Mixing training goals within a ride

frenchyge said:

Is it counter-productive to mix training goals within a ride? For example, if I'm on a level 2 or 3 endurance ride, can I get a benefit from sneaking in a set of 'jumps' or 'sprints'? Since they stress completely different mechanisms, it shouldn't change the characterization of my endurance ride, but will the slow-twitch vs fast-twitch adaptations conflict with each other and make the whole thing pointless?

Is this a decent way to 'double-up' or does it hurt the effectiveness of the ride in general?

According to what I've read (Friel, Carmichael) mixing and matching is perfectly acceptable to an extent. Otherwise there just aren't enough days in the week to do everything.

Also, if you're going to do something like jumps or sprints you may want to do them fairly early on (but after a good warmup) while your fresh rather than at the end of a 3 hour L2/L3 ride or something.

Doctor Morbius said:

According to what I've read (Friel, Carmichael) mixing and matching is perfectly acceptable to an extent. Otherwise there just aren't enough days in the week to do everything.

Also, if you're going to do something like jumps or sprints you may want to do them fairly early on (but after a good warmup) while your fresh rather than at the end of a 3 hour L2/L3 ride or something.

First point, absolutely, with "to an extent" the opperative phrase. Second point, it depends on the reason/desired goal for doing sprint/jump/acceleration training.

Smartt/RST said:

First point, absolutely, with "to an extent" the opperative phrase. Second point, it depends on the reason/desired goal for doing sprint/jump/acceleration training.

Sure, and that's why I chose the example that I did. Jumps/sprints would tax systems that are going to be pretty much unused during the rest of an endurance ride. Doing VO2Max intervals during a level 3 workout would probably just change the overall characterization of the ride to a high L3 or low L4 workout. If you wanted to do that you would just ride differently and forget the intervals, right?

The goal of wanting to do jump/sprint training would be to improve sprint power and neuralmuscular strength. I don't understand how the goal comes into play, though. 😕

Smartt/RST said:

Second point, it depends on the reason/desired goal for doing sprint/jump/acceleration training.

My thoughts were that a person generally has more umph early in a ride and can maximize their power/wattage by doing them early when they're fresh.

Considering that there would be a final sprint at the end of a road race or crit, maybe one would want to practice them while they're fatigued then in order to better simulate racing conditions? Is that what you are suggesting?

Whenever I do LT or VO2 intervals I prefer to do them when I'm fresh though. Then if I want to tack on an extra hour or two at a lower intensity, that's fine.

frenchyge said:

Sure, and that's why I chose the example that I did. Jumps/sprints would tax systems that are going to be pretty much unused during the rest of an endurance ride. Doing VO2Max intervals during a level 3 workout would probably just change the overall characterization of the ride to a high L3 or low L4 workout. If you wanted to do that you would just ride differently and forget the intervals, right?

It may change the overall training session from an average standpoint, but what is important is the time spent in each zone. How much time spent in each zone is dependant on the rider's goals. A time trialist doesn't need to do nearly as much road work as someone who competes in 60 mile road races.

Quoted post said:

The goal of wanting to do jump/sprint training would be to improve sprint power and neuralmuscular strength. I don't understand how the goal comes into play, though. 😕

If that's your goal then I'd do them when you're fresh but thoroughly warmed up. Maybe Michael will add something as I'm curious as to why he would prescribe Sprints or Stomps late in a long ride. I'd think a person would be more fatigued by then and not get the full benefit by doing them late as they would early.

Doctor Morbius said:

Considering that there would be a final sprint at the end of a road race or crit, maybe one would want to practice them while they're fatigued then in order to better simulate racing conditions? Is that what you are suggesting?

I've always felt that intervals and recoveries serve two purposes. The primary purpose is the physiological adaptation the interval is intended to produce. For me, there is a secondary purpose: to build my confidence in my ability to produce the desired output when it is called for. So, I would want to practice sprints at the end of my ride, when I'm tired because that's how I'll feel when I have to sprint in a race. Likewise, I like to ride interval recoveries at a relatively high power (e.g., 200w) even it means that I have to take more time to recover, because that's closer to the surge/recovery experience of race conditions. But, maybe the physiological adaptation is the same either way.

RapDaddyo said:

I've always felt that intervals and recoveries serve two purposes. The primary purpose is the physiological adaptation the interval is intended to produce. For me, there is a secondary purpose: to build my confidence in my ability to produce the desired output when it is called for. So, I would want to practice sprints at the end of my ride, when I'm tired because that's how I'll feel when I have to sprint in a race.

I could see that being of value as a race draws near, but if you don't have one planned then wouldn't you want to maximize your sprint by doing them early before the fatigue sets in?

Quoted post said:

Likewise, I like to ride interval recoveries at a relatively high power (e.g., 200w) even it means that I have to take more time to recover, because that's closer to the surge/recovery experience of race conditions. But, maybe the physiological adaptation is the same either way.

Again, if you're doing your recovery portion of the interval at a relative high power, doesn't that minimize the power and subsequently the training effect of the interval? I'm not saying that there isn't a place for such methods, but you aren't planning to race until next season, correct? Wouldn't it be better at this stage to maximize your interval power?

Doctor Morbius said:

I could see that being of value as a race draws near, but if you don't have one planned then wouldn't you want to maximize your sprint by doing them early before the fatigue sets in?

Again, if you're doing your recovery portion of the interval at a relative high power, doesn't that minimize the power and subsequently the training effect of the interval? I'm not saying that there isn't a place for such methods, but you aren't planning to race until next season, correct? Wouldn't it be better at this stage to maximize your interval power?

That would be my thoughts (on both points). The point of intervals is to be fresh enough to do quality work in the target zone. If your 'sprint' intervals at the end of the ride only end up being at L5 or L6 power because of fatigue, then you're not really helping to develop your sprint.

frenchyge said:

That would be my thoughts (on both points). The point of intervals is to be fresh enough to do quality work in the target zone. If your 'sprint' intervals at the end of the ride only end up being at L5 or L6 power because of fatigue, then you're not really helping to develop your sprint.

Maybe Michael will chime back in as to why somebody would do something different. Rather than do the recovery portion of an interval session at relatively high power as Rap is doing, I would think shortening the rest period or lengthening the interval period would accomplish the same thing.

Edit: Rap just responded before I added this but I wanted to get this in on this post. I just started doing 3 x 3 intervals yesterday as I was having a hard time doing 2 x 20's (they weren't very consistant) and didn't feel as though I was getting as much out of them as I should.

I'm going to try something totally opposite of what is conventional wisdom this Winter. Instead of doing endless mind & ass numbing base miles @ 70% MaxHR, I'm going to keep my trainer sessions relatively short and do intervals gradually increasing the number over time, then drop back down in number but use a higher intensity and build back up. 3 x 3, 4 x 3, 5 x 3 then maybe 5 x 3 5 x 4, 5 x 5 etc. etc. Well, something to that effect. Haven't worked out the details yet.

Here's what gave me the idea...
http://www.biketechreview.com/performance/base.htm

Doctor Morbius said:

I could see that being of value as a race draws near, but if you don't have one planned then wouldn't you want to maximize your sprint by doing them early before the fatigue sets in?

Well, I suppose I could generate more power early in my ride, and maybe that would have more training value than generating less power but in a more realistic state of fatigue. It's an interesting question. Now that I think about it, I have never once done sprints when I was fresh -- not once, ever. Maybe that's why I was never a great sprinter. My thinking was always, "You're not going to have the luxury of sprinting when you're fresh, so why practice them fresh."

Doctor Morbius said:

Again, if you're doing your recovery portion of the interval at a relative high power, doesn't that minimize the power and subsequently the training effect of the interval? I'm not saying that there isn't a place for such methods, but you aren't planning to race until next season, correct? Wouldn't it be better at this stage to maximize your interval power?

I think all it does is lengthen the recovery time. Again, my thinking is, "When's the last time you got to sit in and recover after a push in the lead group at 100w? Never!" And, no, I don't plan to race for real until next spring although I may do a TT this fall to just see where I am with the adrenaline flowing. And, yes, my overriding objective at this point is to increase my 40K MP. I could care less what the actual number is at the moment, I just want to keep increasing it. I can do a variety of benchmarks to see where I am, since they are interrelated (e.g., 5min MP, 10min MP, 20min MP).

RapDaddyo said:

Well, I suppose I could generate more power early in my ride, and maybe that would have more training value than generating less power but in a more realistic state of fatigue. It's an interesting question. Now that I think about it, I have never once done sprints when I was fresh -- not once, ever. Maybe that's why I was never a great sprinter. My thinking was always, "You're not going to have the luxury of sprinting when you're fresh, so why practice them fresh."

I think all it does is lengthen the recovery time. Again, my thinking is, "When's the last time you got to sit in and recover after a push in the lead group at 100w? Never!" And, no, I don't plan to race for real until next spring although I may do a TT this fall to just see where I am with the adrenaline flowing. And, yes, my overriding objective at this point is to increase my 40K MP. I could care less what the actual number is at the moment, I just want to keep increasing it. I can do a variety of benchmarks to see where I am, since they are interrelated (e.g., 5min MP, 10min MP, 20min MP).

I understand why you do it. I just wonder if it's an optimum use of one's time. Hopefully one of the RST gang will visit this thread again. They ususally have some valuable information and/or studies to back up their methods.

I would think that fast group rides and "B" and "C" priority races would work on the things you're currently using intervals for, thus giving intervals their own place in the regimen.

Edit: Need to log off and check out my new toys. FedEx just delived my new Ultegra shifters that I got for $135.97 Mwa Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!! 😄

Doctor Morbius said:

I understand why you do it. I just wonder if it's an optimum use of one's time. Hopefully one of the RST gang will visit this thread again. They ususally have some valuable information and/or studies to back up their methods.

I would think that fast group rides and "B" and "C" priority races would work on the things you're currently using intervals for, thus giving intervals their own place in the regimen.

Edit: Need to log off and check out my new toys. FedEx just delived my new Ultegra shifters that I got for $135.97 Mwa Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!! 😄

You all have touched on all the pertinant issues, and I don't think there is such a thing as an "optimal" scenario.
When I said that sprint training doesn't have to be early in a ride, depending on the goals of the individual, I was alluding to the comments that have now been made about doing intervals/sprints, etc in a fatigued state vs. a "fresh" state. I'm not claiming that one is better than the other, it just depends on many of the usual factors: racing experience, goal event, available training time, strenghts/weaknesses of the individual, etc. And I would suggest that you could incorporate either scenario into your training based on your racing performance (or however else you establish your level fitness - eg: MAP testing/power profiling/TTing).
Certainly, if one is "too" fatigued before attempting any supra-threshold training, the amount of power that can be achieved will be compromised as will the subsequent training effect. ......... enter the power meter.

Doctor Morbius said:

I would think that fast group rides and "B" and "C" priority races would work on the things you're currently using intervals for, thus giving intervals their own place in the regimen.

That's a very good point, Dr. M. Unfortunately, at the moment I am in a sort of group ride "no-man's-land." I'm a little stronger than most of the riders in my weekend group rides and not yet strong enough for a couple of other groups in the area. The other groups are basically at the cat 3+ level and they don't wait for you. I hope to begin riding with them in the late fall when they slow down a bit for the winter. The most recent ride I heard about with one of the groups was 35mph on the flat and approaching 900w on short hills. I rode halfway up a 1.4 mile hill recently with a couple of the guys and the pace was 350w and they were chatting the whole way. If I was riding a couple of days a week with one of these groups, then I think you're right that I would feel differently about the role served by my intervals. Good point. I think intervals should be designed in the context of the full week program.

Doctor Morbius said:

I'm going to try something totally opposite of what is conventional wisdom this Winter. Instead of doing endless mind & ass numbing base miles @ 70% MaxHR, I'm going to keep my trainer sessions relatively short and do intervals gradually increasing the number over time, then drop back down in number but use a higher intensity and build back up. 3 x 3, 4 x 3, 5 x 3 then maybe 5 x 3 5 x 4, 5 x 5 etc. etc. Well, something to that effect. Haven't worked out the details yet.

Here's what gave me the idea...
biketechreview.combase.htmOpen ↗

I changed my approach on base miles this year and I thought it worked out great for me. I still did steady rides for the first couple months (Jan & Feb), but did them about 10-15 bpm higher than the 75% stuff from 2 years ago. When I was ready to add on some 20min intervals, everything was good to go and my power was better than ever (for that time of the year). I didn't notice my longer rides suffering one bit, and in fact I did my first century of the year in April (which is way early for me). All in all, it was a really good training off-season, despite my taking Sep-Dec completely off the bike.

I am trying to keep up on this thread, and have gotten a little lost.

I have been pretty fruitless at getting any useful information from a search of the forums concerning L5 and L6 etc...

I did find in a google search machinehead-software.co.ukbcfguide.htmlOpen ↗ which described 4 levels (L1-L4) and another site that discusses 6 zones...

What is a good source for exploring training in various heart rate zones? I assume that's what the reference is to, or is it power related???

Thanks.

midweekclub.cacoggan.pdfOpen ↗

It's primarily directed toward power, but the extremely useful tables on pages 15+ include HR info as well.

dgregory57 said:

I am trying to keep up on this thread, and have gotten a little lost.

I have been pretty fruitless at getting any useful information from a search of the forums concerning L5 and L6 etc...

I did find in a google search machinehead-software.co.ukbcfguide.htmlOpen ↗ which described 4 levels (L1-L4) and another site that discusses 6 zones...

What is a good source for exploring training in various heart rate zones? I assume that's what the reference is to, or is it power related???

Thanks.

I think that most of them are references to Andy Coggan's training zone schema, noted here in power and HR with a cross-reference to RPE: peakscoachinggroup.comPowerTrainingChapter.pdfOpen ↗.

RapDaddyo said:

I think that most of them are references to Andy Coggan's training zone schema, noted here in power and HR with a cross-reference to RPE: peakscoachinggroup.comPowerTrainingChapter.pdfOpen ↗.

I think the ones that DGregory57 linked to are based on Peter Keen & BCF, not Andy Coggan's.

I'm glad Michael Smartt added his input. I'm guessing that somebody like yourself who is a decent endurance athlete would benefit more from doing higher powered rest periods than someone like myself who fatigues more quickly.

frenchyge said:

I changed my approach on base miles this year and I thought it worked out great for me. I still did steady rides for the first couple months (Jan & Feb), but did them about 10-15 bpm higher than the 75% stuff from 2 years ago. When I was ready to add on some 20min intervals, everything was good to go and my power was better than ever (for that time of the year). I didn't notice my longer rides suffering one bit, and in fact I did my first century of the year in April (which is way early for me). All in all, it was a really good training off-season, despite my taking Sep-Dec completely off the bike.

Sounds like you just said screw base/foundation training and went straight into Tempo. I'm going to do those a couple of days a week and the intervals I alluded to earlier come late Fall & Winter. When Spring rolls around I'll add in longer rides should I even care to do them then.

I've thrown in the towel on century rides (did one last September) because sitting in the saddle for long periods of time is just too painful. It isn't bicycle fit ... it's just age and too much weight. I've gone through over a dozen saddles and none of them are very good over 90 minutes. And because of my bodyweight, even riding on the hoods hurts my wrists and hands.

Next year I'm just going to work on 30 min & 60 min time trials instead. If I get the itch maybe I'll do some 50 milers but that's not going to be my focus. Besides I've started lifting weights again (actually enjoying it this time around) and plan to divide my time between pumping iron and cycling for fitness.