more Taubes stuff

Davis blogged about him today.

Bernstein mentioned him on his teleconference last night.

I still haven't finished the book myself yet...

--
http://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/

"Jim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jackie Patti said:

Davis blogged about him today.

Bernstein mentioned him on his teleconference last night.

I still haven't finished the book myself yet...

It is a slow read, isn't it?

I find that I have to go back often and reread chapters and sections,
just because I can't remember all of the new stuff I am being exposed to.

I haven't worked this hard on a book for a very long time.

My experience was encountering information and references that required
giving up a number of "self evident truths" that have been passed around.

Have you had the same experience, or had you been current enough on this
research that you had avoided these kinds of "self evident truths"?

This was my experience reading the book as well. Stick with it, it just gets
better and better right to the end.

Alan

Jim said:

Have you had the same experience, or had you been current enough on this
research that you had avoided these kinds of "self evident truths"?

For the most part, I am finding most of the arguments familiar from much
low-carb reading over the course of more than a decade at it. On the
other hand, he puts it all together in an interesting way, so I'm
finding it an enjoyable read.

There have also been a few tidbits that I was not aware of, or had never
thought about properly. For example, the bit about all monosaccharides
contributing to glycation of proteins - it had never occured to me
before that fructose would contribute to making the HbA1c not directly
related to blood glucose readings.

All-in-all, I'd say it's definetly worth reading.

--
http://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/

Jackie Patti said:

Davis blogged about him today.

Bernstein mentioned him on his teleconference last night.

I still haven't finished the book myself yet...

'Davis'? Would you mind pointing to Davis?

Jean Genie said:

Jackie Patti said:

Davis blogged about him today.

Bernstein mentioned him on his teleconference last night.

I still haven't finished the book myself yet...

'Davis'? Would you mind pointing to Davis?

http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/

--
http://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/

I had to powerhouse my way through Taubes today as it's due back at the
library and can't be renewed as there's a waiting list for it cause they
only got 5 copies.

I was very impressed at his ability to cover the Kreb's cycle,
lipolysis, etc and manage to translate it to laymen's language. My
college biochemistry textbook was easily twice as thick as this and
didn't have to "translate" for laymen. Course, it had a lot more
details, but... the thing is no one remembers all that stuff anyways.
Most you remember is stuff like the Kreb's cycle produces ATP in the
mitochondria... and Taubes manages to cover all the bits one actually
remembers. It might be somewhat tough reading for some laymen, but he
does manage to make the basic metabolism of carbohydrate and fat pretty
accessible for non-chemists (he has much less on the metabolism of
protein though).

He doesn't just discuss insulin and I'm not sure why people come away
from the book thinking that. He makes a big deal out of the importance
of the hypothalamus-pituitary axis in regulating both appetite and fat
storage. He discusses the importance of the sex hormones with regards
to fat storage also. He provides a summary of the hormones known to
regulate fat storage as of 1965 includes: epinephrine, norepinephrine,
ACTH, glucagon, TSH, melanocyte-stimulating hormone, vasopressin and
growth hormone as well as insulin. That being said, he doesn't address
adrenal hormones beyond epinephrine and norepinephrine hardly at all.
He discusses some experiments with rats with their adrenals surgically
removed, but it's basically about aldosterone (though he doesn't refer
to the hormone by name). Not a word about cortisol anywhere.

I'm not sure why people come away from the book thinking he says not to
exercise. Rather, he points out that fat storage is related to calories
in and calories out pretty directly. He simply points out there's some
confusion about what is the cause and what is the effect - which
variables are independent in that equation. He also points out that
exercise is not the entirety of "calories out" as basal metabolism is
also effected. He seems to believe that excess fat storage causes a
reduction in both basal metabolism and the natural desire to exercise -
lean people burn calories at a higher rate even when sleeping and
naturally enjoy moving more. But nowhere does he say that exercise is
not good.

I think this is the best and most thorough low-carb book I've ever read.
Lots of information I've run across in many different places is all
organized here, as well as a few studies I wasn't familair with. Beats
the heck out of Protein Power, which is no longer my favorite low-carb
book now that GCBC is available. In between finishing reading it and
returning it to the library, I ordered a copy from Amazon as it's a good
reference book that should sit on my desk next to Bernstein and my book
of food counts.

--
http://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/

Jackie Patti said:

I think this is the best and most thorough low-carb book I've ever read.
Lots of information I've run across in many different places is all
organized here, as well as a few studies I wasn't familair with. Beats
the heck out of Protein Power, which is no longer my favorite low-carb
book now that GCBC is available. In between finishing reading it and
returning it to the library, I ordered a copy from Amazon as it's a good
reference book that should sit on my desk next to Bernstein and my book
of food counts.

Did you ever read Lyle McDonald's book, "The Ketogenic
Diet - A Complete Guide for the Dieter and Practitioner"?

--
Rudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond.

"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!"
-Emiliano Zapata

Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at:
http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm

RRzVRR said:

Jackie Patti said:

I think this is the best and most thorough low-carb book I've ever
read. Lots of information I've run across in many different places is
all organized here, as well as a few studies I wasn't familair with.
Beats the heck out of Protein Power, which is no longer my favorite
low-carb book now that GCBC is available. In between finishing
reading it and returning it to the library, I ordered a copy from
Amazon as it's a good reference book that should sit on my desk next
to Bernstein and my book of food counts.

Did you ever read Lyle McDonald's book, "The Ketogenic
Diet - A Complete Guide for the Dieter and Practitioner"?

I just read a small extract from Amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/Ketogenic-Diet-Complete-Dieter-Practitioner/dp/0967145600/ref=sr_1_2/103-2145203-0980629?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193656453&sr=8-2

It looks very interesting, but after reading Taubes to the end, I am
ready to read a couple of relaxing novels before embarking on anything
medically heavy again.

Thanks for the tip.

RRzVRR said:

Since this was off the beaten path, I thought some might
find the exchange between Taubes the NYT Book reviewer
Kolata interesting.

My thought was that Kolata won't acknowledge the concept of
human behavior (and/or addiction) effecting dieting... let
alone how that behavior (and/or addiction) would be hard to
overcome if it receives a constant bombardment of messages
from the educational, media & medical communities
encouraging the addiction.

What I thought was most interesting in Kolata being assigned to
review the book is that she is excoriated, personally, throughout
the book. She and the rest of the Times nutrition/health staff are
raked throughout the book, with the lone good thing said about
anyone at the Times said about Kolata. Since the NYTimes book
reivew regularly farms out reviews to qualified outsiders, I think
this is something the Times ombudsman might want to take a
look at, because the old painted lady's credibility as a source for
quality information without biases (much less grudges) is at
stake.

Very curious. If I were Taubes, in my response, I might've brought
this issue up. Raise all the facts, then speculate on Kolata's real
motivations (she has a book out, after all, that probably looks very
stupid with Good Calories, Bad Calories on the market, which both
presents the flaws with her underlying theories, the flaws with her
reporting over a 20 year span, and an alternative hypothesis that
blows her book out of the water). I dunno about you, but with
all that going on, can she really read it with unvarnished eyes?

Hollywood said:

RRzVRR said:

Since this was off the beaten path, I thought some might
find the exchange between Taubes the NYT Book reviewer
Kolata interesting.

My thought was that Kolata won't acknowledge the concept of
human behavior (and/or addiction) effecting dieting... let
alone how that behavior (and/or addiction) would be hard to
overcome if it receives a constant bombardment of messages
from the educational, media & medical communities
encouraging the addiction.

What I thought was most interesting in Kolata being assigned to
review the book is that she is excoriated, personally, throughout
the book. She and the rest of the Times nutrition/health staff are
raked throughout the book, with the lone good thing said about
anyone at the Times said about Kolata. Since the NYTimes book
reivew regularly farms out reviews to qualified outsiders, I think
this is something the Times ombudsman might want to take a
look at, because the old painted lady's credibility as a source for
quality information without biases (much less grudges) is at
stake.

Very curious. If I were Taubes, in my response, I might've brought
this issue up. Raise all the facts, then speculate on Kolata's real
motivations (she has a book out, after all, that probably looks very
stupid with Good Calories, Bad Calories on the market, which both
presents the flaws with her underlying theories, the flaws with her
reporting over a 20 year span, and an alternative hypothesis that
blows her book out of the water). I dunno about you, but with
all that going on, can she really read it with unvarnished eyes?

MEOW ! ~

But the suggestions of misreading the literature are more than a mere
catfight.

Well, there is an essential aspect called "do you know more about the
scientific method than a five year old?"

The book is a massive statement that the medical/nutrition industry is
far from scientific, as have been most of the conventional nutrition
writers.

In her book, she portrayed the massive criticism of Banting as did
Taubes. Yet, she neglected the entire role of poor quality science, I
believe.

Taubes referenced 7 of her works, but not her recent book, which may
have been too recently published to get into the slow book
publishing/printing/distributing cycle.

Taubes lists himself only twice in the bibliography.

RRzVRR said:

Jackie Patti said:

I think this is the best and most thorough low-carb book I've ever
read. Lots of information I've run across in many different places is
all organized here, as well as a few studies I wasn't familair with.
Beats the heck out of Protein Power, which is no longer my favorite
low-carb book now that GCBC is available. In between finishing
reading it and returning it to the library, I ordered a copy from
Amazon as it's a good reference book that should sit on my desk next
to Bernstein and my book of food counts.

Did you ever read Lyle McDonald's book, "The Ketogenic
Diet - A Complete Guide for the Dieter and Practitioner"?

No. I've read a lot of Lyle's stuff, mostly articles, the forums on his
web site and one e-book, but not that book.

In general, my impression is that Lyle is more into recent research and
quite a bit more technical than Taubes is. I've also not seen Lyle
address some of the specific stuff Tubes did - or not from the same
viewpoint anyway.

--
http://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/

Hollywood said:

RRzVRR said:

Since this was off the beaten path, I thought some might
find the exchange between Taubes the NYT Book reviewer
Kolata interesting.

My thought was that Kolata won't acknowledge the concept of
human behavior (and/or addiction) effecting dieting... let
alone how that behavior (and/or addiction) would be hard to
overcome if it receives a constant bombardment of messages
from the educational, media & medical communities
encouraging the addiction.

What I thought was most interesting in Kolata being assigned to
review the book is that she is excoriated, personally, throughout
the book. She and the rest of the Times nutrition/health staff are
raked throughout the book, with the lone good thing said about
anyone at the Times said about Kolata. Since the NYTimes book
reivew regularly farms out reviews to qualified outsiders, I think
this is something the Times ombudsman might want to take a
look at, because the old painted lady's credibility as a source for
quality information without biases (much less grudges) is at
stake.

I guess they thought Jane Brody would be just too amusing?

Quoted message said:

Very curious. If I were Taubes, in my response, I might've brought
this issue up. Raise all the facts, then speculate on Kolata's real
motivations (she has a book out, after all, that probably looks very
stupid with Good Calories, Bad Calories on the market, which both
presents the flaws with her underlying theories, the flaws with her
reporting over a 20 year span, and an alternative hypothesis that
blows her book out of the water). I dunno about you, but with
all that going on, can she really read it with unvarnished eyes?

--
Rudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond.

"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!"
-Emiliano Zapata

Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at:
http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm

Jackie Patti said:

RRzVRR said:

Jackie Patti said:

I think this is the best and most thorough low-carb book I've ever
read. Lots of information I've run across in many different places is
all organized here, as well as a few studies I wasn't familair
with. Beats the heck out of Protein Power, which is no longer my
favorite low-carb book now that GCBC is available. In between
finishing reading it and returning it to the library, I ordered a
copy from Amazon as it's a good reference book that should sit on my
desk next to Bernstein and my book of food counts.

Did you ever read Lyle McDonald's book, "The Ketogenic
Diet - A Complete Guide for the Dieter and Practitioner"?

No. I've read a lot of Lyle's stuff, mostly articles, the forums on his
web site and one e-book, but not that book.

In general, my impression is that Lyle is more into recent research and
quite a bit more technical than Taubes is. I've also not seen Lyle
address some of the specific stuff Tubes did - or not from the same
viewpoint anyway.

There's a lot in the book that most LC eaters may never need
to know (pre bodybuilding contest plans which come up late
in the book), but it does a very good job at explaining the
basics of fuel systems and LC.

--
Rudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond.

"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!"
-Emiliano Zapata

Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at:
http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm

Thanks for a nice review....I need to get back to my copy...I got distracted
recently with a new computer and what is soon to be a new bike! 🙂

"Jackie Patti" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I had to powerhouse my way through Taubes today as it's due back at the
library and can't be renewed as there's a waiting list for it cause they
only got 5 copies.

I was very impressed at his ability to cover the Kreb's cycle, lipolysis,
etc and manage to translate it to laymen's language. My college
biochemistry textbook was easily twice as thick as this and didn't have to
"translate" for laymen. Course, it had a lot more details, but... the
thing is no one remembers all that stuff anyways. Most you remember is
stuff like the Kreb's cycle produces ATP in the mitochondria... and Taubes
manages to cover all the bits one actually remembers. It might be
somewhat tough reading for some laymen, but he does manage to make the
basic metabolism of carbohydrate and fat pretty accessible for
non-chemists (he has much less on the metabolism of protein though).

He doesn't just discuss insulin and I'm not sure why people come away from
the book thinking that. He makes a big deal out of the importance of the
hypothalamus-pituitary axis in regulating both appetite and fat storage.
He discusses the importance of the sex hormones with regards to fat
storage also. He provides a summary of the hormones known to regulate fat
storage as of 1965 includes: epinephrine, norepinephrine, ACTH, glucagon,
TSH, melanocyte-stimulating hormone, vasopressin and growth hormone as
well as insulin. That being said, he doesn't address adrenal hormones
beyond epinephrine and norepinephrine hardly at all. He discusses some
experiments with rats with their adrenals surgically removed, but it's
basically about aldosterone (though he doesn't refer to the hormone by
name). Not a word about cortisol anywhere.

I'm not sure why people come away from the book thinking he says not to
exercise. Rather, he points out that fat storage is related to calories
in and calories out pretty directly. He simply points out there's some
confusion about what is the cause and what is the effect - which variables
are independent in that equation. He also points out that exercise is
not the entirety of "calories out" as basal metabolism is also effected.
He seems to believe that excess fat storage causes a reduction in both
basal metabolism and the natural desire to exercise - lean people burn
calories at a higher rate even when sleeping and naturally enjoy moving
more. But nowhere does he say that exercise is not good.

I think this is the best and most thorough low-carb book I've ever read.
Lots of information I've run across in many different places is all
organized here, as well as a few studies I wasn't familair with. Beats
the heck out of Protein Power, which is no longer my favorite low-carb
book now that GCBC is available. In between finishing reading it and
returning it to the library, I ordered a copy from Amazon as it's a good
reference book that should sit on my desk next to Bernstein and my book of
food counts.

--
http://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/

"RRzVRR" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Jackie Patti said:

Quoted message said:

Did you ever read Lyle McDonald's book, "The Ketogenic
Diet - A Complete Guide for the Dieter and Practitioner"?

No. I've read a lot of Lyle's stuff, mostly articles, the forums on his
web site and one e-book, but not that book.

In general, my impression is that Lyle is more into recent research and
quite a bit more technical than Taubes is. I've also not seen Lyle
address some of the specific stuff Tubes did - or not from the same
viewpoint anyway.

There's a lot in the book that most LC eaters may never need to know (pre
bodybuilding contest plans which come up late in the book), but it does a
very good job at explaining the basics of fuel systems and LC.

It seems a bit old research wise, though. I'd like to see a new edition.

Roger Zoul said:

"RRzVRR" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Jackie Patti said:

> Did you ever read Lyle McDonald's book, "The Ketogenic
> Diet - A Complete Guide for the Dieter and Practitioner"?
No. I've read a lot of Lyle's stuff, mostly articles, the forums on his
web site and one e-book, but not that book.

In general, my impression is that Lyle is more into recent research and
quite a bit more technical than Taubes is. I've also not seen Lyle
address some of the specific stuff Tubes did - or not from the same
viewpoint anyway.

There's a lot in the book that most LC eaters may never need to know (pre
bodybuilding contest plans which come up late in the book), but it does a
very good job at explaining the basics of fuel systems and LC.

It seems a bit old research wise, though. I'd like to see a new edition.

I would as well.

--
Rudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond.

"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!"
-Emiliano Zapata

Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at:
http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm