Mimimum spoke wheels???

i'm #210 and have been riding 16 spoke shimano's for about a year now.
no problems so far. noticably less road vibration too.

marc silva said:

Hello,
Can anyone out there give me some opinions on some of the minimum Spoke
wheels out there?

Ksyrium? Good for everyday training? Ride quality? How well do they hold up?

Bontrager?

Shimano?

Campy?

Thanks,
Marc

jim beam said:

i'm #210 and have been riding 16 spoke shimano's for about a year now.
no problems so far. noticably less road vibration too.

How do you judge that? My impression is the tire masks differences
between wheels.

msdbek-<< Can anyone out there give me some opinions on some of the minimum
Spoke
wheels out there? >><BR><BR>
<< Ksyrium? Good for everyday training? Ride quality? How well do they hold up?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Propriatary parts, [censored] poor rear hub, expensive sppkes, avarage at best build,
not light, not aero-

<< Bontrager?

Shimano?

Campy?

See above with differences in hub quality. These 'designed for everybody'
wheels are overmarketed and quite expensive, when compared to a set of
handbuilt wheels designed specifically for you and your needs by a good
wheelbuilder.

Find a good wheelbuilder and save hundreds of dollars and get a well performing
set of wheels.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

See above with differences in hub quality. These 'designed for everybody'
wheels are overmarketed and quite expensive, when compared to a set of
handbuilt wheels designed specifically for you and your needs by a good
wheelbuilder.

Find a good wheelbuilder and save hundreds of dollars and get a well performing
set of wheels.

I'd agree, with the one provision that most of the boutique wheels have
aerodynamic advantages, which might be important if you're into time
trialling.

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Qui si parla Campagnolo ) said:

msdbek-<< Can anyone out there give me some opinions on some of the minimum
Spoke
wheels out there? >><BR><BR>
<< Ksyrium? Good for everyday training? Ride quality? How well do they hold
up?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Propriatary parts, [censored] poor rear hub, expensive sppkes, avarage at best
build,
not light, not aero-

<< Bontrager?

Shimano?

Campy?

See above with differences in hub quality. These 'designed for everybody'
wheels are overmarketed and quite expensive, when compared to a set of
handbuilt wheels designed specifically for you and your needs by a good
wheelbuilder.

Find a good wheelbuilder and save hundreds of dollars and get a well
performing
set of wheels.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Have to agree with Peter that top quality hand built wheels are the best bang
for the buck, and can be ³bomb proof².

I have Ksyriums on my cyclecross and they have held up well for 3 years.

I have a Bontrager Race X Lite, Hugi hub. The rear hub bearings failed very
early and my LBS had to get non Bontrager (Shimano) bearings to fix it. Took
almost 8 weeks to get bearings as bearings from Trek did not fix the problem.

I lust after a set of Campagnolo Hyperon Wheels. BUYcycling Mag says the list at
$4,476 for the set, but Colorado Cyclist says a little over $3K and they are
yours. What a savings!

--
³Freedom Is a Light for Which Many Have Died in Darkness³

- Tomb of the unknown - American Revolution

H. M. Leary said:

I have a Bontrager Race X Lite, Hugi hub. The rear hub bearings
failed very early and my LBS had to get non Bontrager (Shimano)
bearings to fix it. Took almost 8 weeks to get bearings as bearings
from Trek did not fix the problem.

Is your bike shop so unresourceful they can't open up the Yellow Pages and find
a local bearing supply?

Of course, you wouldn't have had this problem at all with a regular Shimano or
Campy hub.

Matt O.

Marc Silva said:

Hello, Can anyone out there give me some opinions on some of the minimum
Spoke wheels out there?
Ksyrium? Good for everyday training? Ride quality? How well do
they hold up?
Bontrager?
Shimano?
Campy?
Thanks, Marc

I come down on the side of wanting 32 or 36 spoke wheels for everyday
riding. You can vary the ride quality a slight amount by going with
thinner spokes, like DT Revolution. You can vary the ride quality a lot
more with choice of tire. Durability is in favor of standard spoked
wheels that have a quality build, in my opinion. I have not ridden
minimal spoked wheels enough to give you my personal experience.
However, I have ridden with many others who have broken a spoke, dented
a rim, had some hub difficulties; and experienced significantly higher
costs and down time with minimal spoked wheels. I note that the racing
team sponsored by Excel Sports rides Chirs King hubbed standard spoked
wheels. I also note that they recommend 3 cross spoking pattern in their
custom wheel build up. There is a large marketing effort and response to
minimal spoked wheels. I am not responding positively to the efforts,
but most shops and many riders are. Many manufacturers are providing
these wheels as standard equipment on their bicycles.

--

On Sat, 08 May 2004 02:03:22 GMT, "marc silva"

may have said:

Hello,
Can anyone out there give me some opinions on some of the minimum Spoke
wheels out there?

Ksyrium? Good for everyday training? Ride quality? How well do they hold up?

Bontrager?

Shimano?

Campy?

From where I sit, based solely on the comments and experiences of
others, there seems to be no advantage whatever for the typical rider,
and significant disadvantages in terms of durability, cost, weight,
serviceability, and ability to remain in use subsequent to a spoke
failure. (I will ignore the "coolness factor" that seems inordinately
important to some people, as it is not a practical or measurable
matter.)

Personally, I would continue to avoid anything below 28 spokes for any
application except actual competition and immediately pre-competition
training usage by a high-level rider whose physical conditioning
difference from his or her competition is known to be minimal or none.

To be competitive, concentrate on the *rider* first. Build the
bleeding-edge bike when the rider reaches that level. No 16-spoke
wheel will make you Lance Armstrong, but a 16-spoke wheel with one
spoke broken will make you a pedestrian unless you want to carry spare
spokes and a wrench. With 32 or 36 spokes, the wheel seldom will go
far enough out of true with a single failure to cause a significant
problem.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Quoted message said:

Of course, you wouldn't have had this problem at all with a regular

Shimano or

Quoted message said:

Campy hub.

"Regular" hubs have their own share of problems, nearly always with the
freehub mechanism. The hub bearings are usually fine, but the freehubs tend
to be pretty sensitive to water intrusion and wear. That's one area where
the Hugi hub (used by Bontrager) does quite well.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

H. M. Leary said:

I have a Bontrager Race X Lite, Hugi hub. The rear hub bearings
failed very early and my LBS had to get non Bontrager (Shimano)
bearings to fix it. Took almost 8 weeks to get bearings as bearings
from Trek did not fix the problem.

Is your bike shop so unresourceful they can't open up the Yellow Pages and

find

Quoted message said:

a local bearing supply?

Of course, you wouldn't have had this problem at all with a regular

Shimano or

Quoted message said:

Campy hub.

Matt O.

just comparison between different wheelsets on the same bike. [same
tires, pressure, etc.]

for the record, i was not anticipating any difference, but it's
definitely there.

and i have to say, repetition of this "wheel deflection is masked by
tire deflection" statement is bizarre. "tire deflection" is partly a
function of contact area, so it stands to reason that as area increases,
deflection decreases. that's why small radius bumps [like a small twig
for example] are virtually unnoticeable, but large radius bumps, like
pothole with comparatively small amplitude but a curvature radius equal
to that of your wheel, can impart substantial shock - sufficient to
bruise hands even. and that's /without/ bottoming the tire on the rim.

the "tire deflection" statement also doesn't address why cars with
comparatively huge balloon tires, low running pressures and suspension,
/still/ need rubber bushings to insulate suspension components from the
body. /rate/ of deflection is very much a part of the shock
transmission equation and simplistic "tires deflect more than the wheel"
statements don't do anything to enlighten.

dianne_1234 said:

jim beam said:

i'm #210 and have been riding 16 spoke shimano's for about a year now.
no problems so far. noticably less road vibration too.

How do you judge that? My impression is the tire masks differences
between wheels.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Of course, you wouldn't have had this problem at all with a regular
Shimano or Campy hub.

"Regular" hubs have their own share of problems, nearly always with
the freehub mechanism. The hub bearings are usually fine, but the
freehubs tend to be pretty sensitive to water intrusion and wear.
That's one area where the Hugi hub (used by Bontrager) does quite
well.

This is true, but I think you missed my point -- that "regular" hubs can be
pulled apart and serviced by anyone, with tools and parts on hand in any bike
shop (and in most cyclists' garages). Even freehubs can usually be flushed and
relubed, and put right back into service. I don't know about you, but I've been
grounded more than once by a frozen cartridge bearing. Even being resourceful
enough to get new ones from a local bearing supply, it's still a PITA compared
to servicing cup and cone.

I don't know about lately, but in the past Hugis were no more reliable than
Shimano hubs. Their unique ratchet mechanism is stronger than tradidional
pawls, which was the original intent. But dirty water and mud can make them
stick just as with Shimano hubs, in fact this seemed more likely with Hugi. I
heard plenty of stuck-Hugi anecdotes back when they were first popular. To be
fair, stuck Hugi ratchets are very easy to service, but OTOH the cartridge
bearings are less serviceable than cup and cone. Choose your poison.

However, Hugis are certainly a lot quieter these days, so maybe the seals are
better too.

Matt O.

Mike-<< "Regular" hubs have their own share of problems, nearly always with the
freehub mechanism. The hub bearings are usually fine, but the freehubs tend
to be pretty sensitive to water intrusion and wear. That's one area where
the Hugi hub (used by Bontrager) does quite well. >><BR><BR>

Perhaps but a recent call to the two Trek dealers for parts for these wheels
got the 'thousand yard stare' over the phone...Same for a HS bearing for a 5200
TREK...that only took 3 weeks to get and only cost $30 per...YIKES...

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Qui si parla Campagnolo ) said:

Mike-<< "Regular" hubs have their own share of problems, nearly always with
the
freehub mechanism. The hub bearings are usually fine, but the freehubs tend
to be pretty sensitive to water intrusion and wear. That's one area where
the Hugi hub (used by Bontrager) does quite well. >><BR><BR>

Sorry, Mike. This is not true unless the wheels hubs have bearings marked
Enduro/Swiss. ( Hugi-Switzerland, not Shimano )

Quoted message said:

Perhaps but a recent call to the two Trek dealers for parts for these wheels
got the 'thousand yard stare' over the phone...Same for a HS bearing for a
5200
TREK...that only took 3 weeks to get and only cost $30 per...YIKES...

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

In a one sided discussion with Trek in Waterloo about faulty bearings of
japanese manufacture, the techs at my LBS got the proverbial thousand yard stare
over the phone also.

Trek tech-service seems totally disinterested and could only say that they have
gone to the new bearings in Bontrager wheels because there is ³less² rolling
resistance. ( Read cheaper )

I¹ll wager Lance is not riding with these new bearings.

--
³Freedom Is a Light for Which Many Have Died in Darkness³

- Tomb of the unknown - American Revolution

Quoted message said:

Sorry, Mike. This is not true unless the wheels hubs have bearings marked
Enduro/Swiss. ( Hugi-Switzerland, not Shimano )

I'm talking about the ratcheting mechanism, which has nothing to do with the
bearings themselves. The high-end Hugi hubs have two large engagement disks
(they call them rotors, I believe) that drive against each other when you
pedal forward. It's about as bomb-proof as you can get.

The bearing issue you had is weird and does not reflect our own real-world
experiences (and we have sold many, many hundreds of wheelsets & bikes with
that wheelset). I replaced my own bearings last year (with the standard
ones from Trek), but that was due to too much time in the rain, not an issue
with play.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"H. M. Leary" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Qui si parla Campagnolo ) said:

Mike-<< "Regular" hubs have their own share of problems, nearly always

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the
freehub mechanism. The hub bearings are usually fine, but the freehubs

tend

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to be pretty sensitive to water intrusion and wear. That's one area

where

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the Hugi hub (used by Bontrager) does quite well. >><BR><BR>

Sorry, Mike. This is not true unless the wheels hubs have bearings marked
Enduro/Swiss. ( Hugi-Switzerland, not Shimano )

Quoted message said:

Perhaps but a recent call to the two Trek dealers for parts for these

wheels

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

got the 'thousand yard stare' over the phone...Same for a HS bearing for

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

5200
TREK...that only took 3 weeks to get and only cost $30 per...YIKES...

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

In a one sided discussion with Trek in Waterloo about faulty bearings of
japanese manufacture, the techs at my LBS got the proverbial thousand yard

stare

Quoted message said:

over the phone also.

Trek tech-service seems totally disinterested and could only say that they

have

Quoted message said:

gone to the new bearings in Bontrager wheels because there is ³less²

rolling

Quoted message said:

resistance. ( Read cheaper )

I¹ll wager Lance is not riding with these new bearings.

--
³Freedom Is a Light for Which Many Have Died in Darkness³

- Tomb of the unknown - American Revolution

In article <[email hidden]>,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote:

snip

Quoted message said:

The bearing issue you had is weird and does not reflect our own real-world
experiences (and we have sold many, many hundreds of wheelsets & bikes with
that wheelset). I replaced my own bearings last year (with the standard
ones from Trek), but that was due to too much time in the rain, not an issue
with play.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

snip

This could bring up a whole new discussion.

How many of these wheelsets or even customers come back to your shop for
maintenance?

Do your mechanics load/unload the wheels as a check?

My LBS which is the largest Trek dealer in the East, sells an awful lot of high
end Treks as well as Litespeeds and Moots. People around here will buy an $8000
custom bike like most people would buy a Trek 1000. Lot of ³pro² racers in here,
too.

They are located halfway between New York and Washington, DC in Wilmington,DE.
Delaware does not charge a sales tax, so many of their sales are to out of state
customers who probably don¹t return for ruotine maintenance.

But they are seeing around 1 of 8 Bontragers with this problem.
They went well above ³the call of duty² to fix my wheel which now rides as
smooth as glass.

In any event, Mike, many, many thanks for your interest and your help.

The Happy Camper

HAND

--
³Freedom Is a Light for Which Many Have Died in Darkness³

- Tomb of the unknown - American Revolution

MikeJ-<< The high-end Hugi hubs have two large engagement disks
(they call them rotors, I believe) that drive against each other when you
pedal forward. It's about as bomb-proof as you can get.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Except I have had to replace them, along with the two springs., I have never
had to replace Campagnolo pawls...

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

i'm #210 and have been riding 16 spoke shimano's for about a year now.
no problems so far. noticably less road vibration too.

They will be fine ... long as you stay where you can get help easily.
Once one of those spokes break, the wheel cannot be ridden and you
will need to SAG; not easy if you are in the middle of farm country
;-) A friend of mine got talked into these, not the 'cheap' metal
ones, the froo-froo carbon Dura-Ace jobs. She is not a racer, not a
particularly fast rider, but a friend convinced her they were the best
things ever. Then she had to stretch a new tire on them out in the
middle of nowhere, Wyoming - wheel diameter runs big, so the Michelins
required a lot of effort. Then in the middle of the English
countryside, near dusk, she broke a spoke. Had to find a farmer to
give her a ride to town. Bike shops say 'no can do' to fixing that
wheel. Buses will not take bikes. Ooops! She finally got back to
the states, got it fixed, rode for a few months, then last month she
blew another one in the middle of nowhere, California. Had to hitch a
ride to the nearest town. She gave up on the wheels, but
unfortunately the person who talked her into those has now convinced
her that she should buy Bontrage Race-Lites. Argghhhhh. Frying pan
into the fire.

- rick

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

The bearing issue you had is weird and does not reflect our own real-world
experiences (and we have sold many, many hundreds of wheelsets & bikes with
that wheelset). I replaced my own bearings last year (with the standard
ones from Trek), but that was due to too much time in the rain, not an issue
with play.

Mike,

You need to have Bruno re-pack them more often ;-) I ride in the same
rain as you, but have not had any problems with my Chris King,
Ultegra, or Phil Wood hubs :-) I do re-pack the Ultegras every few
months, and water intrusion has not been an issue.

- rick

Rick Warner said:

jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

i'm #210 and have been riding 16 spoke shimano's for about a year
now. no problems so far. noticably less road vibration too.

They will be fine ... long as you stay where you can get help easily.
Once one of those spokes break, the wheel cannot be ridden and you
will need to SAG; not easy if you are in the middle of farm country
;-) A friend of mine got talked into these, not the 'cheap' metal
ones, the froo-froo carbon Dura-Ace jobs. She is not a racer, not a
particularly fast rider, but a friend convinced her they were the best
things ever. Then she had to stretch a new tire on them out in the
middle of nowhere, Wyoming - wheel diameter runs big, so the Michelins
required a lot of effort. Then in the middle of the English
countryside, near dusk, she broke a spoke. Had to find a farmer to
give her a ride to town. Bike shops say 'no can do' to fixing that
wheel. Buses will not take bikes. Ooops! She finally got back to
the states, got it fixed, rode for a few months, then last month she
blew another one in the middle of nowhere, California. Had to hitch a
ride to the nearest town.

No one showed her how to open up (or even disconnect if necessary) her
brake? Does one spoke really make it IMPOSSIBLE to limp home?

Quoted message said:

She gave up on the wheels, but
unfortunately the person who talked her into those has now convinced
her that she should buy Bontrage Race-Lites. Argghhhhh. Frying pan
into the fire.

Why? Standard spokes (albeit bladed), right?

Bill "Race Lites my everyday wheels; zero problems so far" S.