I am sure many recognize the title of my post. I borrowed it from the History Channel. It's a great show. I watch it regularly. Now if only they would produce a show on the not so modern marvel, the bicycle. Whether we are talking about a recumbent or upright, this not so modern marvel of efficient transportation continues, in my view, to be viewed largely as a kids toy in the US. I have made this point before in recent years when gasoline was $1.50 per gallon. But now it's $3.50 or more a gallon and at least in my area, the bike continues to be overlooked as transportation! I cannot believe it! People continue to be astonished when I tell them I commute to work (7 miles) on a bike. It takes 30-35 minutes depending on lights and traffic. I tell them it takes me 10 to 15 mins to drive! Still, they hold onto their car, truck, or suv, and [censored] every day about the price of gas! Go figure.
I am sure many recognize the title of my post. I borrowed it from the History Channel. It's a great show. I watch it regularly. Now if only they would produce a show on the not so modern marvel, the bicycle. Whether we are talking about a recumbent or upright, this not so modern marvel of efficient transportation continues, in my view, to be viewed largely as a kids toy in the US. I have made this point before in recent years when gasoline was $1.50 per gallon. But now it's $3.50 or more a gallon and at least in my area, the bike continues to be overlooked as transportation! I cannot believe it! People continue to be astonished when I tell them I commute to work (7 miles) on a bike. It takes 30-35 minutes depending on lights and traffic. I tell them it takes me 10 to 15 mins to drive! Still, they hold onto their car, truck, or suv, and [censored] every day about the price of gas! Go figure.
I am looking forward to a upcoming relocation so I can start riding a bicycle to work.
-- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
stratrider aka Jim Reilly said:
I am sure many recognize the title of my post. I borrowed it from the History Channel. It's a great show. I watch it regularly. Now if only they would produce a show on the not so modern marvel, the bicycle. Whether we are talking about a recumbent or upright, this not so modern marvel of efficient transportation continues, in my view, to be viewed largely as a kids toy in the US. I have made this point before in recent years when gasoline was $1.50 per gallon. But now it's $3.50 or more a gallon and at least in my area, the bike continues to be overlooked as transportation! I cannot believe it! People continue to be astonished when I tell them I commute to work (7 miles) on a bike. It takes 30-35 minutes depending on lights and traffic. I tell them it takes me 10 to 15 mins to drive! Still, they hold onto their car, truck, or suv, and [censored] every day about the price of gas! Go figure.
I am looking forward to a upcoming relocation so I can start riding a bicycle to work.
Why can't you settle down in one spot? All this constant relocating is for gypsies. I suggest you get married and have about 10 kids. Then you will be permanently settled in one spot for the rest of your life.
Who said my abode was changing?
I would shoot myself before having children around - the only problem with the "Modest Proposal" was it being satire and not a serious proposition.
BTW, being married and having multiple children is no barrier to being told to relocate.
-- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Edward Dolan wrote:
[...]
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
> I am looking forward to a upcoming relocation so I can start riding a > bicycle to work. Why can't you settle down in one spot? All this constant relocating is for gypsies. I suggest you get married and have about 10 kids. Then you will be permanently settled in one spot for the rest of your life.
Who said my abode was changing?
I would shoot myself before having children around - the only problem with the "Modest Proposal" was it being satire and not a serious proposition.
BTW, being married and having multiple children is no barrier to being told to relocate.
Actually, being married with multiple children will anchor you. Your wife and kids will see to that.[...]
The choice is often move or be fired. Jobs are hard to find, not that Mr. Ed the Slacker would know.
-- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
The starting wage for a civil engineer with a graduate degree is a larger US city is about $40/year, or less than a third of what a doctor or lawyer would make.
Kinda bizarre though--according to this page, Civil Engineers with a Bachelors have a higher average starting salary than those with a Masters degree. Wow, Petroleum engineers too!
"Victor Kan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
On Apr 17, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>
Quoted message said:
The starting wage for a civil engineer with a graduate degree is a larger US city is about $40/year, or less than a third of what a doctor or lawyer would make.
Kinda bizarre though--according to this page, Civil Engineers with a Bachelors have a higher average starting salary than those with a Masters degree. Wow, Petroleum engineers too!
I don't know, but if I had to venture a guess I'd say civil engineers who have hung around in college to get masters degrees and other advanced degrees probably don't have the reputation of being the "can do" types entering in the field.
In the photographs lowracer bike number 6 appears to be light lavender in color. Here's what I'm wondering: What kind masculinity issues do face when riding that bike?
In the photographs lowracer bike number 6 appears to be light lavender in color. Here's what I'm wondering: What kind masculinity issues do face when riding that bike?
I call it light purple and have no issues. 🙂
(Looks at picture on monitor, turns head slightly and looks at actual bike) - the color is more towards purple than lavender in real life.
However, the common orange and less common red do seem to be more appropriate colors for a Sunset than light purple, green, blue or silver.
-- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
"Victor Kan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
On Apr 17, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>
Quoted message said:
The starting wage for a civil engineer with a graduate degree is a larger US city is about $40/year, or less than a third of what a doctor or lawyer would make.
Kinda bizarre though--according to this page, Civil Engineers with a Bachelors have a higher average starting salary than those with a Masters degree. Wow, Petroleum engineers too!
I don't know, but if I had to venture a guess I'd say civil engineers who have hung around in college to get masters degrees and other advanced degrees probably don't have the reputation of being the "can do" types entering in the field.
Actually, there is a shortage of civil engineers with graduate degrees. However, the shortage results in more work for the same pay, not higher wages. The level playing field imagined by the libertarian free market advocates only exists in theory; in the real world the system is always gamed to someones advantage.
-- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Wilson said:
"Victor Kan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
On Apr 17, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> wrote: > The starting wage for a civil engineer with a graduate degree is a > larger US city is about $40/year, or less than a third of what a doctor > or lawyer would make.
Kinda bizarre though--according to this page, Civil Engineers with a Bachelors have a higher average starting salary than those with a Masters degree. Wow, Petroleum engineers too!
I don't know, but if I had to venture a guess I'd say civil engineers who have hung around in college to get masters degrees and other advanced degrees probably don't have the reputation of being the "can do" types entering in the field.
Actually, there is a shortage of civil engineers with graduate degrees. However, the shortage results in more work for the same pay, not higher wages. The level playing field imagined by the libertarian free market advocates only exists in theory; in the real world the system is always gamed to someones advantage.
--
I'm not getting it. If the shortage of civil engineers with graduate degrees isn't driving up their wages, but only resulting in a greater work load for them, then I have to wonder if their numerical shortage isn't somewhat imagined in some quarters. It appears the present work load is getting done with existing personnel. What am I missing?
"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Wilson said:
"Victor Kan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Apr 17, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> > wrote: >> The starting wage for a civil engineer with a graduate degree is a >> larger US city is about $40/year, or less than a third of what a >> doctor >> or lawyer would make. > > http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm > > Kinda bizarre though--according to this page, Civil Engineers with a > Bachelors have a higher average starting salary than those with a > Masters degree. Wow, Petroleum engineers too! > > > I don't know, but if I had to venture a guess I'd say civil engineers who have hung around in college to get masters degrees and other advanced degrees probably don't have the reputation of being the "can do" types entering in the field.
Actually, there is a shortage of civil engineers with graduate degrees. However, the shortage results in more work for the same pay, not higher wages. The level playing field imagined by the libertarian free market advocates only exists in theory; in the real world the system is always gamed to someones advantage.
I'm not getting it. If the shortage of civil engineers with graduate degrees isn't driving up their wages, but only resulting in a greater work load for them, then I have to wonder if their numerical shortage isn't somewhat imagined in some quarters. It appears the present work load is getting done with existing personnel. What am I missing?
Engineering is an exempt profession, so an engineer working 70 hours per week can be paid the same as one working 40 hours per week. When the cost of benefits are included, there is a great incentive to NOT hire more engineers.
Non-exempt employees get paid "time and a half" [1] by the FLSA, so at some point it becomes financially advantageous for the employer to hire more workers.
[1] Unless covered by a collective bargaining agreement that has a different provision.
-- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Wilson said:
"Victor Kan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Apr 17, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> > wrote: >> The starting wage for a civil engineer with a graduate degree is a >> larger US city is about $40/year, or less than a third of what a doctor >> or lawyer would make.
Jeez, only $40. a year? I will pay you more than that to clean up after my cats.
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
> http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm > > Kinda bizarre though--according to this page, Civil Engineers with a > Bachelors have a higher average starting salary than those with a > Masters degree. Wow, Petroleum engineers too! > > > I don't know, but if I had to venture a guess I'd say civil engineers who have hung around in college to get masters degrees and other advanced degrees probably don't have the reputation of being the "can do" types entering in the field.
Actually, there is a shortage of civil engineers with graduate degrees. However, the shortage results in more work for the same pay, not higher wages. The level playing field imagined by the libertarian free market advocates only exists in theory; in the real world the system is always gamed to someones [someone's] advantage.
Mr. Sherman is well paid for what he does. Where did the idea ever come from that engineers need to make as much as businessmen. After all, they are just hired hands.
And how do the businesspersons contribute more to the overall benefit of society?
-- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Wilson said:
"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Wilson wrote: > > "Victor Kan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> On Apr 17, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> >> wrote: >>> The starting wage for a civil engineer with a graduate degree is a >>> larger US city is about $40/year, or less than a third of what a >>> doctor >>> or lawyer would make. >> >> http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm >> >> Kinda bizarre though--according to this page, Civil Engineers with a >> Bachelors have a higher average starting salary than those with a >> Masters degree. Wow, Petroleum engineers too! >> >> >> > I don't know, but if I had to venture a guess I'd say civil engineers > who have hung around in college to get masters degrees and other > advanced degrees probably don't have the reputation of being the "can > do" types entering in the field.
Actually, there is a shortage of civil engineers with graduate degrees. However, the shortage results in more work for the same pay, not higher wages. The level playing field imagined by the libertarian free market advocates only exists in theory; in the real world the system is always gamed to someones advantage.
I'm not getting it. If the shortage of civil engineers with graduate degrees isn't driving up their wages, but only resulting in a greater work load for them, then I have to wonder if their numerical shortage isn't somewhat imagined in some quarters. It appears the present work load is getting done with existing personnel. What am I missing?
Engineering is an exempt profession, so an engineer working 70 hours per week can be paid the same as one working 40 hours per week. When the cost of benefits are included, there is a great incentive to NOT hire more engineers.
Non-exempt employees get paid "time and a half" [1] by the FLSA, so at some point it becomes financially advantageous for the employer to hire more workers.
[1] Unless covered by a collective bargaining agreement that has a different provision.
--
I take your words to mean that you believe there is a shortage of engineers in your firm, but your employer doesn't necessarily buy into your hypothesis.
"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Wilson said:
"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Wilson wrote: >> >> "Victor Kan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >> >>> On Apr 17, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> >>> wrote: >>>> The starting wage for a civil engineer with a graduate degree is a >>>> larger US city is about $40/year, or less than a third of what a >>>> doctor >>>> or lawyer would make. >>> >>> http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm >>> >>> Kinda bizarre though--according to this page, Civil Engineers with a >>> Bachelors have a higher average starting salary than those with a >>> Masters degree. Wow, Petroleum engineers too! >>> >>> >>> >> I don't know, but if I had to venture a guess I'd say civil >> engineers who have hung around in college to get masters degrees >> and other advanced degrees probably don't have the reputation of >> being the "can do" types entering in the field. > > Actually, there is a shortage of civil engineers with graduate > degrees. However, the shortage results in more work for the same > pay, not higher wages. The level playing field imagined by the > libertarian free market advocates only exists in theory; in the real > world the system is always gamed to someones advantage. > > I'm not getting it. If the shortage of civil engineers with graduate degrees isn't driving up their wages, but only resulting in a greater work load for them, then I have to wonder if their numerical shortage isn't somewhat imagined in some quarters. It appears the present work load is getting done with existing personnel. What am I missing?
Engineering is an exempt profession, so an engineer working 70 hours per week can be paid the same as one working 40 hours per week. When the cost of benefits are included, there is a great incentive to NOT hire more engineers.
Non-exempt employees get paid "time and a half" [1] by the FLSA, so at some point it becomes financially advantageous for the employer to hire more workers.
[1] Unless covered by a collective bargaining agreement that has a different provision.
--
I take your words to mean that you believe there is a shortage of engineers in your firm, but your employer doesn't necessarily buy into your hypothesis.
No, the shortage is constantly being commented on by personnel departments of larger firms and by trade organizations. People leave the profession or decide not to go into it in the first place due to lower compensation and/or work expectations.
-- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Wilson said:
"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Wilson wrote: > > "Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> Wilson wrote: >>> >>> "Victor Kan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>> news:[email hidden]... >>>> On Apr 17, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> >>>> wrote: >>>>> The starting wage for a civil engineer with a graduate degree is a >>>>> larger US city is about $40/year, or less than a third of what a >>>>> doctor >>>>> or lawyer would make. >>>> >>>> http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm >>>> >>>> Kinda bizarre though--according to this page, Civil Engineers with a >>>> Bachelors have a higher average starting salary than those with a >>>> Masters degree. Wow, Petroleum engineers too! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> I don't know, but if I had to venture a guess I'd say civil engineers >>> who have hung around in college to get masters degrees and other >>> advanced degrees probably don't have the reputation of being the "can >>> do" types entering in the field. >> >> Actually, there is a shortage of civil engineers with graduate >> degrees. However, the shortage results in more work for the same pay, >> not higher wages. The level playing field imagined by the libertarian >> free market advocates only exists in theory; in the real world the >> system is always gamed to someones advantage. >> >> > I'm not getting it. If the shortage of civil engineers with graduate > degrees isn't driving up their wages, but only resulting in a greater > work load for them, then I have to wonder if their numerical shortage > isn't somewhat imagined in some quarters. It appears the present work > load is getting done with existing personnel. What am I missing?
Engineering is an exempt profession, so an engineer working 70 hours per week can be paid the same as one working 40 hours per week. When the cost of benefits are included, there is a great incentive to NOT hire more engineers.
Non-exempt employees get paid "time and a half" [1] by the FLSA, so at some point it becomes financially advantageous for the employer to hire more workers.
[1] Unless covered by a collective bargaining agreement that has a different provision.
--
I take your words to mean that you believe there is a shortage of engineers in your firm, but your employer doesn't necessarily buy into your hypothesis.
No, the shortage is constantly being commented on by personnel departments of larger firms and by trade organizations. People leave the profession or decide not to go into it in the first place due to lower compensation and/or work expectations.
--
It always seems I'm missing something here. If there is a truly a shortage and employers who need to hire additional engineers have to compete for them from a smaller pool of those available, then how come that doesn't tend to drive wages up? Claiming existing engineers have to work harder and longer won't answer this question because it only tends to increase the shortage as you point out above.
In the photographs lowracer bike number 6 appears to be light lavender in color. Here's what I'm wondering: What kind masculinity issues do you face when riding that bike?
I call it light purple and have no issues. 🙂
(Looks at picture on monitor, turns head slightly and looks at actual bike) - the color is more towards purple than lavender in real life.
However, the common orange and less common red do seem to be more appropriate colors for a Sunset than light purple, green, blue or silver.
--
I completely agree with your last sentence. I wouldn't want you to see you doing group rides with roadies on that bike. Recumbents are still weird enough as it is. You just had to have bought that bike from a woman. It's the only plausible explanation. If you won't paint it then you ought to sell it to someone who will.
"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Wilson said:
"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Wilson wrote: >> >> "Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >>> Wilson wrote: >>>> >>>> "Victor Kan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>>> news:[email hidden]... >>>> >>>>> On Apr 17, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> The starting wage for a civil engineer with a graduate degree is a >>>>>> larger US city is about $40/year, or less than a third of what >>>>>> a doctor >>>>>> or lawyer would make. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm >>>>> >>>>> Kinda bizarre though--according to this page, Civil Engineers >>>>> with a >>>>> Bachelors have a higher average starting salary than those with a >>>>> Masters degree. Wow, Petroleum engineers too! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> I don't know, but if I had to venture a guess I'd say civil >>>> engineers who have hung around in college to get masters degrees >>>> and other advanced degrees probably don't have the reputation of >>>> being the "can do" types entering in the field. >>> >>> Actually, there is a shortage of civil engineers with graduate >>> degrees. However, the shortage results in more work for the same >>> pay, not higher wages. The level playing field imagined by the >>> libertarian free market advocates only exists in theory; in the >>> real world the system is always gamed to someones advantage. >>> >>> >> I'm not getting it. If the shortage of civil engineers with >> graduate degrees isn't driving up their wages, but only resulting >> in a greater work load for them, then I have to wonder if their >> numerical shortage isn't somewhat imagined in some quarters. It >> appears the present work load is getting done with existing >> personnel. What am I missing? > > Engineering is an exempt profession, so an engineer working 70 hours > per week can be paid the same as one working 40 hours per week. When > the cost of benefits are included, there is a great incentive to NOT > hire more engineers. > > Non-exempt employees get paid "time and a half" [1] by the FLSA, so > at some point it becomes financially advantageous for the employer > to hire more workers. > > [1] Unless covered by a collective bargaining agreement that has a > different provision.
I take your words to mean that you believe there is a shortage of engineers in your firm, but your employer doesn't necessarily buy into your hypothesis.
No, the shortage is constantly being commented on by personnel departments of larger firms and by trade organizations. People leave the profession or decide not to go into it in the first place due to lower compensation and/or work expectations.
It always seems I'm missing something here. If there is a truly a shortage and employers who need to hire additional engineers have to compete for them from a smaller pool of those available, then how come that doesn't tend to drive wages up? Claiming existing engineers have to work harder and longer won't answer this question because it only tends to increase the shortage as you point out above.
What you are missing is that the economic theory of supply and demand does not apply because of external factors "gaming" the system.
-- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Wilson said:
<snip occupational counseling>
"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Since graduation, the only optional spending I have done is the > adoption of three orphans: > <http://www.flickr.com/photos/19704682@N08/>.
<snip personal finance and bible references>
In the photographs lowracer bike number 6 appears to be light lavender in color. Here's what I'm wondering: What kind masculinity issues do you face when riding that bike?
I call it light purple and have no issues. 🙂
(Looks at picture on monitor, turns head slightly and looks at actual bike) - the color is more towards purple than lavender in real life.
However, the common orange and less common red do seem to be more appropriate colors for a Sunset than light purple, green, blue or silver.
I completely agree with your last sentence. I wouldn't want you to see you doing group rides with roadies on that bike. Recumbents are still weird enough as it is. You just had to have bought that bike from a woman. It's the only plausible explanation. If you won't paint it then you ought to sell it to someone who will.
Actually, both former owners were male, while one of the former owners of the red Sunset was female.
Quoted message said:
By the way, how much would you take for it?
Not for sale, but about $2K if it was.
-- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Wilson said:
"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Wilson wrote: > > "Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> Wilson wrote: >>> >>> "Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>> news:[email hidden]... >>>> Wilson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> "Victor Kan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>>>> news:[email hidden]... >>>>>> On Apr 17, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> The starting wage for a civil engineer with a graduate degree is >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> larger US city is about $40/year, or less than a third of what a >>>>>>> doctor >>>>>>> or lawyer would make. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Kinda bizarre though--according to this page, Civil Engineers with >>>>>> a >>>>>> Bachelors have a higher average starting salary than those with a >>>>>> Masters degree. Wow, Petroleum engineers too! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> I don't know, but if I had to venture a guess I'd say civil >>>>> engineers who have hung around in college to get masters degrees >>>>> and other advanced degrees probably don't have the reputation of >>>>> being the "can do" types entering in the field. >>>> >>>> Actually, there is a shortage of civil engineers with graduate >>>> degrees. However, the shortage results in more work for the same >>>> pay, not higher wages. The level playing field imagined by the >>>> libertarian free market advocates only exists in theory; in the real >>>> world the system is always gamed to someones advantage. >>>> >>>> >>> I'm not getting it. If the shortage of civil engineers with graduate >>> degrees isn't driving up their wages, but only resulting in a greater >>> work load for them, then I have to wonder if their numerical shortage >>> isn't somewhat imagined in some quarters. It appears the present >>> work load is getting done with existing personnel. What am I missing? >> >> Engineering is an exempt profession, so an engineer working 70 hours >> per week can be paid the same as one working 40 hours per week. When >> the cost of benefits are included, there is a great incentive to NOT >> hire more engineers. >> >> Non-exempt employees get paid "time and a half" [1] by the FLSA, so at >> some point it becomes financially advantageous for the employer to >> hire more workers. >> >> [1] Unless covered by a collective bargaining agreement that has a >> different provision. > > I take your words to mean that you believe there is a shortage of > engineers in your firm, but your employer doesn't necessarily buy into > your hypothesis.
No, the shortage is constantly being commented on by personnel departments of larger firms and by trade organizations. People leave the profession or decide not to go into it in the first place due to lower compensation and/or work expectations.
It always seems I'm missing something here. If there is a truly a shortage and employers who need to hire additional engineers have to compete for them from a smaller pool of those available, then how come that doesn't tend to drive wages up? Claiming existing engineers have to work harder and longer won't answer this question because it only tends to increase the shortage as you point out above.
What you are missing is that the economic theory of supply and demand does not apply because of external factors "gaming" the system.
--
Sorry, but external factors "gaming" the system (what system?) and overriding the economic law of supply and demand is not understood.
"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Wilson said:
"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Wilson wrote: >> >> "Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >>> Wilson wrote: >>>> >>>> "Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>>> news:[email hidden]... >>>>> Wilson wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> "Victor Kan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>>>>> news:[email hidden]... >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 17, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman >>>>>>> <[email hidden]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> The starting wage for a civil engineer with a graduate degree >>>>>>>> is a >>>>>>>> larger US city is about $40/year, or less than a third of >>>>>>>> what a doctor >>>>>>>> or lawyer would make. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kinda bizarre though--according to this page, Civil Engineers >>>>>>> with a >>>>>>> Bachelors have a higher average starting salary than those with a >>>>>>> Masters degree. Wow, Petroleum engineers too! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know, but if I had to venture a guess I'd say civil >>>>>> engineers who have hung around in college to get masters >>>>>> degrees and other advanced degrees probably don't have the >>>>>> reputation of being the "can do" types entering in the field. >>>>> >>>>> Actually, there is a shortage of civil engineers with graduate >>>>> degrees. However, the shortage results in more work for the same >>>>> pay, not higher wages. The level playing field imagined by the >>>>> libertarian free market advocates only exists in theory; in the >>>>> real world the system is always gamed to someones advantage. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> I'm not getting it. If the shortage of civil engineers with >>>> graduate degrees isn't driving up their wages, but only resulting >>>> in a greater work load for them, then I have to wonder if their >>>> numerical shortage isn't somewhat imagined in some quarters. It >>>> appears the present work load is getting done with existing >>>> personnel. What am I missing? >>> >>> Engineering is an exempt profession, so an engineer working 70 >>> hours per week can be paid the same as one working 40 hours per >>> week. When the cost of benefits are included, there is a great >>> incentive to NOT hire more engineers. >>> >>> Non-exempt employees get paid "time and a half" [1] by the FLSA, >>> so at some point it becomes financially advantageous for the >>> employer to hire more workers. >>> >>> [1] Unless covered by a collective bargaining agreement that has a >>> different provision. >> >> I take your words to mean that you believe there is a shortage of >> engineers in your firm, but your employer doesn't necessarily buy >> into your hypothesis. > > No, the shortage is constantly being commented on by personnel > departments of larger firms and by trade organizations. People leave > the profession or decide not to go into it in the first place due to > lower compensation and/or work expectations. >
It always seems I'm missing something here. If there is a truly a shortage and employers who need to hire additional engineers have to compete for them from a smaller pool of those available, then how come that doesn't tend to drive wages up? Claiming existing engineers have to work harder and longer won't answer this question because it only tends to increase the shortage as you point out above.
What you are missing is that the economic theory of supply and demand does not apply because of external factors "gaming" the system.
--
Sorry, but external factors "gaming" the system (what system?) and overriding the economic law of supply and demand is not understood.
When real life disagrees with theory, do you change theory or believe real life observations?
-- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
