Miniroundabouts

"burt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dear all,

it is accepted wisdom that minirbts are horrible for cyclists, especially
the four arm ones, but even the three arms are cyclist unfriendly. My
local council thinks that they are safer for cyclists (using some very
dodgy stats) and puts them in everywhere, despite the cycle forum being
unanimously opposed.

I know that some local authorities have decided not to put in minirbts
because of the danger to cyclists, and I seem to recall that at least one
had taken some out for the same reason.

Does anyone out there have experience, that I can quote in a fairly
general way, about local authorities not putting in minirbts or taking
them out, because of the danger to cyclists?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I prefer mini roundabouts to normal size roundabouts, and I've always
perceived minirbts to be safer than normal rbts - can you point me to the
evidence that shows otherwise.
Thx

Peter

burt said:

Dear all,

it is accepted wisdom that minirbts are horrible for cyclists, especially
the four arm ones, but even the three arms are cyclist unfriendly. My local
council thinks that they are safer for cyclists (using some very dodgy
stats) and puts them in everywhere, despite the cycle forum being
unanimously opposed.

I know that some local authorities have decided not to put in minirbts
because of the danger to cyclists, and I seem to recall that at least one
had taken some out for the same reason.

Does anyone out there have experience, that I can quote in a fairly general
way, about local authorities not putting in minirbts or taking them out,
because of the danger to cyclists?

I think the level of usage depends on the county you are in. There
hardly used to be any where I live in North Wales but now they're
appearing everywhere. In one place a 'slightly staggered' crossroads
was replaced with one (including feeder lanes!) and it is claimed that
there have been even more accidents than there were previously.
My driving instructor told me that where the guy who invented mini
roundabouts worked he put them at every junction because he thought
they were so good. (Leicestershire CC apparently inveted the spiraling
lanes on roundabouts which is why they use them everywhere including
where it is impossible to follow them).

I personally don't find them any more of a problem when cycling than a
normal roundabout although I'd prefer a direct route to where I'm going
which doesn't need me to give way!

peter

"pppeterrr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"burt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dear all,

it is accepted wisdom that minirbts are horrible for cyclists, especially
the four arm ones, but even the three arms are cyclist unfriendly. My
local council thinks that they are safer for cyclists (using some very
dodgy stats) and puts them in everywhere, despite the cycle forum being
unanimously opposed.

I know that some local authorities have decided not to put in minirbts
because of the danger to cyclists, and I seem to recall that at least one
had taken some out for the same reason.

Does anyone out there have experience, that I can quote in a fairly
general way, about local authorities not putting in minirbts or taking
them out, because of the danger to cyclists?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I prefer mini roundabouts to normal size roundabouts, and I've always
perceived minirbts to be safer than normal rbts - can you point me to the
evidence that shows otherwise.
Thx

Ahem, having reread your post - ignore mine...
Sorry
Peter

burt said:

Dear all,

it is accepted wisdom that minirbts are horrible for cyclists,
especially the four arm ones,

Horrible for unskilled or low-powered cyclists maybe, but personally I often
prefer them to crossroads, as they're quicker and also mean you don't have
to hang around waiting in a vulnerable position in teh middle of the road.

Is there a way they could be made friendlier for all cyclists, rather thann
getting rid of them altogether?

Quoted message said:

but even the three arms are cyclist
unfriendly. My local council thinks that they are safer for cyclists
(using some very dodgy stats) and puts them in everywhere, despite
the cycle forum being unanimously opposed.

Eh?

~PB

On Mon, 08 Jan 2007 20:32:21 GMT

burt said:

Dear all,

it is accepted wisdom that minirbts are horrible for cyclists,

Accepted by whom?

Quoted message said:

especially the four arm ones,

Eeek! I don't recollect meeting a four-armed cyclist.

Quoted message said:

but even the three arms are cyclist
unfriendly. My local council thinks that they are safer for cyclists
(using some very dodgy stats) and puts them in everywhere, despite
the cycle forum being unanimously opposed.

As in, you said "they're evil", and your friend said "yeah, right"?

Quoted message said:

I know that some local authorities have decided not to put in
minirbts because of the danger to cyclists, and I seem to recall that
at least one had taken some out for the same reason.

Really? I can well believe there's a problem with or at some
particular mini-roundabouts. But in general?

Quoted message said:

Does anyone out there have experience, that I can quote in a fairly
general way, about local authorities not putting in minirbts or
taking them out, because of the danger to cyclists?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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It has removed 227 spam emails to date.

Golly. That's a quiet hour.

Quoted message said:

Paying users do not have this message in their emails.
Try SPAMfighter for free now!

Have these people never heard of irony?

--
not me guv

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

burt said:

Dear all,

it is accepted wisdom that minirbts are horrible for cyclists,
especially the four arm ones,

Horrible for unskilled or low-powered cyclists maybe, but personally I
often prefer them to crossroads, as they're quicker and also mean you
don't have to hang around waiting in a vulnerable position in teh middle
of the road.

Is there a way they could be made friendlier for all cyclists, rather
thann getting rid of them altogether?

Quoted message said:

but even the three arms are cyclist
unfriendly. My local council thinks that they are safer for cyclists
(using some very dodgy stats) and puts them in everywhere, despite
the cycle forum being unanimously opposed.

Eh?

We have a cycle forum here, where we tell the authority what cyclists want,
and they ignore it. In the last nine years, they've had to restart it five
times because all the cyclists became so disillusioned they just stopped
turning up! We've discussed minirbts a number of times, and they've always
been unanimously condemned.

Still, it's not just us they ignore, they ignore their own policies too!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users.
It has removed 227 spam emails to date.
Paying users do not have this message in their emails.
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"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

burt said:

Dear all,

it is accepted wisdom that minirbts are horrible for cyclists,
especially the four arm ones,

Horrible for unskilled or low-powered cyclists maybe, but personally I
often prefer them to crossroads, as they're quicker and also mean you
don't have to hang around waiting in a vulnerable position in teh middle
of the road.

Is there a way they could be made friendlier for all cyclists, rather
thann getting rid of them altogether?

Quoted message said:

but even the three arms are cyclist
unfriendly. My local council thinks that they are safer for cyclists
(using some very dodgy stats) and puts them in everywhere, despite
the cycle forum being unanimously opposed.

Eh?

A few mini-circles have appeared on one of my cycle routes, its of such
little consequence that my route across it is similar to the route i woudl
take in my car. (ie wheels over the white)

I generally find that the biggest problem on big circles is when theres a
car approaching on the entrance before yours and you have such good speed up
that your going ot have to loose most of it or even stop to give way.

Never really had problems with circles at all even when the route im needing
to take requires the furthest right lane. Biggest problem i find is not
accelerating faster than the cars in front.

Niall

"burt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dear all,

it is accepted wisdom that minirbts are horrible for cyclists, especially
the four arm ones, but even the three arms are cyclist unfriendly. My
local council thinks that they are safer for cyclists (using some very
dodgy stats) and puts them in everywhere, despite the cycle forum being
unanimously opposed.

I know that some local authorities have decided not to put in minirbts
because of the danger to cyclists, and I seem to recall that at least one
had taken some out for the same reason.

Does anyone out there have experience, that I can quote in a fairly
general way, about local authorities not putting in minirbts or taking
them out, because of the danger to cyclists?

I've never been that bothered by roundabouts on my bike. What's the problem
with them? The usual mini roundabout problem of everyone being able to see
each other and getting confused or the occasional [censored] design where a
t-junction gets converted and still looks just like a T from two sides?

In article <[email hidden]>, burt
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Dear all,

it is accepted wisdom that minirbts are horrible for cyclists,

Why? What's wrong with them? They've never bothered me.

"Rob Morley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Why? What's wrong with them? They've never bothered me.

Nor me. I wasn't so sure of large multi-lane roundabouts when I started, but
reading cyclecraft sorted me there.

Jc.

burt said:

Dear all,

it is accepted wisdom that minirbts are horrible for cyclists, especially
the four arm ones, but even the three arms are cyclist unfriendly.

There's only one that I use regularly (3 arms) and I don't have a
problem with it.
When quiet you can zoom across without having to wait for lights to
change, when busy all the drivers stare at each other terrified to move
and you can zoom around them.

Quoted message said:

My local council thinks that they are safer for cyclists (using some very dodgy
stats)

I'd like to see their stats

Quoted message said:

and puts them in everywhere, despite the cycle forum being
unanimously opposed.

I'd like to hear why

Rob Morley said:

burt says...

Quoted message said:

it is accepted wisdom that minirbts are horrible for cyclists,

Why? What's wrong with them? They've never bothered me.

I don't have a problem with mini roundabouts either - except where
they have been shoe-horned onto junctions as an inappropriate solution
to complex traffic flows (there's one not far from here where a
staggered junction - main route plus two T junctions from not-so-major
routes - has been replaced by a pair of mini-roundabouts. The revised
priorities aren't helpful, and given the reluctance of drivers to use
indicators (and the difficulty of indicating clearly at all stages
when negotiating a double mini) the net result is increased
frustration of regular users, confusion for those encountering the
junction for the first time, a shift in some rat-run patterns (which,
I suspect, are NOT what the council wanted!) and (so I understand) a
succession of near-misses and increased queue lengths.

Where there could be real problems is in the wet. Road paint is
notorious for being slippery in the wet. Which is a problem if one is
trying to ride across the paint other than in a straight line.
Straight-lining a mini-roundabout is _a_ solution, but not where the
circle has been raised into a dome. Crossing THAT means encountering
varying camber unless cutting an accurate diameter, which is hardly
desirable if there's other traffic around, and difficult for many
entry/exit combinations.

I also suspect there can be problems because the ideal line for a
cyclist through a mini-roundabout junction is incompatible with the
theoretical lane layout, so the cyclist will be expected to perform a
multiple wiggle rather than a smooth single curve. Motorists will
expect cyclists to stop existing, but short of that to follow EXACTLY
the motor-vehicle path - which is not how most cyclists will behave,
so the bike won't be where the motorist expects it to be.

Overall, I think mini-roundabouts can be useful, IF there is enough
space to lay them out so as to provide all road-users with obvious and
safe routes through the junction. That normally means including a
change of direction at the final approach to slow traffic somewhat and
improve sightlines. I suppose what I'm saying is that mini-mini
roundabouts aren't brilliant, that they need to be midi sized to avoid
too many compromises?

</ramble>

--
Tim Forcer [email hidden]
The University of Southampton, UK

The University is not responsible for my opinions

On Mon, 08 Jan 2007 20:32:21 GMT someone who may be "burt"
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

I know that some local authorities have decided not to put in minirbts
because of the danger to cyclists, and I seem to recall that at least one
had taken some out for the same reason.

The City of Edinburgh Council is slowly removing roundabouts of all
sorts and one of the reasons for this is the problems they cause
cyclists. That hasn't stopped a few new ones appearing though.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

The only problem I have had with mini-roundabouts is, on occasion,
other drivers going in the same direction overtaking me over the centre
or over to the right on the other side of the road.

I consider this quite a dangerous spot to overtake. The overtaking
driver is likely to come into conflict with anyone else trying to use
that roundabout.

ed_o_brain said:

The only problem I have had with mini-roundabouts is, on occasion,
other drivers going in the same direction overtaking me over the centre
or over to the right on the other side of the road.

I consider this quite a dangerous spot to overtake. The overtaking
driver is likely to come into conflict with anyone else trying to use
that roundabout.

It's also illegal, see HC rule 164:
*Mini-roundabouts* Approach these in the same way as normal roundabouts.
All vehicles MUST pass round the central markings except large vehicles
which are physically incapable of doing so. Remember, there is less
space to manoeuvre and less time to signal. Beware of vehicles making
U-turns.
Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD reg 10(1), 16(1)

That's probably what I dislike most about mini-roundabouts. If I want
to ride within the law (as I do) and if I want to avoid riding on wet
painted markings (which I do) then as I go round the roundabout it gives
following motorists the opportunity to overtake dangerously and illegally.

--
Danny Colyer <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
Reply address is valid, but that on my website is checked more often
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

In article <[email hidden]>, Danny
Colyer
[email hidden] says...
<snip>

Quoted message said:

That's probably what I dislike most about mini-roundabouts. If I want
to ride within the law (as I do) and if I want to avoid riding on wet
painted markings (which I do) then as I go round the roundabout it gives
following motorists the opportunity to overtake dangerously and illegally.

I make a point of driving /around/ mini roundabouts, which seems to
confuse quite a few drivers who just don't expect that sort of behaviour
and assume I'm going straight on even though I'm indicating to turn
right.

burt said:

Dear all,

it is accepted wisdom that minirbts are horrible for cyclists, especially
the four arm ones, but even the three arms are cyclist unfriendly. My local
council thinks that they are safer for cyclists (using some very dodgy
stats) and puts them in everywhere, despite the cycle forum being
unanimously opposed.

I know that some local authorities have decided not to put in minirbts
because of the danger to cyclists, and I seem to recall that at least one
had taken some out for the same reason.

Does anyone out there have experience, that I can quote in a fairly general
way, about local authorities not putting in minirbts or taking them out,
because of the danger to cyclists?

Good road positioning and clear signalling can make mini roundabouts
safe for what conventional wisdom says are the most vulnerable of
cyclists.

http://www.johnballcycling.org.uk/photos/miniround4
http://www.johnballcycling.org.uk/photos/miniround
http://www.johnballcycling.org.uk/photos/miniround2
http://www.johnballcycling.org.uk/photos/miniround3

Of course it's different when traffic is queuing. The safest thing to
do is stay in primary position behind the car in front and queue with
the traffic. However, this cancels one of the greatest benefits of
cycling in traffic: being able to filter past queuing vehicles.

Filtering on the right is safer than filtering on the left, as you
will be more visible, and passing long vehicles or windowless vans is
much safer, though you will have to reposition yourself if you then
want to turn left.

Filtering on the left is fine if you're passing cars, but extrememly
dangerous if passing long vehicles or windowless vans as you may well
be in a blind spot. If they then turn left you are in an extremely
vulnerable position.

Choosing to filter to save a few moments is always a compromise of
safety for time. But it would be quite ludicrous to tell someone not
to filter as they probably will anyway. Far better to point out the
hazards so they are able to make an informed choice, and maximise
their awareness of potential conflicts.

To answer your question, crossroads, where one road has clear priority
over another, or traffic lights, for four road junctions are safer
than roundabouts but slower for cyclists and motorists. The same goes
for T-junctions or traffic lights for three road junctions. However,
the safest thing to do for any junction is learn to use it properly
and be aware of the hazards.

Lobby your councillor(s) for adult and child cycle training to be
offered to schools and workplaces. I'm running a seminar for local
councillors on 23rd of this month. I'm going to suggest that spending
a £million on cycle training in the borough will save more lives than
spending a £million on c*cl* l*n*s.