Mixing Speeds

"Jack Loesch" wrote

Quoted message said:

Is a 9 or 10 speed derailleur compatible with an 8 speed cassette and

chain?

Quoted message said:

I am worried the chain is too wide for the derailleur cage. Thanks!

I'm running a Campy Chorus 9 speed derailleur (vintage 2000), 8 sp cassette
and 8 sp chain on an old road bike.
I'm also running a Shimano 9 sp XTR derailleur, 9 speed chain and 8 speed
cassette on a touring frame. Both setups work fine, although I've never
tried to index with either one.
--
mark

Jack Loesch asked:

Quoted message said:

Is a 9 or 10 speed derailleur compatible with an 8 speed cassette and chain?
I am worried the chain is too wide for the derailleur cage. Thanks!

Actually, there's no such thing as a "9-speed" or "10-speed" derailer,
that's just marketing talk.

The only parts that are truly N-speed specific are the shifter and
cassette. Generally you also need to use a chain that is indicated as
"N-speed" or "N + 1-speed."

In the Campagnolo system, 8-speed hubs only accept 8-speed cassettes,
but 9- & 10- hubs are interchangeable.

In the Shimano system, 7-speed hubs only accept 7-speed cassettes, but
8-, 9- and 10- hubs are interchangeable (with minor exceptions.)

Sheldon "N" Brown
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Sheldon Brown said:

Actually, there's no such thing as a "9-speed" or "10-speed" derailer, that's just marketing talk.

Is a "10 speed" derailleur cage wide enough for an "8-speed" chain on
an 8-speed cassette? Or a 7-speed?

Art Harris

Sheldon Brown said:

Quoted message said:

Actually, there's no such thing as a "9-speed" or "10-speed" derailer, that's just marketing talk.

I said:

Is a "10 speed" derailleur cage wide enough for an "8-speed" chain on

an 8-speed cassette? Or a 7-speed?

Oops. I see you covered that with N and N + 1. Sorry.

Art Harris

Sheldon Brown said:

Jack Loesch asked:

Quoted message said:

Is a 9 or 10 speed derailleur compatible with an 8 speed cassette and chain?
I am worried the chain is too wide for the derailleur cage. Thanks!

Actually, there's no such thing as a "9-speed" or "10-speed" derailer,
that's just marketing talk.

The only parts that are truly N-speed specific are the shifter and
cassette. Generally you also need to use a chain that is indicated as
"N-speed" or "N + 1-speed."

So you're saying I can ALWAYS use a new derailleur with
friction shifters?

--Blair
"You know I want to."

Jack Loesch asked:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is a 9 or 10 speed derailleur compatible with an 8 speed cassette and chain?
I am worried the chain is too wide for the derailleur cage. Thanks!

I replied:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Actually, there's no such thing as a "9-speed" or "10-speed" derailer,
that's just marketing talk.

The only parts that are truly N-speed specific are the shifter and
cassette. Generally you also need to use a chain that is indicated as
"N-speed" or "N + 1-speed."

Blair P. Houghton asked:

Quoted message said:

So you're saying I can ALWAYS use a new derailleur with
friction shifters?

I didn't say anything about friction shifters in that posting, but it is
true, any derailer works with friction shifters.

Setups with more speeds are liable to be a little fussier shifting with
friction shifters.

Modern Hyperglide and similar sprockets are not so good for friction
because they shift so smoothly they don't give you good aural/tactile
feedback if you have the derailer set between gears. I can't see any
good reason to use friction shifting with modern equipment.

Sheldon "Indexd Shifting Is An Unalloyed Good Thing" Brown
+---------------------------------------------+
| I have suffered from being misunderstood |
| but I would have suffered a hell of a lot |
| more if I had been understood. |
| --Clarence Darrow |
+---------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:20:56 GMT, "Jack Loesch" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Is a 9 or 10 speed derailleur compatible with an 8 speed cassette and chain?
I am worried the chain is too wide for the derailleur cage. Thanks!

9 or 10 speed Shimano rear ders definitely will have no problem
shifting a 6,7 or 8 chain across that number of speeds of cassette. A
10sp front der might rub a bit on an 8 chain at times, but it will
work just fine. The Campy gurus can answer about those more
authoritatively than I would.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Blair P. Houghton said:

Sheldon Brown said:

Jack Loesch asked:

Quoted message said:

Is a 9 or 10 speed derailleur compatible with an 8 speed cassette and chain?
I am worried the chain is too wide for the derailleur cage. Thanks!

Actually, there's no such thing as a "9-speed" or "10-speed" derailer,
that's just marketing talk.

The only parts that are truly N-speed specific are the shifter and
cassette. Generally you also need to use a chain that is indicated as
"N-speed" or "N + 1-speed."

So you're saying I can ALWAYS use a new derailleur with
friction shifters?

Not always. Some rear ders require more cable travel than some
friction shifters can provide, such as is usually the case with the
SRAM non-Shimano-compatible units. But as long as the shifter can
move the cable far enough, then yes, the der doesn't care what kind of
multi-speed chain is running through it from among those currently on
the market. (This is, of course, subject to change if somebody comes
out with an absurdly narrow or otherwise novel chain and matching
group.)
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Sheldon Brown said:

I didn't say anything about friction shifters in that posting, but it is
true, any derailer works with friction shifters.

Some older friction shifters don't have enough throw to reach all of
the gears with many more recent ders (my mid-70s Bridgestone has one
such), and many friction shifters have only half the cable travel
needed to operate an SRAM ESP rear der across a typical cassette's
width.

If the der's a Shimano, and the friction shifter's relatively recent,
though, your assertion is pretty much going to be correct. Probably
true for Campy as well, but that's an area you'd have a lot more
direct knowledge of than I do.

Quoted message said:

Setups with more speeds are liable to be a little fussier shifting with
friction shifters.

Usually livable, though, as long as the shifter isn't given to
creeping. Pay no attention to that noise behind the pedals!
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Art Harris said:

Sheldon Brown said:

Actually, there's no such thing as a "9-speed" or "10-speed" derailer, that's just marketing talk.

Is a "10 speed" derailleur cage wide enough for an "8-speed" chain

Yes.

The only place that the chain width matters is in side clearance on
the cassette sprockets. Run an 8sp chain on a 10sp cassette and you
will probably find it trying to climb to a lower gear unexpectedly;
put a 6sp chain on there and...well, you won't do it again. (This
experimental data courtesy of a moneyed fool's experience in trying to
update his "classic" roadie to more modern drivetrain kit; it was hard
to keep a straight face when listening to the description of What Had
Been Done So Far.)
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Werehatrack said:

Sheldon Brown said:

I didn't say anything about friction shifters in that posting, but it is
true, any derailer works with friction shifters.

Some older friction shifters don't have enough throw to reach all of
the gears with many more recent ders (my mid-70s Bridgestone has one
such), and many friction shifters have only half the cable travel
needed to operate an SRAM ESP rear der across a typical cassette's
width.

If the der's a Shimano, and the friction shifter's relatively recent,
though, your assertion is pretty much going to be correct. Probably
true for Campy as well, but that's an area you'd have a lot more
direct knowledge of than I do.

Quoted message said:

Setups with more speeds are liable to be a little fussier shifting with
friction shifters.

Usually livable, though, as long as the shifter isn't given to
creeping. Pay no attention to that noise behind the pedals!

Heres an anecdote:

I have a bike with some filagree shimano 600 friction shifters
operating a deore rear derailer and a sora front. No problem shifting
accross nine cogs in back. I expected it to be difficult to shift only
one gear at a time but it turned out to be quite easy. The front,
however, tends to creep a bit when riding through rough stuff. I have
it about as tight as I can reasonably go, but I still need to reach
down and trim after riding over big bumps in the big ring. The
springs in the sora front derailler seem very stiff.

And a question:

I wonder if it makes any difference in terms of wear that I probobly
don't shift the rear as precisely as an indexed shifter? Doesn't the
floating top pulley in the derailler mitigate any ill effects of
imprecise shifting?

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:57:01 -0500, Jim Smith <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Heres an anecdote:

I have a bike with some filagree shimano 600 friction shifters
operating a deore rear derailer and a sora front. No problem shifting
accross nine cogs in back. I expected it to be difficult to shift only
one gear at a time but it turned out to be quite easy. The front,
however, tends to creep a bit when riding through rough stuff. I have
it about as tight as I can reasonably go, but I still need to reach
down and trim after riding over big bumps in the big ring. The
springs in the sora front derailler seem very stiff.

Many of the Shimano front ders have very stiff springs. Not
surprising, really; that's part of what makes them shift down so
"responsively". It's also part of what makes them a royal pain in the
neck (or wrist) to use with a lot of the twist-grip units.

Quoted message said:

And a question:

I wonder if it makes any difference in terms of wear that I probobly
don't shift the rear as precisely as an indexed shifter? Doesn't the
floating top pulley in the derailler mitigate any ill effects of
imprecise shifting?

In my opinion, it probably makes little real difference. There is
probably some increased wear when the chain gets pushed far enough to
one side to not-quite-shift, but generally you're not going to stay in
that condition for long.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Sheldon Brown said:

Modern Hyperglide and similar sprockets are not so good for friction
because they shift so smoothly they don't give you good aural/tactile
feedback if you have the derailer set between gears. I can't see any
good reason to use friction shifting with modern equipment.

My chain and sprockets are wearing out; I do want to get
a few more gears on the rear, and new derailleurs front
and rear, but not to change out my shifters, because I
don't want to have to change my brake levers.

Being able to use a friction shifter with a derailleur
designed for an indexed system would give me more choices.

--Blair
"Good enough."

Jack Loesch said:

Is a 9 or 10 speed derailleur compatible with an 8 speed cassette and chain?
I am worried the chain is too wide for the derailleur cage. Thanks!

Worry not, regardless of what some web based 'experts' may say.It is
compatible w/o any issues WSE...for Campagnolo or shimano.

Art Harris said:

Sheldon Brown said:

Actually, there's no such thing as a "9-speed" or "10-speed" derailer, that's just marketing talk.

Is a "10 speed" derailleur cage wide enough for an "8-speed" chain on
an 8-speed cassette? Or a 7-speed?

Art Harris

yes it is...for shimano or Campagnolo.

I said:

Quoted message said:

Modern Hyperglide and similar sprockets are not so good for friction
because they shift so smoothly they don't give you good aural/tactile
feedback if you have the derailer set between gears. I can't see any
good reason to use friction shifting with modern equipment.

Blair P. Houghton said:

My chain and sprockets are wearing out; I do want to get
a few more gears on the rear, and new derailleurs front
and rear,

Why do you want to replace your derailers? If they're not damaged, this
is a waste of money.

Quoted message said:

but not to change out my shifters, because I
don't want to have to change my brake levers.

That's a non sequitur...changing the shift levers has nothing to do with
brake levers, unless your bike had combined brake/shift levers, but it
clearly doesn't.

Quoted message said:

Being able to use a friction shifter with a derailleur
designed for an indexed system would give me more choices.

Any derailer works with friction shifting, it's indexing that is fussy.

Sheldon "Huh?" Brown
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Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <[email hidden]>,

Sheldon Brown said:

I said:

Quoted message said:

Modern Hyperglide and similar sprockets are not so good for friction
because they shift so smoothly they don't give you good aural/tactile
feedback if you have the derailer set between gears. I can't see any
good reason to use friction shifting with modern equipment.

Blair P. Houghton said:

My chain and sprockets are wearing out; I do want to get
a few more gears on the rear, and new derailleurs front
and rear,

Why do you want to replace your derailers? If they're not damaged, this
is a waste of money.

_ You don't need new deraillers to have more gears in back. With
friction shifters all you need is the appropriate chain and the
gears. Sheldon overstates the problem with shifting HG cassettes
with friction shifters. It just works and it works a lot better.
For the most part you need to trim much much less than with 5 or
6 speeds, mostly there's no trimming required at all. If you
are misaligned, you do get less feedback, but in my experience
it's enough.

_ You can get indexed downtube shifters or switch to bar end
shifters, but IMHO there's no real reason to do that. Or not
at least until you've tried more speeds with your current
shifters and deraillers.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but not to change out my shifters, because I
don't want to have to change my brake levers.

That's a non sequitur...changing the shift levers has nothing to do with
brake levers, unless your bike had combined brake/shift levers, but it
clearly doesn't.

_ You've got it backwards. He wants to KEEP his current brake
levers, not switch over to brifters. While there are
alternatives, he's working under the assumption

indexing == brifters

_ Having friction shifters does have some admittingly minor
advantages. You can throw any wheel with any number of any
manufacters cogs in the back and with a simple check of the
limit screws be good to go. Bar ends with a switch between
indexing and friction could offer the best of all worlds.
I don't know if the downtube indexed shifters have this
option of switching modes.

_ Booker C. Bense

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Sheldon Brown said:

I said:

Quoted message said:

Modern Hyperglide and similar sprockets are not so good for friction
because they shift so smoothly they don't give you good aural/tactile
feedback if you have the derailer set between gears. I can't see any
good reason to use friction shifting with modern equipment.

Blair P. Houghton said:

My chain and sprockets are wearing out; I do want to get
a few more gears on the rear, and new derailleurs front
and rear,

Why do you want to replace your derailers? If they're not damaged, this
is a waste of money.

I'm presuming I'll need new cogs in the rear der to handle
the skinnier chain. I could be entirely wrong about that,
never having done it. The front might work, but if I'm
replacing the rear...

I also want to upgrade from my early-80s era Shimano 600
to some Campagnolo goodness. Eros or Veloce, at most,
though.

If I could get vintage Record, I could restore my bike
to as-new condition. But then I'd be missing on the
narrow-chain thing again...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but not to change out my shifters, because I
don't want to have to change my brake levers.

That's a non sequitur...changing the shift levers has nothing to do with
brake levers, unless your bike had combined brake/shift levers, but it
clearly doesn't.

It *would* if I changed to a decent indexing system.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Being able to use a friction shifter with a derailleur
designed for an indexed system would give me more choices.

Any derailer works with friction shifting, it's indexing that is fussy.

Which is the answer I wanted. I didn't know whether
the indexing was all done in the shifter, or was a
collaborative system with nonlinear (clicky) bits at
both ends.

--Blair
"It's gonna work."

Booker C. Bense said:

_ Having friction shifters does have some admittingly minor
advantages. You can throw any wheel with any number of any
manufacters cogs in the back and with a simple check of the
limit screws be good to go. Bar ends with a switch between
indexing and friction could offer the best of all worlds.
I don't know if the downtube indexed shifters have this
option of switching modes.

I actually have such a set of downtube shifters in a
box in the garage. My friction shifters have a plastic
washer that acts as a dust gasket for the chamber in
which the friction plates are placed, and that gasket
split at some time in the past, so I'd bought the other
shifter and planned to use it in friction mode when the
old one finally gets too screwy to use.

I actually don't know how many index points it has, so
I don't know if it'd be useful as an indexing shifter on
the current cogs or the ones I hope to install...

--Blair
"Engineering are fun."