More fondon't

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 23:57:10 -0800, serene <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

My sweetie got me a fondue for our anniversary

Fondue *pot*.

serene

serene said:

My sweetie got me a fondue for our anniversary (our third, this past
Thursday), and I managed another failed batch of fondue. I will post
the recipe later and y'all can tell me what I did wrong.

serene,

Congrats on the anniversary! But I have no idea what went wrong with
your fondue. Hormel foods say this (not that I'm sure Hormel is the
ultimate fondue authority, but...)

(from the Hormel web site)

A common problem with cheese fondue is a clumping or curdling of the
cheese caused by proteins in the melted cheese being kept at an
excessively high temperature. Several solutions for this problem can be
suggested. Adding a tablespoon of cornstarch mixed with 2 teaspoons of
water or wine to the melted cheese will help keep the proteins from
combining together. Another solution that can be tried is to add lemon
juice, lime juice or wine to the melted cheese as a means to disperse
the cheese proteins.

Karen MacInerney
Kitchen experimenter, family chauffeur, and culinary mystery author
www.karenmacinerney.com

Karen MacInerney said:

(from the Hormel web site)

A common problem with cheese fondue is a clumping or curdling of the
cheese caused by proteins in the melted cheese being kept at an
excessively high temperature. Several solutions for this problem can be
suggested. Adding a tablespoon of cornstarch mixed with 2 teaspoons of
water or wine to the melted cheese will help keep the proteins from
combining together. Another solution that can be tried is to add lemon
juice, lime juice or wine to the melted cheese as a means to disperse
the cheese proteins.

Thank you! We're gonna keep trying (when we have the money for cheese,
of course).

serene

serene said:

Karen MacInerney said:

(from the Hormel web site)

A common problem with cheese fondue is a clumping or curdling of the
cheese caused by proteins in the melted cheese being kept at an
excessively high temperature. Several solutions for this problem can be
suggested. Adding a tablespoon of cornstarch mixed with 2 teaspoons of
water or wine to the melted cheese will help keep the proteins from
combining together. Another solution that can be tried is to add lemon
juice, lime juice or wine to the melted cheese as a means to disperse
the cheese proteins.

Thank you! We're gonna keep trying (when we have the money for cheese,
of course).

Describe the problem(s) and I'm sure you'll get almost as many answers
as how to season a cast iron skillet or if chili should have beans in
it. Maybe more...

Pastorio

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 14:11:52 -0500, "Bob (this one)" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

serene said:

Karen MacInerney said:

(from the Hormel web site)

A common problem with cheese fondue is a clumping or curdling of the
cheese caused by proteins in the melted cheese being kept at an
excessively high temperature. Several solutions for this problem can be
suggested. Adding a tablespoon of cornstarch mixed with 2 teaspoons of
water or wine to the melted cheese will help keep the proteins from
combining together. Another solution that can be tried is to add lemon
juice, lime juice or wine to the melted cheese as a means to disperse
the cheese proteins.

Thank you! We're gonna keep trying (when we have the money for cheese,
of course).

Describe the problem(s) and I'm sure you'll get almost as many answers
as how to season a cast iron skillet or if chili should have beans in
it. Maybe more...

The first time, we made the garlic fondue recipe that was posted here,
leaving out the flour on Nathalie's recommendation, and the cheese
ended up in a big lump, no matter how much more wine we tried to add.
It tasted delicious, but it never got smooth.

The latest batch was weirder. The recipe had cornstarch in it. 2 1/4
cups dry white wine brought to a solid simmer, then throw in a handful
of cheese (mix of grated emmanthaler and gruyere), and whisk (or stir
with a wooden spoon -- non-stick fondue pot) until the cheese is
completely melted and smooth before adding any more cheese.

We stirred. And stirred. And stirred. The cheese never melted. The
wine eventually boiled away, and what was left was little pieces of
shredded cheese. Smaller pieces than we'd thrown in there, but
definitely not melted or incorporated into the liquid. We cut our
losses and ate the cheese on toasts for dinner, but we're baffled.

Ideas?

serene

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 11:23:22 -0800, serene <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 14:11:52 -0500, "Bob (this one)" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Describe the problem(s) and I'm sure you'll get almost as many answers
as how to season a cast iron skillet or if chili should have beans in
it. Maybe more...

The first time, we made the garlic fondue recipe that was posted here,
leaving out the flour on Nathalie's recommendation, and the cheese
ended up in a big lump, no matter how much more wine we tried to add.
It tasted delicious, but it never got smooth.

The latest batch was weirder. The recipe had cornstarch in it. 2 1/4
cups dry white wine brought to a solid simmer, then throw in a handful
of cheese (mix of grated emmanthaler and gruyere), and whisk (or stir
with a wooden spoon -- non-stick fondue pot) until the cheese is
completely melted and smooth before adding any more cheese.

We stirred. And stirred. And stirred. The cheese never melted. The
wine eventually boiled away, and what was left was little pieces of
shredded cheese. Smaller pieces than we'd thrown in there, but
definitely not melted or incorporated into the liquid. We cut our
losses and ate the cheese on toasts for dinner, but we're baffled.

Ideas?

When I make a traditional fondue, I shred all the cheese first, about
2:1 Emmenthaler to Gruyere. Then I rub the pot with a piece of crushed
garlic, Add the wine and bring to a a very light simmer. Then I add
the shredded Gruyere first and _slowly_, about a tablespoon or two at
a time, and stir until it the cheese is _completely_ melted into the
wine. (Gruyere is a better melting, less stringy cheese than
Emmenthaler or other forms of Swiss and acts as a smooth textural base
for the Emmenthaler). Then proceed the same way adding the Emmenthaler
until it is completely melted. Finish with a splash of Kirsch and/or
scraping of nutmeg.

It takes a while, up to 20 -30 minutes of stirring, but fondue is not
a fast food. Patience is a cultural characteristic of the Swiss.

J. Eric Durbin said:

When I make a traditional fondue, I shred all the cheese first, about
2:1 Emmenthaler to Gruyere. Then I rub the pot with a piece of crushed
garlic, Add the wine and bring to a a very light simmer. Then I add
the shredded Gruyere first and _slowly_, about a tablespoon or two at
a time, and stir until it the cheese is _completely_ melted into the
wine. (Gruyere is a better melting, less stringy cheese than
Emmenthaler or other forms of Swiss and acts as a smooth textural base
for the Emmenthaler). Then proceed the same way adding the Emmenthaler
until it is completely melted. Finish with a splash of Kirsch and/or
scraping of nutmeg.

It takes a while, up to 20 -30 minutes of stirring, but fondue is not
a fast food. Patience is a cultural characteristic of the Swiss.

Thank you! We'll try this. Do you use cornstarch or flour?

serene

J. Eric Durbin said:

When I make a traditional fondue, I shred all the cheese first, about
2:1 Emmenthaler to Gruyere. Then I rub the pot with a piece of crushed
garlic, Add the wine and bring to a a very light simmer. Then I add
the shredded Gruyere first and _slowly_, about a tablespoon or two at
a time, and stir until it the cheese is _completely_ melted into the
wine. (Gruyere is a better melting, less stringy cheese than
Emmenthaler or other forms of Swiss and acts as a smooth textural base
for the Emmenthaler). Then proceed the same way adding the Emmenthaler
until it is completely melted. Finish with a splash of Kirsch and/or
scraping of nutmeg.

It takes a while, up to 20 -30 minutes of stirring, but fondue is not
a fast food. Patience is a cultural characteristic of the Swiss.

OK.....but when I eat fondue at the Melting Pot, it takes them between
2 and 3 minutes to whisk all the ingredients together, at your table,
for the traditionla cheese fondue. It comes out as the seperate
ingredients, they heat the liquids, add the garlic, then whisk in the
cheeses. no 20 to 30 minutes there. So how do they accomplish it so
quickly, with only 2 or 3 minutes of stirring as compared to 20 or 30?

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 13:21:21 -0800, serene <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

J. Eric Durbin said:

When I make a traditional fondue, I shred all the cheese first, about
2:1 Emmenthaler to Gruyere. Then I rub the pot with a piece of crushed
garlic, Add the wine and bring to a a very light simmer. Then I add
the shredded Gruyere first and _slowly_, about a tablespoon or two at
a time, and stir until it the cheese is _completely_ melted into the
wine. (Gruyere is a better melting, less stringy cheese than
Emmenthaler or other forms of Swiss and acts as a smooth textural base
for the Emmenthaler). Then proceed the same way adding the Emmenthaler
until it is completely melted. Finish with a splash of Kirsch and/or
scraping of nutmeg.

It takes a while, up to 20 -30 minutes of stirring, but fondue is not
a fast food. Patience is a cultural characteristic of the Swiss.

Thank you! We'll try this. Do you use cornstarch or flour?

Never found it necessary myself. It seems to me flour would impart an
unacceptable taste though. I have seen a slurry of white wine and corn
starch or arrowroot added after all the cheese has been melted in
which seems to give the fondue a more "flowing" less stringy
consistancy that many might prefer.

No law against it.

Jude said:

J. Eric Durbin wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It takes a while, up to 20 -30 minutes of stirring, but fondue is not
a fast food. Patience is a cultural characteristic of the Swiss.

OK.....but when I eat fondue at the Melting Pot, it takes them between
2 and 3 minutes to whisk all the ingredients together, at your table,
for the traditionla cheese fondue. It comes out as the seperate
ingredients, they heat the liquids, add the garlic, then whisk in the
cheeses. no 20 to 30 minutes there. So how do they accomplish it so
quickly, with only 2 or 3 minutes of stirring as compared to 20 or 30?

Ya got me. Perhaps they use some specially processed "cheese food" or
restaurant fondue preparation? I could see it if they were using
melting cheeses like Raclette and Fontina which melt very nicely and
quickly but aren't very traditional like Emmenthaler and Gruyere.

BTW: Don't be a cheapskate on the cheese. A store brand Swiss is
likely to be stringy and can separate into oils and solids instead of
melting evenly. Nasty, not even good for spreading on baguettes.

J. Eric Durbin said:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 13:21:21 -0800, serene <[email hidden]>
wrote:

[fondue]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Thank you! We'll try this. Do you use cornstarch or flour?

Never found it necessary myself. It seems to me flour would impart an
unacceptable taste though. I have seen a slurry of white wine and corn
starch or arrowroot added after all the cheese has been melted in
which seems to give the fondue a more "flowing" less stringy
consistancy that many might prefer.

No law against it.

Thanks.

serene

J. Eric Durbin said:

Jude said:

J. Eric Durbin wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It takes a while, up to 20 -30 minutes of stirring, but fondue is not
a fast food. Patience is a cultural characteristic of the Swiss.

OK.....but when I eat fondue at the Melting Pot, it takes them between
2 and 3 minutes to whisk all the ingredients together, at your table,
for the traditionla cheese fondue. It comes out as the seperate
ingredients, they heat the liquids, add the garlic, then whisk in the
cheeses. no 20 to 30 minutes there. So how do they accomplish it so
quickly, with only 2 or 3 minutes of stirring as compared to 20 or 30?

Ya got me. Perhaps they use some specially processed "cheese food" or
restaurant fondue preparation? I could see it if they were using
melting cheeses like Raclette and Fontina which melt very nicely and
quickly but aren't very traditional like Emmenthaler and Gruyere.

They definitely use top-quality cheeses. Their authenic is indded
gruyere and emmenthaler. I have a friend who works in the kitchen who
has confirmed for me the quality of their ingredients before. They make
their cheese fondue tableside, ready to serve in under 5 minutes.

Jude said:

J. Eric Durbin wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ya got me. Perhaps they use some specially processed "cheese food" or
restaurant fondue preparation? I could see it if they were using
melting cheeses like Raclette and Fontina which melt very nicely and
quickly but aren't very traditional like Emmenthaler and Gruyere.

They definitely use top-quality cheeses. Their authenic is indded
gruyere and emmenthaler. I have a friend who works in the kitchen who
has confirmed for me the quality of their ingredients before. They make
their cheese fondue tableside, ready to serve in under 5 minutes.

Well then, I'll admit that I don't know what magik they use for their
almost instant cheese fondue.

Perhaps you could ask your friend who works in the Melting Pot's
kitchen how they do a cheese fondue in under 5 minutes and report back
to us -- that is, if they are willing to part with the secret. I
wouldn't mind speeding up the process.

"serene" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 14:11:52 -0500, "Bob (this one)" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

serene said:

On 15 Jan 2006 08:17:38 -0800, "Karen MacInerney"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

>(from the Hormel web site)
>
>A common problem with cheese fondue is a clumping or curdling of the
>cheese caused by proteins in the melted cheese being kept at an
>excessively high temperature. Several solutions for this problem can be
>suggested. Adding a tablespoon of cornstarch mixed with 2 teaspoons of
>water or wine to the melted cheese will help keep the proteins from
>combining together. Another solution that can be tried is to add lemon
>juice, lime juice or wine to the melted cheese as a means to disperse
>the cheese proteins.

Thank you! We're gonna keep trying (when we have the money for cheese,
of course).

Describe the problem(s) and I'm sure you'll get almost as many answers
as how to season a cast iron skillet or if chili should have beans in
it. Maybe more...

The first time, we made the garlic fondue recipe that was posted here,
leaving out the flour on Nathalie's recommendation, and the cheese
ended up in a big lump, no matter how much more wine we tried to add.
It tasted delicious, but it never got smooth.

The latest batch was weirder. The recipe had cornstarch in it. 2 1/4
cups dry white wine brought to a solid simmer, then throw in a handful
of cheese (mix of grated emmanthaler and gruyere), and whisk (or stir
with a wooden spoon -- non-stick fondue pot) until the cheese is
completely melted and smooth before adding any more cheese.

We stirred. And stirred. And stirred. The cheese never melted. The
wine eventually boiled away, and what was left was little pieces of
shredded cheese. Smaller pieces than we'd thrown in there, but
definitely not melted or incorporated into the liquid. We cut our
losses and ate the cheese on toasts for dinner, but we're baffled.

Ideas?

I've had this happen due to me using "cheap" cheese. The price wasn't
cheap, but the cheese certainly was. This last time (X-mas) I made fondue,
my hubby went to a cheese store and we PAID for the cheese. Didn't lump at
all. What we did was: We coated our electric non-stick West Bend pot with
a garlic clove, we heated the wine, cubed the cheese, coated the cheese in
cornstarch, added it SLOWLY to the mix (add a few cubes at a time after the
rest melts), when it's melted add your nutmeg and then your brandy and stir.
It worked great.

kili

kilikini said:

"serene" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We stirred. And stirred. And stirred. The cheese never melted. The
wine eventually boiled away, and what was left was little pieces of
shredded cheese. Smaller pieces than we'd thrown in there, but
definitely not melted or incorporated into the liquid. We cut our
losses and ate the cheese on toasts for dinner, but we're baffled.

Ideas?

I've had this happen due to me using "cheap" cheese. The price wasn't
cheap, but the cheese certainly was.

We bought French Emmanthaler and Gruyere for a decent, but not too
low, price from a reliable, reputable store, but I think next time,
I'll go to the Cheese Board and ask them what to use.

Quoted message said:

This last time (X-mas) I made fondue,
my hubby went to a cheese store and we PAID for the cheese. Didn't lump at
all. What we did was: We coated our electric non-stick West Bend pot with
a garlic clove, we heated the wine, cubed the cheese, coated the cheese in
cornstarch, added it SLOWLY to the mix (add a few cubes at a time after the
rest melts), when it's melted add your nutmeg and then your brandy and stir.
It worked great.

Cool. We're gonna keep trying.

serene

serene said:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 14:11:52 -0500, "Bob (this one)" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

serene said:

On 15 Jan 2006 08:17:38 -0800, "Karen MacInerney"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

>(from the Hormel web site)
>
>A common problem with cheese fondue is a clumping or curdling of the
>cheese caused by proteins in the melted cheese being kept at an
>excessively high temperature. Several solutions for this problem can be
>suggested. Adding a tablespoon of cornstarch mixed with 2 teaspoons of
>water or wine to the melted cheese will help keep the proteins from
>combining together. Another solution that can be tried is to add lemon
>juice, lime juice or wine to the melted cheese as a means to disperse
>the cheese proteins.

Thank you! We're gonna keep trying (when we have the money for cheese,
of course).

Describe the problem(s) and I'm sure you'll get almost as many answers
as how to season a cast iron skillet or if chili should have beans in
it. Maybe more...

The first time, we made the garlic fondue recipe that was posted here,
leaving out the flour on Nathalie's recommendation, and the cheese
ended up in a big lump, no matter how much more wine we tried to add.
It tasted delicious, but it never got smooth.

It's a tightrope act. You need to get the cheese hot enough to melt, but
not so hot it clumps or forms into strings. Cheese fondue needs to be
done at a reasonably low temperature and the best vessel for it is
ceramic; called a "caquelin." In a metal pot, the heat needs to be
around medium-low.

Simple process, takes 5 to 10 minutes to make it. Longer than that and
it becomes a stringy mass.

1 pound Emmenthaler and/or gruyere
1 tablespoon corn starch
1 clove garlic
1 1/3 cups white wine
1 teaspoon lemon juice
2 tablespoons kirsch (optional)
a few gratings or nutmeg (optional)

Grate the cheese and toss it with the cornstarch. Rub all over the
inside of the crock with the garlic clove. Pour in the wine and bring to
a low simmer. Gradually add the cheese, stirring (it should take about a
minute of slow addition to get it all in). Stir to melt the cheese
evenly and bring to a light simmer so the starch will thicken. Reduce
heat to low and stir in lemon juice. Add optional ingredients and serve.
The fondue should be stirred periodically while dining to keep the
ingredients mixed and reduce burning on the bottom.

This is one version that I know works. It can be made with other cheeses
and other liquids. Here's one I tried in England and liked.

English Beer Cheese Fondue
12 ounces Chester cheese (can substitute cheddar)
6 ounces Emmenthaler
1 tablespoon corn starch
1 1/2 cups dark ale
1 teaspoon lemon juice
one ounce gin
1 teaspoon mustard powder
1 teaspoon Worcestershire sauce
Tabasco sauce to taste

Same essential technique as above. Grate and toss cheeses with starch.
Pour liquids into the pot and bring to a light simmer. Stir in the
cheeses and bring to a simmer to thicken and add remaining ingredients.
We had toasted bread cubes for dipping.

Pastorio

Quoted message said:

The latest batch was weirder. The recipe had cornstarch in it. 2 1/4
cups dry white wine brought to a solid simmer, then throw in a handful
of cheese (mix of grated emmanthaler and gruyere), and whisk (or stir
with a wooden spoon -- non-stick fondue pot) until the cheese is
completely melted and smooth before adding any more cheese.

We stirred. And stirred. And stirred. The cheese never melted. The
wine eventually boiled away, and what was left was little pieces of
shredded cheese. Smaller pieces than we'd thrown in there, but
definitely not melted or incorporated into the liquid. We cut our
losses and ate the cheese on toasts for dinner, but we're baffled.

Ideas?

If the wine boiled away, it was way too hot. It should be a light simmer
- not bubbling - and the cheeses with starch added gradually. The fact
of the cheese not melting meant that the proteins denatured very quickly
- too quickly to melt. Cheeses of all quality levels will melt if
properly handled. If you're heating on the stove, the heat is way too high.

Pastorio

"J. Eric Durbin" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

It takes a while, up to 20 -30 minutes of stirring, but fondue is not
a fast food. Patience is a cultural characteristic of the Swiss.

Hells - not much else to do when stuck up a mountain in an alpine cabin
except be patient.

',;~}~

Shaun aRe

Bob (this one) wrote:

\> English Beer Cheese Fondue (recipe snipped)

This sounds fabulous. I'm cutting and printing and eating soon....

Thanks!

Karen MacInerney
Kitchen experimenter, family chauffeur, and culinary mystery author
www.karenmacinerney.com