as a yield and breaks the law, albeit safely,
I STFU. If somebody runs a light, causing cars to jam their brakes, and
creates actual risk, I usually catch up with them and say something
nice like, "You f***ing blind, [censored]!?" Then I proceed merrily on my
way. There's never any reason to get patronizing and pedantic when
you're capable of cursing like an adult. :-P

Geoff S said:

As I was waiting at a red light today, a fairly big guy rides by going
through the red.

Quoted message said:

So, I
catch up to him and as I'm passing, I look over and say "You need to obey
the traffic laws."

Quoted message said:

Apparently, he didn't hear me the
first time, so I turn around and state it again, at which point I ride off.

Quoted message said:

I say - "Since you can go
so fast, you can stop at red lights."

Quoted message said:

No problem though for me - I
just sat there on the wheel, as I wasn't going to pull his ass anywhere.

Nice. Sanctimonious and vindictive. Personally, I hate it when some
random person drafts me without asking. That's much higher on my list of
"don'ts" than running red lights.

Quoted message said:

I'm not as concerned for their safety as I am the retaliation from drivers
who get annoyed by them.

So, all the crappy driver's behavior comes from "lawless" cyclists? And
you can tell that how?

Nice - selective quotation.

Peter Cole said:

Nice. Sanctimonious and vindictive.

True, I was a bit annoyed at him running the light and then cutting me off.
Perhaps not the best attitude I took in the first place, as others
suggested, but that was my initial reaction.

Quoted message said:

Personally, I hate it when some random person drafts me without asking.
That's much higher on my list of "don'ts" than running red lights.

Well, look at it this way - if I pass someone who is going, on average,
faster or as fast as I am, and then move right in front of them rather than
putting some distance between us before moving over, I can only expect that
they'll sit on my wheel for a bit. They're not going to just stop pedaling
or slow down b/c I passed them. As one who also dislikes random ppl
drafting me, I make it habit not to pass ppl who I realize I won't be able
to drop after a short bit. Usually, not a problem since you probably won't
catch up to them, but if you do - say, at a light - I let them have their
space and won't sit on their wheel. The move today by the other cyclist was
clearly vindictive, as well, not to say that eye-for-an-eye is a good
policy. At the same time though, he was moving faster than me when he
passed (obviously), and then (after cutting me off) as fast as me, and then
for a short bit slower than my usual pace. Had he not turned off, I would
have passed and tried to put some distance on him.

Quoted message said:

So, all the crappy driver's behavior comes from "lawless" cyclists? And
you can tell that how?

This statement is rediculous. I never said "all." Can I make a statement
that there are drivers out there who dislike cyclists due in part to the
law-breaking that they observe? Yes, I've spoken to quite a few. Can I say
that there are drivers out there who might retaliate b/c of these
observations, in one form or another? Perhaps not, but with all the road
rage and car-on-car (read: cage-on-cage) stuff one reads and hears about,
probably.

Sure, I need to work on my approach to these cyclists, and with more on the
road that advice is ever more emphasized.

Cheers!
Geoff

Geoff S said:

Hi all,

I usually lurk, but my morning commute story from today is a good
one, and my SO who I usually share my stories with is out of town, so
. . .
AsI was waiting at a red light today, a fairly big guy rides by going
through the red. Looked to me like a fairly new rider as the bike
looked quite new, as did the rack, trunk, and accessories he had
along with it - for you gearheads, looked like a Cannondale Bad Boy
with disc brakes with a little bell on the handlebar (I didn't hear a
bell when he passed me at the red light, though he dinged it for a
cyclist we passed later on). So, I catch up to him and as I'm
passing, I look over and say "You need to obey the traffic laws." I
didn't say it angrily or flip him off or anything like that, but just
made a plain statement. Apparently, he didn't hear me the first
time, so I turn around and state it again, at which point I ride off.
I wasn't going much faster than him, but fast enough that at the end
of this particular stretch of road (~3/4 miles), I would've put about
60-70 yards on him probably.
Well, a few moments later, he passes me on my left and moves over
back into the bike lane right in front of me, at which point I say -
"Since you can go so fast, you can stop at red lights." Still no
reply, which is fine, and passing me is fine as well since I just sat
on his wheel for the rest of that stretch of road. It was quite
clear though that he was putting out more effort than normal as his
pace dropped 5-6 mph from after passing me to when he turned off in a
1/2 mile or so (and No, I don't think he was slowing down on purpose,
since he seemed to be putting quite a bit of effort into it still,
and not just sitting up or coasting). No problem though for me - I
just sat there on the wheel, as I wasn't going to pull his ass
anywhere. Funny though - if that's the way other cyclist pay you
back, I might be tempted to [censored] more ppl off just so I can get the
free pull.
Also, when he turned off, it was through a red light and around a car
waiting for the left turn in front of oncoming traffic (though a
little ways off). I'm torn, as it's nice to see cyclists on the road
commuting and whatnot, but as more people move to cycling, I think
there'll be more jerks giving cyclists bad names on the road. Licenses for
cycling seems stupid to me, but it seems there needs to
be a way to educate new cyclist somehow - I'm not as concerned for
their safety as I am the retaliation from drivers who get annoyed by
them.

Unless what he's doing endangers /you/, I suggest MYOB.

Sorni

"landotter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Geoff S wrote:
. .

Quoted message said:

AsI was waiting at a red light today, a fairly big guy rides by going
through the red.

If somebody treats a red as a yield and breaks the law, albeit safely,
I STFU. If somebody runs a light, causing cars to jam their brakes, and
creates actual risk, I usually catch up with them and say something
nice like, "You f***ing blind, [censored]!?" Then I proceed merrily on my
way. There's never any reason to get patronizing and pedantic when
you're capable of cursing like an adult. :-P

That's a good way to rile up a psycho and escalate a traffic issue into a
violent situation.

Gooserider said:

"landotter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Geoff S wrote:
. .

Quoted message said:

AsI was waiting at a red light today, a fairly big guy rides by going
through the red.

If somebody treats a red as a yield and breaks the law, albeit safely,
I STFU. If somebody runs a light, causing cars to jam their brakes, and
creates actual risk, I usually catch up with them and say something
nice like, "You f***ing blind, [censored]!?" Then I proceed merrily on my
way. There's never any reason to get patronizing and pedantic when
you're capable of cursing like an adult. :-P

That's a good way to rile up a psycho and escalate a traffic issue into a
violent situation.

They'll have to catch me first. The risk is worth the catharsis.

Always check for guns or bulky clothing first, as you never
know--getting a spear in the neck is soooo not aero.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Always check for guns or bulky clothing first, as you never
know--getting a spear in the neck is soooo not aero.

^^^^^
What, you ride with Vikings and longshoremen? And I thought Chicago was
tough...

--

__o Kristian Zoerhoff
_'\(,_ [email hidden]
(_)/ (_)

On Fri, 7 Jul 2006 10:37:57 -0700, "Geoff S" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Hi all,

I usually lurk, but my morning commute story from today is a good one, and
my SO who I usually share my stories with is out of town, so . . .

AsI was waiting at a red light today, a fairly big guy rides by going
through the red. Looked to me like a fairly new rider as the bike looked
quite new, as did the rack, trunk, and accessories he had along with it -
for you gearheads, looked like a Cannondale Bad Boy with disc brakes with a
little bell on the handlebar (I didn't hear a bell when he passed me at the
red light, though he dinged it for a cyclist we passed later on). So, I
catch up to him and as I'm passing, I look over and say "You need to obey
the traffic laws." I didn't say it angrily or flip him off or anything like
that, but just made a plain statement. Apparently, he didn't hear me the
first time, so I turn around and state it again, at which point I ride off.
I wasn't going much faster than him, but fast enough that at the end of this
particular stretch of road (~3/4 miles), I would've put about 60-70 yards on
him probably.
...

I run red lights routinely. My commute is 80 minutes. Stopping for
every red light (I'm in NYC) would add another half hour to the total
and I just can't kill another hour each day. Believe it or not, the
lights are timed for cars, not bikes. I can make maybe three or four
lights at a time, then I hit a red. Of course, virtually all of our
lights are one ways and I try to stay on whichever side of the road is
cleared by turning cars.

I am very respectful of pedestrians and cars who have the right of way
or even don't have the right of way. But I'm not going to sit at a
light just to cool my heels.

Geoff S said:

I'm torn, as it's nice to see cyclists on the road commuting and
whatnot, but as more people move to cycling, I think there'll be more jerks
giving cyclists bad names on the road. Licenses for cycling seems stupid to
me, but it seems there needs to be a way to educate new cyclist somehow -

Once cycling becomes more commonplace, you'll see cycle training of
children and similar things become more commonplace. Right now it's a
minority, mostly solo activity. There will always be people who act
like horses patoots, the best you can hope is to make them a minority
and hope they are cited by the police if they do anything too
egregious.

Quoted message said:

I'm not as concerned for their safety as I am the retaliation from drivers
who get annoyed by them.

Doubtful. There seems to be a large body of experience showing that
people who attack other people with their vehicles rarely even have that
much justification. It's simply a case of xenophobia in most cases.
Attacking the *other* because it's *other*. The motivations given later
for the attack usually smack of rationalization after the fact.

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
"When two people are under the influence of the most violent,
most insane, most delusive, and most transient of passions,
they are required to swear that they will remain in that
excited, abnormal and exhausting condition until death do
them part." -George Bernard Shaw

Kristian M Zoerhoff said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Always check for guns or bulky clothing first, as you never
know--getting a spear in the neck is soooo not aero.

^^^^^
What, you ride with Vikings and longshoremen? And I thought Chicago was
tough...

Just being hyperbolic. :P

I commuted for quite a few years in the Chicago core. From 97 to 01 or
so. It aint tough unless you messenger, otherwise a fantastic city for
cyclists. Winter especially. Riding with fenders beats the [censored] out of
getting wet feet waiting for the bus or freezing to death on a train
platform.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

More importantly, repeated unsolicited advice from strangers is likely
to be ignored.

Or, worse, get you in an argument you'd rather not have.

In article <1152293877.712599@sj-nntpcache-3>,

Geoff S said:

Hi all,

I usually lurk, but my morning commute story from today is a good one, and
my SO who I usually share my stories with is out of town, so . . .

AsI was waiting at a red light today, a fairly big guy rides by going
through the red. Looked to me like a fairly new rider as the bike looked
quite new, as did the rack, trunk, and accessories he had along with it -
for you gearheads, looked like a Cannondale Bad Boy with disc brakes with a
little bell on the handlebar (I didn't hear a bell when he passed me at the
red light, though he dinged it for a cyclist we passed later on). So, I
catch up to him and as I'm passing, I look over and say "You need to obey

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Quoted message said:

the traffic laws."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Such imperative sentences can be confrontational. Which can
be good if you really wanna start something. But I think you
were sincerely trying for a softer, more diplomatic approach.

Quoted message said:

I didn't say it angrily or flip him off or anything like
that, but just made a plain statement. Apparently, he didn't hear me the
first time, so I turn around and state it again, at which point I ride off.
I wasn't going much faster than him, but fast enough that at the end of this
particular stretch of road (~3/4 miles), I would've put about 60-70 yards on
him probably.

Well, a few moments later, he passes me on my left and moves over back into
the bike lane right in front of me, at which point I say - "Since you can go

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Quoted message said:

so fast, you can stop at red lights." Still no reply, which is fine, and

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And maybe that might have sounded a little sarcastic to the
red light runner guy.

Quoted message said:

passing me is fine as well since I just sat on his wheel for the rest of
that stretch of road. It was quite clear though that he was putting out
more effort than normal as his pace dropped 5-6 mph from after passing me to
when he turned off in a 1/2 mile or so (and No, I don't think he was slowing
down on purpose, since he seemed to be putting quite a bit of effort into it
still, and not just sitting up or coasting). No problem though for me - I
just sat there on the wheel, as I wasn't going to pull his ass anywhere.
Funny though - if that's the way other cyclist pay you back, I might be
tempted to [censored] more ppl off just so I can get the free pull.

Some of my routes have cyclists' pushbutton-controlled traffic lights.
I rather like having someone ahead of me to push the buttons for me.

Quoted message said:

Also, when he turned off, it was through a red light and around a car
waiting for the left turn in front of oncoming traffic (though a little ways
off). I'm torn, as it's nice to see cyclists on the road commuting and
whatnot, but as more people move to cycling, I think there'll be more jerks
giving cyclists bad names on the road.

Some folks just ride the same way as they drive -- selfishly and
inconsiderately. I often see them at stop lines waiting for
cross traffic, where, instead of forming an orderly queue (or
at least a masse start,) they butt-in in front of whomever's at
the front of the line, until some of 'em are actually infringing
on the cross-traffic. Then they've gotta ride around in stoopid
little circles (sometimes not so little, to the chagrine of other
street users) to avoid getting hit while waiting for the light
to change. There's a strange property of bicycles, where a lot
of people -- including some fellow riders -- just don't like
seeing a bicycle in front of them.

Quoted message said:

Licenses for cycling seems stupid to
me, but it seems there needs to be a way to educate new cyclist somehow -
I'm not as concerned for their safety as I am the retaliation from drivers

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Quoted message said:

who get annoyed by them.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That seems to be a common intuitive conclusion a lot of people
reach, but I seriously question its validity.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Bill Sornson said:

Unless what he's doing endangers /you/, I suggest MYOB.

Sorni

That's also my attitude. I rarely say anything critical to other bike
riders. The most frequent occasion is kids riding at night with no lights
or reflectors, who are a huge danger to themselves. My remarks emphasize
their invisibility, something like: "You should know I could barely see
you. You really need to get a tail light."

If someone on a bicycle does something that immediately puts me at risk
(wrong way, no lights on a narrow dark bike path, etc.) I frequently say
something, more as a means of venting my irritation than anything else.
I seriously doubt that any of the people I've yelled "right side of the
road" or "get some lights" at gave a damn about my advice. It's probably
just as well that the people I yelled this at were going in the opposite
direction.

I would be rather annoyed if someone chased me down and bothered me
repeatedly with unwanted advice, no matter how well intentioned or
valuable the advice was. If you do this enough times someone is probably
going to respond with physical violence.

Just my $.02 worth.

mark

Ron Wallenfang said:

"Bill Sornson" wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Unless what he's doing endangers /you/, I suggest MYOB.

Quoted message said:

That's also my attitude. I rarely say anything critical to other bike
riders. The most frequent occasion is kids riding at night with no
lights or reflectors, who are a huge danger to themselves. My
remarks emphasize their invisibility, something like: "You should
know I could barely see you. You really need to get a tail light."

Yup. Even then I might say instead, "You might want to get a...." or "You
should get a..." rather than "need to".

No one likes to be lectured...unless they're around Frank F., that is! LOL

Geoff S said:

"Peter Cole" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, all the crappy driver's behavior comes from "lawless" cyclists? And
you can tell that how?

This statement is rediculous. I never said "all." Can I make a statement
that there are drivers out there who dislike cyclists due in part to the
law-breaking that they observe? Yes, I've spoken to quite a few. Can I say
that there are drivers out there who might retaliate b/c of these
observations, in one form or another? Perhaps not, but with all the road
rage and car-on-car (read: cage-on-cage) stuff one reads and hears about,
probably.

This is pure speculation on your part. My suspicion is that your opinion
is just made-up justification for your sanctimoniousness. Perhaps the
vindictiveness you imagine in car drivers is just a reflection of your own.

I hold drivers responsible for their behavior, period. If a cyclist
endangers me, I'll express myself -- fair, I think, since we're both
likely equally at risk.