Moped FAQ...

Gas is $6-7 bucks in Europe now and not really more here than it was in
'81 when adjusted for inflation. ;-)

Mopeds are extremely rare new in the US, and the old ones put out a
disgusting amount of pollution as they're two stroke. Fun for the
hobbyist, but dirtier than a Hummer by far in many categories.

Most, if not all new scooters, including Vespas, in the US are four
stroke. They're a better choice.

Even better, in my opinion, are small motorcycles. Much better handling
on fast yankee roads. Unfortunately, the only one that's sold in the
States I could recommend is the Ninja 250. Despite the plastic, you sit
upright like on a Triumph. 70mpg, cheap used, and a hoot to drive.

Personally, I just use the bike for local stuff, and the car for big
shopping. Just think before you drive, consolidate your trips, drive
conservatively, tune your car, etc, and you should be fine.

There is some kind of turning point that's happened though, my usually
ignored, if pretty slick black city bike, now gets comments from the
Nascar set--they think it's pretty neat and don't ask me if I'm riding
due to a DUI anymore. :-P

"Brian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gas prices continue their climb out of reach of most low-income

people's

Quoted message said:

disposable income...and discussions about "Mopeds" and "Motor

Scooters" and

Quoted message said:

"Motorized Bicycles" crop up here and there...does this group need

a "Moped

Quoted message said:

FAQ"?

I'll volunteer, if no-one else has any info 😉

Brian.

I'm not an expert on mopeds, but I do have some memories of the past.
I'm old enough to remember the great European moped debate of 1952:
if mopeds were a kind of bicycle, should they be allowed on bike
paths? The Netherlands went one way (yes) and Demark the other (no).
That didn't apply here in Britain where all motorcycles were (then)
created equal, and mopeds were just another motorcycle.

However, although mopeds here weren't generally allowed on bike
paths, they were in the "new town" of Stevenage, the town that
provided much of the inspiration for early US and Dutch urban bike
path construction.

As a result of the 1952 Dutch decision, for about 20 years Dutch bike
paths became, de facto, moped paths. That's why so often Dutch paths
have surfaces suitable only for vehicles with suspensions, and why
their intersections are marginally safer* than Danish intersections.

In the 1973 oil crisis the Arabs decided to make an example of the
Netherlands, the home of Shell Oil, and cut off Dutch oil, thus
causing no-driving-on-Sundays laws, and such, for a while. The Dutch
began to think about saving fuel. The Dutch didn't really think
about bicycles; they expected a mass switch from cars to mopeds.

The Dutch assumed that, with mopeds being considerably more dangerous
than bikes, there would be a steep rise in moped accidents, so they
introduced a helmet law for moped riders, and many other European
countries followed suit.

There wasn't a rise in moped riding. It about halved, and sales of
new mopeds essentially dried up. Moped makers were in desperate
trouble. That's when the Velosolex, which used to be almost the
symbol of rural France, went out of production.

Moped salesmen and lobbyists roamed the world, looking for new
markets, and trying to get restrictive laws, like Britain's, relaxed.
Their argument was that mopeds were a sort of bicycle, not a sort of
motorcycle.

I was living in Washington DC at the time, and, because I was from
Europe, bureaucrats, suddenly compelled to think about mopeds, tended
to ask my opinion about them. My opinion was, and is, that they
seemed to combine all the disadvantages of bikes and motor vehicles
but, because they filled in the gap between bikes and motor vehicles,
they emphasized that bikes, too, were vehicles, and so were a good
thing.

-------------------

* marginally safer Dutch intersections may be, but the Dutch have
long worried about the moped accident rate. In about the year 2000
there was a pilot project in four districts allowing mopeds on roads
instead of bike paths. The moped accident rate dropped by two
thirds, so now this has been made the general rule in towns. No word
yet of a similar experiment with bikes.

Jeremy Parker

"Brian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gas prices continue their climb out of reach of most low-income

people's

Quoted message said:

disposable income...and discussions about "Mopeds" and "Motor

Scooters" and

Quoted message said:

"Motorized Bicycles" crop up here and there...does this group need

a "Moped

Quoted message said:

FAQ"?

I'll volunteer, if no-one else has any info 😉

Brian.

I'm not an expert on mopeds, but I do have some memories of the past.
I'm old enough to remember the great European moped debate of 1952:
if mopeds were a kind of bicycle, should they be allowed on bike
paths? The Netherlands went one way (yes) and Demark the other (no).
That didn't apply here in Britain where all motorcycles were (then)
created equal, and mopeds were just another motorcycle.

However, although mopeds here weren't generally allowed on bike
paths, they were in the "new town" of Stevenage, the town that
provided much of the inspiration for early US and Dutch urban bike
path construction.

As a result of the 1952 Dutch decision, for about 20 years Dutch bike
paths became, de facto, moped paths. That's why so often Dutch paths
have surfaces suitable only for vehicles with suspensions, and why
their intersections are marginally safer* than Danish intersections.

In the 1973 oil crisis the Arabs decided to make an example of the
Netherlands, the home of Shell Oil, and cut off Dutch oil, thus
causing no-driving-on-Sundays laws, and such, for a while. The Dutch
began to think about saving fuel. The Dutch didn't really think
about bicycles; they expected a mass switch from cars to mopeds.

The Dutch assumed that, with mopeds being considerably more dangerous
than bikes, there would be a steep rise in moped accidents, so they
introduced a helmet law for moped riders, and many other European
countries followed suit.

There wasn't a rise in moped riding. It about halved, and sales of
new mopeds essentially dried up. Moped makers were in desperate
trouble. That's when the Velosolex, which used to be almost the
symbol of rural France, went out of production.

Moped salesmen and lobbyists roamed the world, looking for new
markets, and trying to get restrictive laws, like Britain's, relaxed.
Their argument was that mopeds were a sort of bicycle, not a sort of
motorcycle.

I was living in Washington DC at the time, and, because I was from
Europe, bureaucrats, suddenly compelled to think about mopeds, tended
to ask my opinion about them. My opinion was, and is, that they
seemed to combine all the disadvantages of bikes and motor vehicles
but, because they filled in the gap between bikes and motor vehicles,
they emphasized that bikes, too, were vehicles, and so were a good
thing.

-------------------

* marginally safer Dutch intersections may be, but the Dutch have
long worried about the moped accident rate. In about the year 2000
there was a pilot project in four districts allowing mopeds on roads
instead of bike paths. The moped accident rate dropped by two
thirds, so now this has been made the general rule in towns. No word
yet of a similar experiment with bikes.

Jeremy Parker

Brian said:

Gas prices continue their climb out of reach of most low-income people's
disposable income...and discussions about "Mopeds" and "Motor Scooters" and
"Motorized Bicycles" crop up here and there...does this group need a "Moped
FAQ"?

I'll volunteer, if no-one else has any info 😉

Brian.

It may very well need an FAQ, but then again how many actually read them?

Ken
--
New cycling jersey: $49
new cycling shorts: $39
Not being a slave to the petrol pump: priceless.

landotter said:

Gas is $6-7 bucks in Europe now and not really more here than it was in
'81 when adjusted for inflation. ;-)

Mopeds are extremely rare new in the US, and the old ones put out a
disgusting amount of pollution as they're two stroke. Fun for the
hobbyist, but dirtier than a Hummer by far in many categories.

Most, if not all new scooters, including Vespas, in the US are four
stroke. They're a better choice.

Even better, in my opinion, are small motorcycles. Much better handling
on fast yankee roads. Unfortunately, the only one that's sold in the
States I could recommend is the Ninja 250. Despite the plastic, you sit
upright like on a Triumph. 70mpg, cheap used, and a hoot to drive.

Personally, I just use the bike for local stuff, and the car for big
shopping. Just think before you drive, consolidate your trips, drive
conservatively, tune your car, etc, and you should be fine.

There is some kind of turning point that's happened though, my usually
ignored, if pretty slick black city bike, now gets comments from the
Nascar set--they think it's pretty neat and don't ask me if I'm riding
due to a DUI anymore. :-P

I owned one I bought new back in the mis 90's. It got 125 mpg, but was
two stroke, you had to mix the oil right, it was dirty, prone to punture
flats and heavy. But brand new it was $800.

Ken
--
New cycling jersey: $49
new cycling shorts: $39
Not being a slave to the petrol pump: priceless.

"landotter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Even better, in my opinion, are small motorcycles. Much better handling
on fast yankee roads. Unfortunately, the only one that's sold in the
States I could recommend is the Ninja 250. Despite the plastic, you sit
upright like on a Triumph. 70mpg, cheap used, and a hoot to drive.

The only problem with cycles over 50 cc in most states is you need to fight
the bureaucrats to get a license. Usually under 50 cc, if you have a valid
driver's license, you have no problem.

Charles of Schaumburg

n5hsr said:

"landotter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Even better, in my opinion, are small motorcycles. Much better handling
on fast yankee roads. Unfortunately, the only one that's sold in the
States I could recommend is the Ninja 250. Despite the plastic, you sit
upright like on a Triumph. 70mpg, cheap used, and a hoot to drive.

The only problem with cycles over 50 cc in most states is you need to fight
the bureaucrats to get a license. Usually under 50 cc, if you have a valid
driver's license, you have no problem.

Charles of Schaumburg

Are you of Schaumburg, aka, the Chicago area? The Illinois test is dirt
easy, just weave through some cones and take a test. Problem is, when I
lived in Ukrainian village with my 400cc scoot and was trying to get
the endorsement (I'd had it in another state, wonder why it didn't
transfer) I went to the DMV literally a dozen times, and each time the
tester wasn't there. Of course, when you called, they'd never answer.

50cc cycles are so miserable, I'd rather bicycle. 125cc is where you
start to have a suitable everyday city ride. 250cc and you can ride on
LSD (Lakes Shore Drive), 400cc and up gets you interstate touring.
That's my take at least. That 750cc is called "entry level" in the US
these days is presposterous.

"landotter" wrote

Quoted message said:

50cc cycles are so miserable, I'd rather bicycle. 125cc is where you
start to have a suitable everyday city ride. 250cc and you can ride on
LSD (Lakes Shore Drive), 400cc and up gets you interstate touring.
That's my take at least. That 750cc is called "entry level" in the US
these days is presposterous.

When Honda introduced the 750 cc Four (1970?) at least one of their ads
read "Face it. If this is your first bike, you're not ready for a 750". I
guess marketing won out over corporate responsibility.
--
mark

mark said:

"landotter" wrote

Quoted message said:

50cc cycles are so miserable, I'd rather bicycle. 125cc is where you
start to have a suitable everyday city ride. 250cc and you can ride on
LSD (Lakes Shore Drive), 400cc and up gets you interstate touring.
That's my take at least. That 750cc is called "entry level" in the US
these days is presposterous.

When Honda introduced the 750 cc Four (1970?) at least one of their ads
read "Face it. If this is your first bike, you're not ready for a 750". I
guess marketing won out over corporate responsibility.
--
mark

a '73 CB650 *was* my first bike as I took the advice of everybody.
Right. I'm a decent sized strong fellow over six foot, but still, it
wasn't a confidence inspiring beast to learn on. It was great, once I
got the legs and it felt weightless under my countersteering, but that
takes a while. A 250 would have been perfect to start on. 4-500cc bikes
are more than enough for urban areas, plenty faster than 95% of cars
out there, able to "squirt" you into traffic. :-P Too bad a Toyota
Corolla gets better gas mileage than a 500cc bike driven with verge.
Sub 500cc bikes have the advantage of being rediculously cheap to
insure as long as you're over 25 or so.

"landotter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

n5hsr said:

"landotter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Even better, in my opinion, are small motorcycles. Much better handling
on fast yankee roads. Unfortunately, the only one that's sold in the
States I could recommend is the Ninja 250. Despite the plastic, you sit
upright like on a Triumph. 70mpg, cheap used, and a hoot to drive.

The only problem with cycles over 50 cc in most states is you need to
fight
the bureaucrats to get a license. Usually under 50 cc, if you have a
valid
driver's license, you have no problem.

Charles of Schaumburg

Are you of Schaumburg, aka, the Chicago area? The Illinois test is dirt
easy, just weave through some cones and take a test. Problem is, when I
lived in Ukrainian village with my 400cc scoot and was trying to get
the endorsement (I'd had it in another state, wonder why it didn't
transfer) I went to the DMV literally a dozen times, and each time the
tester wasn't there. Of course, when you called, they'd never answer.

50cc cycles are so miserable, I'd rather bicycle. 125cc is where you
start to have a suitable everyday city ride. 250cc and you can ride on
LSD (Lakes Shore Drive), 400cc and up gets you interstate touring.
That's my take at least. That 750cc is called "entry level" in the US
these days is presposterous.

750 is the old Harley 45 ci. That's where that comes from.

The test may be easy, but as you've noticed, it's hard to get the test
actually taken.

Charles of Schaumburg.

"Brian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gas prices continue their climb out of reach of most low-income people's
disposable income...and discussions about "Mopeds" and "Motor Scooters"
and "Motorized Bicycles" crop up here and there...does this group need a
"Moped FAQ"?

I'll volunteer, if no-one else has any info 😉

Let's not have a moped FAQ, please. That's what the rec.motorcycles.*
hierarchy is for.

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

On Mon, 1 May 2006 23:27:30 -0700, "Brian" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Gas prices continue their climb out of reach of most low-income people's
disposable income...and discussions about "Mopeds" and "Motor Scooters" and
"Motorized Bicycles" crop up here and there...does this group need a "Moped
FAQ"?

I'll volunteer, if no-one else has any info 😉

The r.b.t moped faq, if one were maintained, should be a very terse
set of pointers to the groups where *mopeds* are supported.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

landotter said:

There is some kind of turning point that's happened though, my usually
ignored, if pretty slick black city bike, now gets comments from the
Nascar set--they think it's pretty neat and don't ask me if I'm riding
due to a DUI anymore. :-P

I've noticed a sharp upward bump in total bike traffic in my area
relative to last year, but the odd part is that it seems to be
essentially the same mix as before; the proportions of full-kit
apparent rec riders vs street-attire transport riders looks identical
to what I saw before. Of course, some of those jersey-and-shorts
roadies could be transport cyclists in sport drag; without asking
them, I can't tell. One thing's definite, though; the bike traffic
level is up.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

I'd like to participate in the preparation of a rec.bicycles.misc Moped
FAQ and believe that such an FAQ should be distributed to
rec.bicycles.tech also.

Doug

"Brian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gas prices continue their climb out of reach of most low-income people's
disposable income...and discussions about "Mopeds" and "Motor Scooters"
and "Motorized Bicycles" crop up here and there...does this group need a
"Moped FAQ"?

I'll volunteer, if no-one else has any info 😉

Brian.

Well a moped FAQ might be interesting, if you could get a moped here in the
USA.
As far as I can tell, what I defined as a moped (a very heavy bicycle with
semi-worthless pedals and a small gasoline engine) seem to have gone the way
of the DoDo bird.
So maybe something about where to get one, and how to get it licensed,
titled, insured and such would be interesting.
Which of these mopeds can you get parts for? How reliable are they? Do they
work?
I remember ages ago seeing some weird mopeds that weren't much better than
junk. Plus if you ever needed a part (in case even a spark plug) you were in
a heap big pile of trouble.
Now there was or is that clone of a early model Harley Davidson single
cyclinder motorcycle that was around for a while.
i wonder if they are still around anymore? I saw someone riding one once and
he had that sucker going pretty fast actually.

"Werehatrack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The r.b.t moped faq, if one were maintained, should be a very terse
set of pointers to the groups where *mopeds* are supported.

Agreed. Somewhere pointedly not in the rec.bicycles hierarchy.

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

"Earl Bollinger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Brian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gas prices continue their climb out of reach of most low-income people's
disposable income...and discussions about "Mopeds" and "Motor Scooters"
and "Motorized Bicycles" crop up here and there...does this group need a
"Moped FAQ"?

I'll volunteer, if no-one else has any info 😉

Brian.

Well a moped FAQ might be interesting, if you could get a moped here in
the USA.
As far as I can tell, what I defined as a moped (a very heavy bicycle with
semi-worthless pedals and a small gasoline engine) seem to have gone the
way of the DoDo bird.
So maybe something about where to get one, and how to get it licensed,
titled, insured and such would be interesting.
Which of these mopeds can you get parts for? How reliable are they? Do
they work?
I remember ages ago seeing some weird mopeds that weren't much better than
junk. Plus if you ever needed a part (in case even a spark plug) you were
in a heap big pile of trouble.
Now there was or is that clone of a early model Harley Davidson single
cyclinder motorcycle that was around for a while.
i wonder if they are still around anymore? I saw someone riding one once
and he had that sucker going pretty fast actually.

Speaking of do-do birds, I think K-mart used to sell them. I have a dealer
plate from one of the stores. Probably the only time in Illinois history
they had to go past 24 duplicates for a motorcycle dealer. I and O are not
used, so the series runs A to Z then AA, BB, CC, etc, then AB-AZ, BA, BC-BZ,
etc. Ours perfectly summed up the thing. It was duplicate plate BS!

Charles of Schaumburg.

Jeremy Parker said:

My opinion was, and is, that they seemed to
combine all the disadvantages of bikes and motor vehicles but, because
they filled in the gap between bikes and motor vehicles, they emphasized
that bikes, too, were vehicles, and so were a good thing.

I agree. I can't think of a trip I'd take on a moped that I
couldn't/wouldn't take on a bicycle.

I remember the moped fad of the 70s. They were everywhere in southern CA
because you could ride one at age 15 with just a learner's permit. The
fad lasted about 7 or 8 years, then they disappeared. I often wondered
where they all went!

Well, they're back, noisy and stinky as ever. With their crude 2 stroke
engines, most of them pollute more than cars!

Matt O.

Matt--

My Aprilia RS50 runs pretty clean. It uses the DITech (Direct Injection
Technology) of mixing air and fuel and injecting that mix into the
chamber for ignition. It has a very quiet exhaust system, too, 80 dBA,
and really pulls from 30-45 mph. Mine has been deregulated and bears a
license plate, etc. The way I ride, I get 96 mpg on it.

As for polluting more than cars, is there any conceivable way a 50 cc
engine can put out the same pollution as 1500 cc engine? I have heard
it's just not so, that even with the smoke, the small engine size makes
them light on environmental impact. My Aprilia has a smokeles exhaust,
but most 50s do not.

However, I do feel better about riding my Thunderbolt than the moped.
Even more "in the scene". Even cleaner and certainly healthier.

Doug