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More thoughts on crank length

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15 December 2005
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  1. I have been riding for a while now on long, proportional length cranks.
    My performance level has increased since the switch from 175 to 195. I
    measured my performance on a climb, and also have felt stronger, and
    have received unsolicited comments from 3 strong riders in our club who
    noticed I have "kicked it up a notch." There are certainly many other
    factors involved, but I still believe that the switch was a major
    contributor to my improvement. Whether it is a direct result of
    improved efficiency, a result of a more comfortable position on the
    bike, or just from chemicals in my head, I don't know. But I have
    though about it quite a bit, and here is my conclusion.

    Crank-length is much like stem length. It is a variable parameter that
    has both a comfort component, and a speed component. While both
    parameters need to be considered in choosing a stem or crank length,
    one does not necessarily come at the expense of another.

    Stem length is used to get a comfortable position, and to help put the
    rider into an aerodynamic position to make best use of available power.
    There are many factors in determining stem length, and there is
    probably no such thing as an optimal stem length for any given rider.
    In general shorter riders use shorter stems, and taller riders use
    longer stems, but there are many exceptions to this which are not
    deemed strange. Also, most people pay no attention to the stem length
    and do just fine on the one that came with their bike.

    Crank-length I believe falls into the same category. Most people are
    comfortable in the standard range, and as a general observation, larger
    people can make use of longer cranks. And as with stems, most people
    pay no attention to crank-length and do just fine.

    Crank-length is both a comfort issue, and a power production issue. And
    as with stem length these two do not necessarily detract from each
    other.

    In an earlier thread on the same subject, Ron Ruff did an interesting
    experiment trying different cadences on a hill. His results showed
    pretty much what has been shown elsewhere that power isn't really
    affected that much by cadence, cadence, gearing, and most likely
    crank-length. But he also noted that certain cadences didn't "feel"
    right. That got me thinking. And after much thought, I think that
    cadence, crank-length, pedal speed, and gearing are of no interest on
    their own. They are only of interest as secondary indicators. The only
    factors that are actually of interest are force applied to the pedals,
    and muscle contraction speed. Gearing, cadence, and crank-length are
    just factors juggled to get a chosen power output from a comfortable
    combination of applied force and muscle contraction speed.

    When bikes with gears are ridden, riders use the gears to regulate
    their cadence. Cadence remains more or less constant, while force
    applied to the pedals varied greatly dependent upon speed. People are
    apparenlty much more comfortable changing force than cadence. While a
    given cadence may feel too hard or light, I beleive we are more likely
    to perceive a cadence as too fast or too slow. We are much more
    flexible when it comes to force than cadence.

    Cadence can also be thought of as muscle contraction speed. How muscle
    contraction speed is measured, I don't know but it the context of
    cycling, I guess we could say that the speed of angular change of the
    knee during a power stroke would work. Say (to keep it simple) a
    rider's knee bends 90 deg from top of the stroke to bottom of the
    stroke. At a cadence of 90 this is a "speed" of 270DEG/second. That is
    a strange unit, but we can at least compare it to another situation.
    Say the rider only bends their knee 85 degrees in a power stroke (due
    to short cranks). This means at 90 cadence they have a "speed" of
    255DEG/sec. About a 5% difference. Suppose this speed is outside of
    what is comfortable. The rider must increase the cadence to get the
    angular speed to something comfortable. But they then must adjust
    gearing to compensate for the increased pedal speed, and the gear feels
    too light so maybe they just up the power and ride faster instead, but
    it doesn't really matter. This is fine until the riders reaches max
    power and is not able to find a comfortable balance between angular
    speed (and thus pedal speed), and force to the pedals which gives a
    balanced equation with available max power.

    Riders with long (possibly heavy) legs that are riding relatively short
    cranks at the same cadence as a shorter rider, are using their muscles
    more slowly than the shorter rider. To get the same muscle speed they
    would need to increase their cadence which would feel odd, and perhaps
    become inefficient just from moving the mass around with no other
    benefit other than canceling an otherwise sub optimal situation. Crank
    length can be used to effect changes in muscle contractrion speed while
    keeping cadence within a narrow band. This may be of interest to riders
    of all sizes, but I suppose in general it means (much as with stems)
    taller riders will want longer ones, and shorter riders will want
    shorter ones. But it is more tha height. It is a preference of the
    balnce of the involved factors, which perhaps transcend something as
    simple as height, and perhaps have to do with body or muscle type, etc.

    In short, I think my 195's allow me to use my muscles at the same rate
    as shorter riders without having to adjust my cadence. Maintaining the
    comfortable balance between muscle contraction speed and thus pedal
    speed (as a result of cadence) and pedal force allows me to use a
    higher gear than otherwise which results in higher speed. In general I
    am comfortable applying more force to a pedal than a shorter rider of
    similar condition, but I am not comfortable applying that force at a
    different rate. Using a sub-optimal rate wastes my ability to otherwise
    apply more force by forcing me to compensate by increasing my cadence
    which has a very narrow band of comfort (and I presume efficiency).
    Achieving an optimal rate without otherwise resorting to sub-optimal
    cadences allows me to take advantage of my ability to generate more
    force.

    This rant reminds me of a quote from "12 Monkeys":

    "Science isn't an exact science with these clowns!"

    Joseph

  2. Quoted message said:

    I have been riding for a while now on long, proportional length cranks.
    My performance level has increased since the switch from 175 to 195. I
    measured my performance on a climb, and also have felt stronger, and
    have received unsolicited comments from 3 strong riders in our club who
    noticed I have "kicked it up a notch."

    If you are actually getting higher *power* numbers, I'm sure Mr. Zinn
    would like to hear from you!

    Some thoughts...

    The trade-off that you are making by adjusting the crank length is
    cadence x force vs range of motion. Pedal speed x force though, will be
    exactly the same in either case if your power is the same... so I don't
    think the muscle contraction rate is much of a factor here... rather
    the range of motion.

    It is possible that a person might benefit from longer cranks if there
    is a disconnect between their optimum muscle contraction rate, and
    their ability to change direction of motion smoothly and quickly...ie
    they'd "like" to be moving their feet fast, but are unable to make that
    little circle efficiently. Others may have more trouble with the range
    of motion being greater than optimum and would benefit from shorter
    cranks. Testing though (by Martin and others), has shown little
    correlation based on rider leg length, and the average power vs crank
    length curve is very broad and nearly flat... and centered around
    170mm.

    I think your comparison of optimum crank length and cadence and how
    they "feel" is a valid one... but maybe not very important either. One
    interesting discovery from my cadence experiments is that a high force
    with low cadence felt odd the first time I did it... but later on in
    the interval set, it felt much better. In fact, it felt more
    comfortable than my "optimum" cadence, though it was slightly slower.
    Riding at a high cadence felt worse the second time than the first.

    The real test is not so much "feel", but which one allows you to
    produce more power (or go faster) for a given time? If the long cranks
    are working for you, then that is great!... but it wouldn't be true for
    every tall person. And it is also possible that a average sized person
    like me might prefer long (or short) cranks. I'd like to try sometime,
    just to see what it felt like...

  3. Ron Ruff said:
    Quoted message said:

    I have been riding for a while now on long, proportional length cranks.
    My performance level has increased since the switch from 175 to 195. I
    measured my performance on a climb, and also have felt stronger, and
    have received unsolicited comments from 3 strong riders in our club who
    noticed I have "kicked it up a notch."

    If you are actually getting higher *power* numbers, I'm sure Mr. Zinn
    would like to hear from you!

    I don't have a power-meter, but based on climb tests and improved TT
    times, I think I have improved power. There are other factors, but
    since it is now winter and the fall was very wet and I didn't ride that
    much, I expected my power to actually go down due to lost conditioning.

    Quoted message said:

    Some thoughts...

    The trade-off that you are making by adjusting the crank length is
    cadence x force vs range of motion. Pedal speed x force though, will be
    exactly the same in either case if your power is the same... so I don't
    think the muscle contraction rate is much of a factor here... rather
    the range of motion.

    But it is range of motion over a given time (cadence) which IS
    contraction speed. Pedal speed x force go linearly, but does
    contraction rate?

    Quoted message said:

    It is possible that a person might benefit from longer cranks if there
    is a disconnect between their optimum muscle contraction rate, and
    their ability to change direction of motion smoothly and quickly...ie
    they'd "like" to be moving their feet fast, but are unable to make that
    little circle efficiently. Others may have more trouble with the range
    of motion being greater than optimum and would benefit from shorter
    cranks. Testing though (by Martin and others), has shown little
    correlation based on rider leg length, and the average power vs crank
    length curve is very broad and nearly flat... and centered around
    170mm.

    This gets into the general idea that short cranks are for spinners, and
    long ones for mashers. But what is it that defines spinning vs mashing?
    Is it force, or pedal speed? I think it is force. But crank length
    forces spinners or mashers into certain cadences (given their
    preference for certain force levels) to generate certain power levels.

    Quoted message said:

    I think your comparison of optimum crank length and cadence and how
    they "feel" is a valid one... but maybe not very important either. One
    interesting discovery from my cadence experiments is that a high force
    with low cadence felt odd the first time I did it... but later on in
    the interval set, it felt much better. In fact, it felt more
    comfortable than my "optimum" cadence, though it was slightly slower.
    Riding at a high cadence felt worse the second time than the first.

    I only started noticing this issue when I started riding with fast
    groups again. I could never seem to find the right gear. Even with 53
    12-13-14-15-16-17 one always felt too heavy or too light to match the
    speed of the group. (The MTB has such big gearing gaps and varied
    terrain I never concerend myself that finding the right gear was
    difficult) I didn't notice this riding on my own, because I think I
    always settled into certain speeds where I was in some sort of comfort
    band. But these bands seem to have some sort of quantum character about
    them. With the long cranks I don't have this problem anymore. It way be
    that I just don't have to push as hard for a given power, which gives
    me a little more leeway in each gear. What this means at max power, I
    don't know. But at least at sub-max I think it flattens my power band
    in a way. More diesel, less two-stroke.

    Quoted message said:

    The real test is not so much "feel", but which one allows you to
    produce more power (or go faster) for a given time? If the long cranks
    are working for you, then that is great!... but it wouldn't be true for
    every tall person. And it is also possible that a average sized person
    like me might prefer long (or short) cranks. I'd like to try sometime,
    just to see what it felt like...

    Feel may be misleading in terms of max power, but I think it probably
    has a very significant affect on endurance. Sort of a constructive
    laziness. Your body knows best how to conserve energy and it lets you
    know.

    I agree that long for tall folks, short for short is too simplistic.
    That is why I drew the comparison to stems. In general long for tall,
    but it is not a rule, and it is not for it's own sake, but is the
    result of other considerations. I think the crank length issue may
    actually have more to do with body type and muscle mass than length. It
    would be interesting to see a study of crank-length, power, cadence for
    groups of riders all the same height or leg-length but with
    significantly different body types.

    You could try short cranks pretty cheaply or maybe for free. Lots of
    kids bikes come with square-taper 152mm. If you had an inseam of 82cm
    using 152mm cranks would be like me using 175mm. Since you have 85cm, I
    guess it would be more like me using 172.5. That should give about the
    same range of motion with the seat-pedal height set to 109%. I think
    you should go to the bike store and get them to lend you some kids'
    152's and do your hill-cadence test!

    Joseph

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