Monotubes vs Triangulation

"nogoslow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:d-
[email hidden]... [...]

Quoted message said:

My brothers son is in Iraq in the worst fighting you could
imagine in the marine corp Ed so I hope you will cut me
some slack for worry. And Tom is a cool guy too with some
good points but would like to see just bent posts on this
site to escape from the awful realties of life guy's. The
worry of this war has just got me down. And my family
worries about our Marine each day. I just can't help it
Ed. It is real up close and personal for me. Well, back to
bents and away from the war.....

Kevin, the US has had to carry a heavy burden in the world
ever since WWII. This burden has impacted us all in our
lifetimes in one way or another. I get so mad at the
Europeans for not picking up their fair share of the burden,
but I suppose it is just human nature to let the other guy
do it if you can get away with it. If the war does not
improve soon Bush is going to be in trouble as the American
people are not long suffering anymore. In a sense we are not
too different from the Europeans.

But this war has been thrust upon us and there is no
escaping it. We will either fight it overseas or we will
fight it here in the homeland. There is no more fervent
supporter of our military than me. Your nephew is doing the
work of the just and he is on the side of the angels. Let us
hope for the best. The war will have to be prosecuted with
vigor until the Islamic extremists are defeated and have
been wiped off the face of the earth. I am afraid it may
take a generation or more to accomplish this. So we had all
best cultivate the virtue of patience.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Edward Dolan wrote:

[nothing]

Finally, a post by Mr. Dolan that I can agree with
completely. 😉

I still haven't quite got the hang of how my OE newsreader
functions. It is much easier to post now than with the
Google posting, but if I go too fast I find that I am
sending without having written. Now that I am using a
newsreader I am not looking in on the Google web site as
much as I used to either, so I feel kind of disconnected. I
will have to slow down some and be more deliberate as I
cannot afford to be making mistakes in posting when I am
taking others to task for sloppiness in their posting.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Wow, you guys convinced me. I'm selling my Bacchetta and
buying a Colnago.

Your collective lack of perspective truly amazes me. Fast-
paced recumbentism is growing and will continue to do so as
word spreads, as fit baby boomers age, and as manufacturers
innovate with more aerodynamic and lighter recumbents.

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:IN-dnRB3kLc00xndRVn-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"nogoslow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:d-
[email hidden]... [...]

Quoted message said:

The only thing as a group to attract slow out of shape
riders more than recumbents is trike riders. I love both
recumbents and the trikes you design. Way cool bikes.
Fast people in the Midwest ride DF bikes. They will
never switch. When on the Aero I am so much faster that
I don't get a good workout so when I ride with my DF
buddies I ride the DF bike. The Aero speed anoys. So, I
ride the bent alone. We have a midwest fast weekly
training ride that attracts at times over 200 people on
a Saturday morning. These are the top riders in the
area. None ride bents. None ever will inspite of the
speed being demonstrated to them. There just is no
market here for fast bents. it would be easier to sell
one of your trikes to an older Gent with some disposable
income. I notice the Aero sells down south where there
seem to be a high concentration of older people with
disposable income for $4000 dollar bikes. Well aware of
what john did and it is no suprise to me. Fast bents in
Ultras have a huge advantage over DF bikes. I am
building a 1 speed no suspension moutain bike for the
trails around my house. one speed bikes are pure and
need very little maintinance on a muddy trail. They have
race catagories in WORRs series races now. Thousands of
people show up at Mt. bike events and few show up at
bent races. So the whole thing is boring.

Excellent post nogoslow and a reality check for many
others on this newsgroup. What you say about the cycling
culture takes me back 25 years when I was a part of it.
Alas, no more. All this constant emphasis on recumbents
being fast totally misses the point. If you are into speed
you will want to ride with others and perhaps race and
that means the world of uprights, not recumbents (see any
of Fab's posts to this newsgroup). Recumbents are
basically for us older gents with some disposable income.
Once you give up on speed cycling actually gets to be much
more enjoyable, but it takes maturity to appreciate it.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota (yesgoslow)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You must have some data to support this. So what are the
frame weights ?

The Rans Force5 steel frame is about a pound lighter than
the Bacchetta Strada/Corsa. Here are direct quotes from
the manufacturers themselves:

"The medium Corsa steel frame, with powdercoat, weighs 6.6
lbs . . . weighed without their seat mounting
hardware/delrin seat clamp." source: sports.groups-sports.groups-Open ↗
.yahoo.com/group/Bacchetta_Bikes/message/3170

"The standard size wheel base (Force5) frame weighs in at
5.66 lbs" source: ransbikes.comITRForce5II.htmOpen ↗

I remember Bill Cook telling me the Barcroft Dakota frame
is 4.8 pounds (I don't know if that was before or after
painting). I think the Bachetta and Volae design need
heavier material to maintain the stiffness of the rear
wheel stays.

Notice the Force5 and Barcroft Dakota are hybrid designs. A
large diameter monotube is augmented by a smaller diameter
rear triangle. This hybrid approach combines the light
weight simplicity of a monotube with the stiffness of a
triangulated rear end.

Notice that welding adds weight, manufacturing cost, and
compromises the structural continuity. The Barcroft design
uses mandrel bent tubes for both the monotube and the rear
stays (two U shaped pieces) so the number of tubes and welds
are reduced.

The Barcroft design in particular is perhaps the most
elegant on the market since the rear triangle accomodates
standard upright accessors (fenders, racks, lighting,
kickstands, trailer hitches, etc).

Enjoy!

- Peter

[email hidden] (Peter Sichel) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You must have some data to support this. So what are
the frame weights ?

The Rans Force5 steel frame is about a pound lighter
than the Bacchetta Strada/Corsa. Here are direct quotes
from the manufacturers themselves:

"The medium Corsa steel frame, with powdercoat, weighs
6.6 lbs . . . weighed without their seat mounting
hardware/delrin seat clamp." source: sports.grou-sports.grou-Open ↗
ps.yahoo.com/group/Bacchetta_Bikes/message/3170

"The standard size wheel base (Force5) frame weighs in
at 5.66 lbs" source:
ransbikes.comITRForce5II.htmOpen ↗

I remember Bill Cook telling me the Barcroft Dakota frame
is 4.8 pounds (I don't know if that was before or after
painting). I think the Bachetta and Volae design need
heavier material to maintain the stiffness of the rear
wheel stays.

Notice the Force5 and Barcroft Dakota are hybrid designs.
A large diameter monotube is augmented by a smaller
diameter rear triangle. This hybrid approach combines the
light weight simplicity of a monotube with the stiffness
of a triangulated rear end.

Notice that welding adds weight, manufacturing cost, and
compromises the structural continuity. The Barcroft design
uses mandrel bent tubes for both the monotube and the rear
stays (two U shaped pieces) so the number of tubes and
welds are reduced.

The Barcroft design in particular is perhaps the most
elegant on the market since the rear triangle accomodates
standard upright accessors (fenders, racks, lighting,
kickstands, trailer hitches, etc).

Enjoy!

- Peter

The Ti-Aero frameset bare is 3.5 lbs I believe. I know its
one of the lightest around. I do believe that weight could
be taken off the M-5 seat but would have to be designed from
the ground up. Little guys could have far less carbon and
they could be narrower for a racer to take the weight down.
The Aero is not a pure speed bike for a track but a road
bike for every day riding. I still think the seat and
mounting hardware could be lightened up a lot. I weigh 150
lbs in season and I suppose could use a much lighter seat.
But a 240 lb guy? Another area to speed up the bike would be
some carbon handle bars built with some kind of aero profile
that would also serve to hide any exposed cables. Talking
with the "B" principals I know the Strada is beefy and it
was intended to be so. I know some big guys riding Strada's
with no problems. Remember the weight winnie days of
Mountain bikes when every thing was stupid light and major
parts breaking and people getting hurt? All this stuff is in
fulx right now but I can say the 'bent market has been on a
big diet the last couple of years. The Aero being the
lightest "manufactured bike" out there I think. The seat on
the Aero is a real place for some weight savings IMHO.

"Steve Christensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>, nogoslow

says...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"> I don't get your insistence on "sponsoring riders". We
can all ride and

Quoted message said:

compare bents at our nearest dealers.

If you want a fast bike racing and competition is what
drives performance. No one else in 'bent manufacturing is
doing what Bacchetta is doing. Showing up at races and
fast events and invitationals and proving that there
bikes are fast. And sorry, what do you know about a bikes
performance? The fast guys know what works and what does
not work for speed. Now comfort and a seat for a fat ass
is another matter. I try not to confuse the two issues.
So buy a bike and ride it what ever one that is and get
that fat ass smaller. Bent riders are quite a joke IMHO
in the fitness department. Rich Pinto has done a lot to
improve 'bents image with the Aero and it is time for the
other manufacturers to step up or shut up about the
performance of there bikes.

Kevin,

Does Bacchetta pay you for all of your pro-Bacchetta
rants? Just curious,

since

Quoted message said:

I've seen "Team Bacchetta" after your name in a couple
of places.

If they do pay you it makes me wonder about Bacchetta,
since you're such

an

Quoted message said:

elitist snob, with such poor writing skills, that I don't
think I would

want you

Quoted message said:

representing my company.

I mean, what better way to attract all of us to your
product then to

insult us,

Quoted message said:

call us all fat asses, and say that our level of fitness
is a joke.

Interesting marketing strategy. Did Rich Pinto think that
up, or was that

you?

Quoted message said:

Steve Christensen

I think this guy is trolling. It's quite likely an alt for
Flabbio trying a different rant from a new angle. 🙂

Sticker Jim said:

"Steve Christensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>, nogoslow

says...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"> I don't get your insistence on "sponsoring riders". We
can all ride and

>compare bents at our nearest dealers.

If you want a fast bike racing and competition is what
drives performance. No one else in 'bent manufacturing is
doing what Bacchetta is doing. Showing up at races and
fast events and invitationals and proving that there
bikes are fast. And sorry, what do you know about a bikes
performance? The fast guys know what works and what does
not work for speed. Now comfort and a seat for a fat ass
is another matter. I try not to confuse the two issues.
So buy a bike and ride it what ever one that is and get
that fat ass smaller. Bent riders are quite a joke IMHO
in the fitness department. Rich Pinto has done a lot to
improve 'bents image with the Aero and it is time for the
other manufacturers to step up or shut up about the
performance of there bikes.

Kevin,

Does Bacchetta pay you for all of your pro-Bacchetta
rants? Just curious,

since

Quoted message said:

I've seen "Team Bacchetta" after your name in a couple
of places.

If they do pay you it makes me wonder about Bacchetta,
since you're such

an

Quoted message said:

elitist snob, with such poor writing skills, that I don't
think I would

want you

Quoted message said:

representing my company.

I mean, what better way to attract all of us to your
product then to

insult us,

Quoted message said:

call us all fat asses, and say that our level of fitness
is a joke.

Interesting marketing strategy. Did Rich Pinto think that
up, or was that

you?

Quoted message said:

Steve Christensen

I think this guy is trolling. It's quite likely an alt for
Flabbio trying a different rant from a new angle. 🙂

Kevin "Nogoslow" is a real person.

--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sticker Jim said:

"Steve Christensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,
nogoslow

says...

Quoted message said:

>"> I don't get your insistence on "sponsoring riders".
>We can all ride and
>
>>compare bents at our nearest dealers.
>
>If you want a fast bike racing and competition is what
>drives performance. No one else in 'bent manufacturing
>is doing what Bacchetta is doing. Showing up at races
>and fast events and invitationals and proving that
>there bikes are fast. And sorry, what do you know about
>a bikes performance? The fast guys know what works and
>what does not work for speed. Now comfort and a seat
>for a fat ass is another matter. I try not to confuse
>the two issues. So buy a bike and ride it what ever one
>that is and get that fat ass smaller. Bent riders are
>quite a joke IMHO in the fitness department. Rich Pinto
>has done a lot to improve 'bents image with the Aero
>and it is time for the other manufacturers to step up
>or shut up about the performance of there bikes.

Kevin,

Does Bacchetta pay you for all of your pro-Bacchetta
rants? Just

curious,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

since

Quoted message said:

I've seen "Team Bacchetta" after your name in a couple
of places.

If they do pay you it makes me wonder about Bacchetta,
since you're such

an

Quoted message said:

elitist snob, with such poor writing skills, that I
don't think I would

want you

Quoted message said:

representing my company.

I mean, what better way to attract all of us to your
product then to

insult us,

Quoted message said:

call us all fat asses, and say that our level of fitness
is a joke.

Interesting marketing strategy. Did Rich Pinto think
that up, or was

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you?

Quoted message said:

Steve Christensen

I think this guy is trolling. It's quite likely an alt
for Flabbio

trying a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

different rant from a new angle. 🙂

Kevin "Nogoslow" is a real person.

This is where I came in 20 years ago when Easy Racer's Tour
Easy (Gold Rush) and Lightning Dynamics' P-38 were all the
rage for being fast. They were both being raced at the time
and winning a few races and so were being touted as fast
recumbents. Alas, there is no recumbent ever invented for
being fast that I can't climb aboard and be as slow as
molasses. This newsgroup ought to be split in two - between
those who wanna be fast and all the rest of us who are slow,
slower, and slowest. That way the vast majority of us would
not have the aggravation of seeing these posts where various
idiots are constantly crowing about how fast they are on
this or that recumbent. In the grand scheme of things, speed
on a bike ranks near the bottom.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
-"]news:[email hidden]-
m... [...]

Quoted message said:

If the Aero is too fast a bike for your df buddies try
something a bit slower & cheaper. I ride my faired GRR
with the df riders in my bike club and, for the most part,
it isn't a bad fit. I am faster on the downhills and a
little slower on the uphills but about equal on the flats
and gentle rollers. The group I ride with appreciates
tucking in behind me going into a headwind. Sailing along
with a tailwind we can really get cranking along pretty
fast on the flats. When I get way out ahead of everybody
on a downhill I either slow down and wait for them or they
pass me going up the next hill. Either way I try to stay
with the group and get neither to far ahead or behind.

Most unusual that you should be able to stay with uprights
in hilly country. I have never seen it myself. Normally, you
will never make up on the downhills what you lose on the
uphills. You will fall behind and never be seen nor heard
from again.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 11:33:37 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Most unusual that you should be able to stay with uprights
in hilly country. I have never seen it myself. Normally,
you will never make up on the downhills what you lose on
the uphills. You will fall behind and never be seen nor
heard from again.

Rolling hills are pretty good for recumbents - parts of
Missouri and NE Kansas for example. Pennsylvania OTOH
insists on nasty short climbs and stop signs at the bottom
of every downhill. Makes a 50 mile ride feel like a hundred.

Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
two wheels...