MORE GOOD NEWS!

datakoll aka gene daniels said:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/06/nyregion/06mbrfs-biker.html?ref=todayspaper

Bicycle lanes kill.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

http://www.star-telegram.com/arlington_news/story/344862.html

datakoll aka gene daniels said:

http://www.star-telegram.com/arlington_news/story/344862.html

Serve and protect, indeed!

This points out the need for police misconduct to be reviewed by a board
of citizens, not by their peers who cover each others backs, no matter what.

The victim being a Vietnamese immigrant may also have much to do with
there being no disciplinary action or charges filed.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

On Dec 6, 7:57 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

datakoll aka gene daniels said:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/06/nyregion/06mbrfs-biker.html?ref=tod...

Bicycle lanes kill.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

"The police issued two summonses to the car's driver, Benjamin Siano,
52, of Staten Island, for parking at a fire hydrant and for blocking a
bicycle lane. They also issued a summons to his passenger, Augustus
Browne, 31, of Staten Island, for opening a door unsafely into
traffic, the police said."

Ugh.

/s

Tom Sherman said:

datakoll aka gene daniels said:

http://www.star-telegram.com/arlington_news/story/344862.html

Serve and protect, indeed!

This points out the need for police misconduct to be reviewed by a board
of citizens, not by their peers who cover each others backs, no matter what.

The victim being a Vietnamese immigrant may also have much to do with
there being no disciplinary action or charges filed.

The fact that it's Arlington says enough to me. I have a couple of
friends who are glad to have moved out of there in the past 10 years;
the place is full of control freaks who despise anything that doesn't
meet their narrow definition of Right And Proper. The typical
Arlington attitude is that anyone who can't afford to be driving a
shiny new (not bottom-of-the-line) car has no business on their roads.
While DWB is still "probable cause" for getting stopped by a cop
across most of the South, in Arligton it expands to DAB (Driving A
Beater), and to them, everything I've got is a beater.

--
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On Dec 11, 2:35 am, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

datakoll aka gene daniels said:

http://www.star-telegram.com/arlington_news/story/344862.html

Serve and protect, indeed!

This points out the need for police misconduct to be reviewed by a board
of citizens, not by their peers who cover each others backs, no matter what.

The victim being a Vietnamese immigrant may also have much to do with
there being no disciplinary action or charges filed.

Read it again. The DA is not seeking an indictment -- which is the
case in most traffic accidents. Internal affairs is investigating the
accident. Many departments do have citizen review boards. More
importantly, they have risk management departments that don't like
paying wrongful death awards. So, this officer -- who apparently
can't drive straight -- will probably get a walking beat, unless his
union intervenes and runs interference (the usual case). Blame it on
the union.

BTW, what does being Vietnamese have to do with it? The officer also
hit a light post. Don't tell me, it was a black light post! It's a
huge conspiracy against things of color! -- Jay Beattie.

Any accident like this is a sad situation and I feel for the family
suffering the loss. However, without knowing all the facts I would
hesitate to be one-sidedly critical of the driver. The accident
occurred at 11:16 PM. The article referenced stated: "Police said that
the area was not well-lit and that Ly [the cyclist] was not wearing a
helmet or reflective gear. Ly was knocked off his bicycle, according to
a police report. He died from head injuries." Another article I found
said: "Yeats [the officer] did not see the bicyclist who did not have
any reflective gear, or visible lights, Arlington police said in a news
release." And another said: "Preliminary reports indicate that Ly was
wearing dark clothing at the time of the accident, did not have a helmet
and did not have any reflective lights or signals."

catzz66 said:

Any accident like this is a sad situation and I feel for the family
suffering the loss. However, without knowing all the facts I would
hesitate to be one-sidedly critical of the driver. The accident
occurred at 11:16 PM. The article referenced stated: "Police said
that the area was not well-lit and that Ly [the cyclist] was not
wearing a helmet or reflective gear. Ly was knocked off his bicycle,
according to a police report. He died from head injuries." Another
article I found said: "Yeats [the officer] did not see the bicyclist
who did not have any reflective gear, or visible lights, Arlington
police said in a news release." And another said: "Preliminary
reports indicate that Ly was wearing dark clothing at the time of the
accident, did not have a helmet and did not have any reflective
lights or signals."

Driving home at 9:30 last night, I turned left across a fairly busy (divided
4-lane) road. Something caught my eye as I crossed, and looking in my
rearview mirror I saw a dark figure pedaling thru the intersection behind
me. Dark clothes, no lights, not even a reflector (at least in front).

I'd like to think my headlights would have provided enough warning should
the timing have been different by, what, 10 seconds (?); however, who knows?

Some people are just stupid and/or have a death wish.

Bill S.

Jay Beattie said:

On Dec 11, 2:35 am, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

datakoll aka gene daniels said:

http://www.star-telegram.com/arlington_news/story/344862.html

Serve and protect, indeed!

This points out the need for police misconduct to be reviewed by a board
of citizens, not by their peers who cover each others backs, no matter what.

The victim being a Vietnamese immigrant may also have much to do with
there being no disciplinary action or charges filed.

Read it again. The DA is not seeking an indictment -- which is the
case in most traffic accidents. Internal affairs is investigating the
accident. Many departments do have citizen review boards. More
importantly, they have risk management departments that don't like
paying wrongful death awards. So, this officer -- who apparently
can't drive straight -- will probably get a walking beat, unless his
union intervenes and runs interference (the usual case). Blame it on
the union.

Do not expect us to believe that the police do not protect their own -
that is just typical group behavior. Overzealous (or even fairly
zealous) internal affairs investigators only exist in TV land.

Quoted message said:

BTW, what does being Vietnamese have to do with it? The officer also
hit a light post. Don't tell me, it was a black light post! It's a
huge conspiracy against things of color! -- Jay Beattie.

Oh come on, everyone knows that the system values people by wealth, skin
color and national origin. The victim fails on all three counts.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:25:45 -0800, "Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> may

have said:

Driving home at 9:30 last night, I turned left across a fairly busy (divided
4-lane) road. Something caught my eye as I crossed, and looking in my
rearview mirror I saw a dark figure pedaling thru the intersection behind
me. Dark clothes, no lights, not even a reflector (at least in front).

I'd like to think my headlights would have provided enough warning should
the timing have been different by, what, 10 seconds (?); however, who knows?

Some people are just stupid and/or have a death wish.

Others find that they have two choices: Ride the bike with the lack
of safety gear that they didn't bring because they expected to be
returning in daylight, or walk it along the same route, exposed to
pretty much the same hazards; sidewalks being less than common these
days.

Not everyone has the luxury of being able to call a friend or relative
to provide pickup.

That said, I don't think there is any reason to think that there was
any dereliction on the part of the officer which can be attributed to
any characteristic of the victim. On the other hand, however, I also
think that there will be a lot less attention given to the matter at
the policy level due to the victim's identity than would be the case
if the victim were more highly placed within the societal hierarchy.
But then, almost by definition, such a person would have been unlikely
to be in the situation that obtained in this incident, riding a bike
in full darkness in an underlit area.

Bottom line: It sucks to be at the low end of the socioeconomic
scales. 'Twas ever thus.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Werehatrack said:

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:25:45 -0800, "Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> may

have said:

Driving home at 9:30 last night, I turned left across a fairly busy (divided
4-lane) road. Something caught my eye as I crossed, and looking in my
rearview mirror I saw a dark figure pedaling thru the intersection behind
me. Dark clothes, no lights, not even a reflector (at least in front).

I'd like to think my headlights would have provided enough warning should
the timing have been different by, what, 10 seconds (?); however, who knows?

Some people are just stupid and/or have a death wish.

Others find that they have two choices: Ride the bike with the lack
of safety gear that they didn't bring because they expected to be
returning in daylight, or walk it along the same route, exposed to
pretty much the same hazards; sidewalks being less than common these
days.

Not everyone has the luxury of being able to call a friend or relative
to provide pickup.

That said, I don't think there is any reason to think that there was
any dereliction on the part of the officer which can be attributed to
any characteristic of the victim. On the other hand, however, I also
think that there will be a lot less attention given to the matter at
the policy level due to the victim's identity than would be the case
if the victim were more highly placed within the societal hierarchy.
But then, almost by definition, such a person would have been unlikely
to be in the situation that obtained in this incident, riding a bike
in full darkness in an underlit area.

Bottom line: It sucks to be at the low end of the socioeconomic
scales. 'Twas ever thus.

butbutbut, God rewards the faithful with monetary wealth in this life
(at least according to the contemporary conservative USian "Christian"
church).

Doncha know these people are poor because they are stupid and lazy?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

On Dec 11, 5:51 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Jay Beattie said:

On Dec 11, 2:35 am, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>http://www.star-telegram.com/arlington_news/story/344862.html
Serve and protect, indeed!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This points out the need for police misconduct to be reviewed by a board
of citizens, not by their peers who cover each others backs, no matter what.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The victim being a Vietnamese immigrant may also have much to do with
there being no disciplinary action or charges filed.

Quoted message said:

Read it again. The DA is not seeking an indictment -- which is the
case in most traffic accidents. Internal affairs is investigating the
accident. Many departments do have citizen review boards. More
importantly, they have risk management departments that don't like
paying wrongful death awards. So, this officer -- who apparently
can't drive straight -- will probably get a walking beat, unless his
union intervenes and runs interference (the usual case). Blame it on
the union.

Do not expect us to believe that the police do not protect their own -
that is just typical group behavior. Overzealous (or even fairly
zealous) internal affairs investigators only exist in TV land.

Quoted message said:

BTW, what does being Vietnamese have to do with it? The officer also
hit a light post. Don't tell me, it was a black light post! It's a
huge conspiracy against things of color! -- Jay Beattie.

Oh come on, everyone knows that the system values people by wealth, skin
color and national origin. The victim fails on all three counts.

Yes, three counts: riding a bike at night; wearing dark clothes and
being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Do you think the cop
stopped, looked and said "oh, its just a Vietnamese man, I guess I'll
run him down." Like no one is going to notice?

I don't know where you live, but when the cops kill a person of color
around here, it immediately turns in to a race thing, and there is
twice the press than if the cops had killed some white kid with a
mullet. -- Jay Beattie.

Jay Beattie said:

On Dec 11, 5:51 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Jay Beattie said:

On Dec 11, 2:35 am, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>
wrote:
> datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
>> http://www.star-telegram.com/arlington_news/story/344862.html
> Serve and protect, indeed!
> This points out the need for police misconduct to be reviewed by a board
> of citizens, not by their peers who cover each others backs, no matter what.
> The victim being a Vietnamese immigrant may also have much to do with
> there being no disciplinary action or charges filed.
Read it again. The DA is not seeking an indictment -- which is the
case in most traffic accidents. Internal affairs is investigating the
accident. Many departments do have citizen review boards. More
importantly, they have risk management departments that don't like
paying wrongful death awards. So, this officer -- who apparently
can't drive straight -- will probably get a walking beat, unless his
union intervenes and runs interference (the usual case). Blame it on
the union.

Do not expect us to believe that the police do not protect their own -
that is just typical group behavior. Overzealous (or even fairly
zealous) internal affairs investigators only exist in TV land.

Quoted message said:

BTW, what does being Vietnamese have to do with it? The officer also
hit a light post. Don't tell me, it was a black light post! It's a
huge conspiracy against things of color! -- Jay Beattie.

Oh come on, everyone knows that the system values people by wealth, skin
color and national origin. The victim fails on all three counts.

Yes, three counts: riding a bike at night; wearing dark clothes and
being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Do you think the cop
stopped, looked and said "oh, its just a Vietnamese man, I guess I'll
run him down." Like no one is going to notice?

Not at all what I was suggesting. However, if the victim had been a
white teenager from an upper class family, would the investigation and
its results been the same?

Quoted message said:

I don't know where you live, but when the cops kill a person of color
around here, it immediately turns in to a race thing, and there is
twice the press than if the cops had killed some white kid with a
mullet. -- Jay Beattie.

Google "Frank Jude Jr.". Not to mention the "Punishers":
<http://www.policeone.com/pc_print.asp?vid=1296933>. See also:
<http://www.november.org/stayinfo/breaking07/BlueCrime.html>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

Jay Beattie said:

Yes, three counts: riding a bike at night; wearing dark clothes and
being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Do you think the cop
stopped, looked and said "oh, its just a Vietnamese man, I guess I'll
run him down." Like no one is going to notice?

I don't disagree that the victim might have helped with his own
demise, but there is this troublesome item in the report:

"Officials have not disclosed how fast Yeats was driving, though
Miller has said that Yeats is not believed to have violated any
traffic laws."

Seems to me that the police would have been very clear how fast he was
going if he was obeying the speed limit. Their silence on this point
is suspect.

In addition, since the only information we have is sourced from the
police, I would expect it to be biased. I've never seen a report from
a local police department that made an officer look anything but "not
guilty". Reports of the other sort only come from independent
investigations from folks outside the Brotherhood.

Lastly, this officer is a hazard. Quoting: "He was also involved in
accidents in July 2000, November 2001 and March 2002, according to a
proposed disciplinary action report from the 2003 accident. He was
suspended one day for the 2002 accident and received written
reprimands as a result of the two other incidents."

Noting that police departments protect their own, it seems this guy
shouldn't be driving a car. He's been suspended for one incident and
given two written reprimands for two other incidents. You don't get
that kind of action from your fellow officers unless you were clearly
doing something very wrong.

Hopefully an attorney will pick this up on contingency so the actual
circumstances can be aired in court instead of being buried by the
police in the usual manner. I say that having several friends in
several police departments and knowing all too well how police
departments work internally. It is a Brotherhood and they take their
bonds to their fellow Officers seriously. You have to be a very bad
wheel (e.g. selling drugs, continually and excessively drunk on duty,
shooting people clearly without weapons or anything that remotely
resembles a weapon, etc) to be disciplined in most departments.

still just me said:

I don't disagree that the victim might have helped with his own
demise, but there is this troublesome item in the report:

"Officials have not disclosed how fast Yeats was driving, though
Miller has said that Yeats is not believed to have violated any
traffic laws."

Seems to me that the police would have been very clear how fast he was
going if he was obeying the speed limit. Their silence on this point
is suspect.

I am not taking sides here, but I would not necessarily place too much
emphasis on what has or has not been disclosed to the press given that
the matter has apparently not yet been litigated.

catzz66 said:

I am not taking sides here, but I would not necessarily place too much
emphasis on what has or has not been disclosed to the press given that
the matter has apparently not yet been litigated.

If the Officer was obeying the speed limit (not likely :-) then there
would be no reason, litigation pending or otherwise, to not disclose
it. In most states, any information gathered about the actions of the
police officer executing his duty is public anyway - they have no
right to withhold it to gain some legal advantage... and the defense
would be entitled to see it even if it wasn't public. There's little
advantage to concealing it except to hide negative information from
public discourse.

still just me said:

catzz66 said:

I am not taking sides here, but I would not necessarily place too much
emphasis on what has or has not been disclosed to the press given that
the matter has apparently not yet been litigated.

If the Officer was obeying the speed limit (not likely :-) then there
would be no reason, litigation pending or otherwise, to not disclose
it. In most states, any information gathered about the actions of the
police officer executing his duty is public anyway - they have no
right to withhold it to gain some legal advantage... and the defense
would be entitled to see it even if it wasn't public. There's little
advantage to concealing it except to hide negative information from
public discourse.

If you were involved in a situation like this, you would have no
obligation to provide details to a reporter if he were to call you.
That's all I am saying, not whether facts have to be disclosed in court.

Werehatrack said:

Others find that they have two choices: Ride the bike with the lack
of safety gear that they didn't bring because they expected to be
returning in daylight, or walk it along the same route, exposed to
pretty much the same hazards; sidewalks being less than common these
days.

Not everyone has the luxury of being able to call a friend or relative
to provide pickup.

That said, I don't think there is any reason to think that there was
any dereliction on the part of the officer which can be attributed to
any characteristic of the victim. On the other hand, however, I also
think that there will be a lot less attention given to the matter at
the policy level due to the victim's identity than would be the case
if the victim were more highly placed within the societal hierarchy.
But then, almost by definition, such a person would have been unlikely
to be in the situation that obtained in this incident, riding a bike
in full darkness in an underlit area.

Bottom line: It sucks to be at the low end of the socioeconomic
scales. 'Twas ever thus.

Yeah, but like Bill, I've been surprised by bicycle riders who I
sometimes encounter in the very early AM. I've several times passed a
guy on a bicycle who I didn't see in my motorcycle's headlight. I can't
say I would have hit the guy if he were in front of me, but I may have.

Keep in mind that living on two wheels 99% of the time, I'm more aware
of bicyclists and motorcyclists than most. Yet I have had a few close
ones with these guys wearing dark clothes and no reflectors.

-paul

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 19:57:27 -0700, Paul Cassel

may have said:

... like Bill, I've been surprised by bicycle riders who I
sometimes encounter in the very early AM. I've several times passed a
guy on a bicycle who I didn't see in my motorcycle's headlight. I can't
say I would have hit the guy if he were in front of me, but I may have.

I've seen more than a few myself, though more often in the evening
than the morning. It may well be that the riders in question simply
aren't giving any thought to their invisibility, or that they are so
far down the economic scale that buying lights and reflective clothing
isn't on their personal budget. Or they just don't care; people still
smoke, after all.

Quoted message said:

Keep in mind that living on two wheels 99% of the time, I'm more aware
of bicyclists and motorcyclists than most. Yet I have had a few close
ones with these guys wearing dark clothes and no reflectors.

As have I, though not frequently. Perhaps the most flagrant was one
riding along wearing black on a night when the weather was cold with
intermittent drizzle, on a dark-colored bike with neither lights nor
reflectors, on a narrow four-lane divided road with high curbs at
sides and median, in an area where people tend to be driving large and
unwieldy vehicles with side mirrors that overhang rather more than
usual. Oh, and I should mention that the road in question has a bike
lane along the right, which he was just to the left of, probably
because the gutter along there tends to be full of puddles.

At least he wasn't doing it at 2:10AM when the last of the night's
drunks have just been chucked out onto the street as the bars close.
(It is not a good idea to be out and about at that time, particularly
on Saturday.)

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.