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Millar - Interesting Guardian article

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27 July 2004
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  1. Very interesting stuff. Very sad though....

    http://sport.guardian.co.uk/cycling/story/0,10482,1269733,00.html

    http://sport.guardian.co.uk/cycling/story/0,10482,1269936,00.html

    The wrong gear
    He was known as the 'Boy Dave', a prodigious cycling talent who last year
    became world champion and had his sights set on two golds in Athens next
    month. But now David Millar is in disgrace, facing a ban from the sport for
    using the illegal performance-enhancing drug EPO. Why did he do it? He tells
    William Fotheringham about the pressure to win, the shame of his exposure -
    and how, deep down, he wanted to get caught

    William Fotheringham
    Tuesday July 27, 2004

    The Guardian

    Had it not been for an oversight in packing his suitcase last September,
    today David Millar would probably be celebrating finishing his fourth Tour
    de France, in which he has won three stages and worn the yellow jersey. He
    would be thinking about the Athens Olympics, about setting out to attempt
    something no British sportsman has achieved: two gold medals at the same
    games. He would also still be "living a lie", as he puts it: a highly paid,
    prestigious lie.
    Instead, he is sitting in a bar explaining lucidly and heart-rendingly how
    he destroyed what could have been a glorious sporting career by using drugs.
    His eyes are red at the corners and have a distant look. Occasionally, he
    seems close to tears. One hand drums almost constantly on his knee. He has
    always seemed somewhat distrait, but now he has the lost air of a man who
    has fallen from the heavens into an unknown world, and is trying to figure
    out where he is and what he should do.

    On June 22, Millar was detained in Biarritz by drugs police investigating
    his professional cycling team, Cofidis. He emerged 48 hours later after
    confessing to having used the banned blood booster erythropoietin (EPO) on
    three occasions. The key to his downfall was a pair of syringes which had
    contained the drug, that he had taken before winning the world championship
    in Canada in October 2003.

    "I used them, I forgot about them, left them in my bag, went to Las Vegas,
    came back, was unpacking and found them. I thought, 'What the [censored] has my
    life come to?' and put them on the bookshelf. It's my most private place, a
    place no one touches. It had scarred me: I had won the World Championship by
    a huge margin and didn't need to have used drugs. I had got to a point where
    I had wanted to win so much that to guarantee my victory I did something I
    didn't need to do. I didn't want to forget about it."

    The drug police found them when they searched his Biarritz flat after his
    detention, and put them in front of him late in his 48-hour detention. "At
    first I made up a story. I thought I could still get out of it. After 47
    hours they started threatening me, they were flipping out because I had not
    admitted to anything. It was Thursday evening, they were going to keep me,
    take me to Paris in a van, keep me in for three days then put me before the
    judge on Monday.

    "I could have carried on. I have a good lawyer in Paris and might have got
    away with it. But I thought, '[censored] this, I can't live with this.' It wasn't
    difficult. I was just thinking, 'I can't go through with this, I'm [censored]
    whatever happens, it's not 100% my fault, but I'm not going to live like
    this.' I could have kept fighting, fighting, fighting, but fundamentally,
    I'm not a good liar."

    He accepts that he hung on to the syringes partly because deep down inside
    he wanted someone to catch him, because he had lost so much respect for
    himself that he no longer cared if he were caught and it came to an end. "I
    believe in the power of the subconscious. It was my get-out. I wasn't happy.
    I wasn't enjoying it. I didn't like the point I'd got to. It was an extreme
    way of doing it, but it's typical of my style of life."

    Born in Malta, brought up in Hong Kong and west London, the 27-year-old
    Millar is nominally Scottish but actually rootless, a charismatic young man,
    part grunge kid, part art student, who opted at 18 to be a professional
    cyclist rather than go to art college. Asked how he made the journey from an
    idealistic youth who was adamant that he would never use drugs to a cynical
    professional who needed "guarantees", Millar holds up finger and thumb. The
    gap between them is half an inch.

    "It's that. I was 100% sure I'd never dope. All of a sudden it escalated out
    of control." It was, he believes, a form of adolescent rebellion against the
    demands of his sport. "It was the only thing in life that defined me. I
    resented that. I didn't think about it, there was no twiddling thumbs and
    wondering if I should or I shouldn't. I just walked into a room one day and
    did it."

    The turning point came during the 2001 Tour de France. He had won the
    opening stage in 2000, but a year later he fell in the first stage, and
    barely clung on for another nine days. Eight days in, he greeted me with
    hysterical laughter after one tough stage finish in Alsace. "By day nine or
    10 I'd started to go mental, the managers said they would fly my then
    girlfriend in, but when they asked her, she was, 'No, I'm not coming.'" That
    night, he saw an older professional in the team who introduced him to EPO.

    Before the Tour of Spain, that September, he travelled to Italy and was
    shown how to inject himself with the drug. There was no risk of a positive
    test, he says, because the drug was used in small quantities and taken well
    before competition. Nor were there second thoughts. "You don't stop and
    think, or it's game over. When the line is crossed, it's crossed. It stops
    being a sport.

    "I had taken on a load of responsibility" - his team was invited to the race
    on condition that he start and perform - "and I was taking that on, being
    professional." It was "mental insurance", and there was nothing to stop him.
    "There was very little guidance, few options, no coach, no set-up in the
    team to encourage you not to do that. No other team would have pushed me
    through what I went through in that year. I was going bananas."

    After winning another stage of the Tour in 2002 "clean", Millar used EPO
    again in 2003. This time, there were financial pressures as well. In 2002,
    he "had a [censored] year apart from winning a stage in the Tour de France. I'd
    saved the team's [censored] there, but wasn't in the top 100 in the world
    rankings. From making a lot of money I went to the basic that I had in 2002.
    I felt it was wrong. My salary dropped by 300%. It was like, 'I'll make them
    pay me a shedload of money and run this team.'"

    The drugs he took that May and August were in order to keep going during
    intense training over 10 days: courses of EPO taken to keep up the red-cell
    count, plus the use of testosterone patches to keep his level of male
    hormone up. Both red blood cells and testosterone drop as the body becomes
    fatigued, impairing performance. If they are boosted, more intense training
    is possible. "It's training hard and taking a certain amount of EPO over 10
    days so you can keep doing the training." As before, stopping taking the
    drugs well before racing removed the risk of a positive test.

    In recent years, since the drugs scandal that almost stopped the 1998 Tour
    de France, many top professional cyclists, particularly those specialising
    in the great stage races such as the Tours of Spain, Italy and France, have
    moved away from building condition through racing to high-intensity training
    camps, but it is impossible to say whether or not they are on similar
    programmes to the one that Millar used. He knows the solution: out of
    competition testing, which is currently being beefed up by cycling's
    governing bodies. People in the sport, he says, genuinely don't know whether
    their fellow competitors are using the drug. "I only know about me. I didn't
    ask questions of other guys. Everyone is so paranoid now."

    In January 2002, I asked Millar about his attitude to drugs. I didn't ask
    point blank: are you using them? Sports journalists, and particularly those
    who work in cycling, don't: it is like asking if someone beats their wife.
    Millar's answer was, "I don't need to dope. I don't have to live with myself
    doing that. There will always be guys ahead of me who are one step ahead of
    the rules. I have to live with it, because it's their choice." There was not
    an untrue word in the sentence, but it was not a point-blank denial. He
    looks back and says: "I hadn't refined my answers to be ambiguous." Later,
    he managed that, but felt uncomfortable.

    Ironically, from the start of this year, Millar had turned his back on
    doping and begun racing "clean" under the influence of a British coach,
    Peter Keen, and the Lottery funded World Class performance programme. "I
    wanted to win the Olympics clean, for myself. I wasn't good with myself. I
    had changed as a person."

    He regrets what he has done, and seems relieved that, for the moment, he is
    through with cycling. "If you go through such a big ethical change in one
    day it's going to affect you on a deeper level. I was unstable, my
    self-esteem started evaporating. I was living a lie and that's not good for
    anyone. It is so hard to explain, because I was capable of winning big races
    clean. I couldn't explain it to myself. It's very confusing. I haven't slept
    well for the last two or three years."

    More sleepless nights must await. On August 4, a disciplinary commission
    will decide the length of his ban. He will be stripped of the world title.
    He will probably sell his "dream home in Biarritz", which he has spent two
    and a half years having restored, but will never sleep in. Where next? He
    has no idea. He accepts what he has done, hopes the ban will not end his
    career, and now wishes to offer his services "to prevent young riders doing
    what I have done".

    For seven years Millar has been known as "Boy Dave" to me and my colleagues.
    He earned the nickname when he turned professional at the tender age of 19,
    and brought a fresh face, glamour, and a bit of rock-star chic to the
    two-wheeled world. Now, the boy faces a painful growing up.

  2. andrew said:

    Very interesting stuff. Very sad though....

    http://sport.guardian.co.uk/cycling/story/0,10482,1269733,00.html

    http://sport.guardian.co.uk/cycling/story/0,10482,1269936,00.html

    The wrong gear
    He was known as the 'Boy Dave', a prodigious cycling talent who last year
    became world champion and had his sights set on two golds in Athens next
    month. But now David Millar is in disgrace, facing a ban from the sport for
    using the illegal performance-enhancing drug EPO. Why did he do it? He tells
    William Fotheringham about the pressure to win, the shame of his exposure -
    and how, deep down, he wanted to get caught

    snipped

    Quoted message said:

    Reading this raises the question in my mind, "Don't they have random tests
    between competitions in cycling?"
    --
    Michael MacClancy
    Random putdown - "They never open their mouths without subtracting from
    the sum of human knowledge." - Thomas Brackett Reed
    www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
    www.macclancy.co.uk

  3. In part of his interview Miller says "my salary dropped by 300%"

    Sums up the guy's intellegence

    Ian

  4. Michael MacClancy [email hidden] opined the following...

    Quoted message said:

    Reading this raises the question in my mind, "Don't they have random tests
    between competitions in cycling?"

    No. This is one of David's comments in the article (At least in the
    print version, I haven't re-read the online one to double check). Hence
    it is possible to use EPO to increase training but not use it in
    competition (and thus, get caught).

    Jon

  5. "wheelsgoround" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In part of his interview Miller says "my salary dropped by 300%"

    Sums up the guy's intellegence

    Ian

    Just goes to show that you don't need to take drugs to win. They've tried
    very hard to prove that Lance Armstrong did, but failed miserably. The will
    to win against all adversity beats performance enhancing drugs every time.

    Brian

  6. JohnB [email hidden] opined the following...

    Quoted message said:

    Incorrect AFAICS, out-of-competition testing is in the UCI's rules:

    From http://www.uci.ch/imgArchive/Rules/E_14anti-.pdf

    Chapter XI
    "ART185 Riders shall be obliged to undergo out of competition testing by
    the UCI."

    Also if you join British Cycling and take out a racing licence you sign
    up to BC rules which allow for out-of-comp. tests.

    It just seems that it is so rarely carried out, if at all.

    I think that this is what he was complaining about (And what various
    bodies are pushing for).

    Quoted message said:

    Perhaps
    that's part of the problem; that the governing bodies are just as guilty
    to permitting drugs in the sport as those cheats who take them.
    They probably phone up the riders and make an appointment to visit.
    Remember the reluctance of the UCI to take any steps in the early stages
    of the Festina Affair?
    Cycle racing is riddled with a disease and I now sadly view it like
    wrestling - fun to watch but you know its false.

    It's a shame. The article did make interesting reading simply for the
    insights into his mind that it offered. The idea of using EPO when you
    don't need it simply because it offers a mental buffer is disturbing but
    understanding.

    Jon

  7. wheelsgoround [email hidden] opined the following...

    Quoted message said:

    In part of his interview Miller says "my salary dropped by 300%"

    Sums up the guy's intellegence

    About average IME. We have at least two members of staff at work who
    can't calculate percentages unless there is a percentage button on the
    calculator. I tried explaining the whole multiply by x.xx where [censored] =
    percentage required by this was lost on them.

    Jon

  8. Quoted message said:

    Just goes to show that you don't need to take drugs to win. They've tried
    very hard to prove that Lance Armstrong did, but failed miserably. The will
    to win against all adversity beats performance enhancing drugs every time.

    Nice sentiment, but I don't think it's true.

    --
    Callas

  9. Jon Senior said:


    Michael MacClancy [email hidden] opined the following...

    Quoted message said:

    Reading this raises the question in my mind, "Don't they have random tests
    between competitions in cycling?"

    No. This is one of David's comments in the article (At least in the
    print version, I haven't re-read the online one to double check). Hence
    it is possible to use EPO to increase training but not use it in
    competition (and thus, get caught).

    Incorrect AFAICS, out-of-competition testing is in the UCI's rules:

    From http://www.uci.ch/imgArchive/Rules/E_14anti-.pdf

    Chapter XI
    "ART185 Riders shall be obliged to undergo out of competition testing by
    the UCI."

    Also if you join British Cycling and take out a racing licence you sign
    up to BC rules which allow for out-of-comp. tests.

    It just seems that it is so rarely carried out, if at all. Perhaps
    that's part of the problem; that the governing bodies are just as guilty
    to permitting drugs in the sport as those cheats who take them.
    They probably phone up the riders and make an appointment to visit.
    Remember the reluctance of the UCI to take any steps in the early stages
    of the Festina Affair?
    Cycle racing is riddled with a disease and I now sadly view it like
    wrestling - fun to watch but you know its false.

    John B

  10. andrew said:

    Very interesting stuff. Very sad though....

    Thankfully, there's always something redeemably human about
    sadness....and while he's lost his cycling career, he might just have
    saved his life. He [censored] up, but he's had the sense to jump ship
    before he gets too deep More important things IMO. Fair play to him.

    Garry

    Quoted message said:

    http://sport.guardian.co.uk/cycling/story/0,10482,1269733,00.html

    http://sport.guardian.co.uk/cycling/story/0,10482,1269936,00.html

    The wrong gear
    He was known as the 'Boy Dave', a prodigious cycling talent who last year
    became world champion and had his sights set on two golds in Athens next
    month. But now David Millar is in disgrace, facing a ban from the sport for
    using the illegal performance-enhancing drug EPO. Why did he do it? He tells
    William Fotheringham about the pressure to win, the shame of his exposure -
    and how, deep down, he wanted to get caught

    William Fotheringham
    Tuesday July 27, 2004

    The Guardian

    Had it not been for an oversight in packing his suitcase last September,
    today David Millar would probably be celebrating finishing his fourth Tour
    de France, in which he has won three stages and worn the yellow jersey. He
    would be thinking about the Athens Olympics, about setting out to attempt
    something no British sportsman has achieved: two gold medals at the same
    games. He would also still be "living a lie", as he puts it: a highly paid,
    prestigious lie.
    Instead, he is sitting in a bar explaining lucidly and heart-rendingly how
    he destroyed what could have been a glorious sporting career by using drugs.
    His eyes are red at the corners and have a distant look. Occasionally, he
    seems close to tears. One hand drums almost constantly on his knee. He has
    always seemed somewhat distrait, but now he has the lost air of a man who
    has fallen from the heavens into an unknown world, and is trying to figure
    out where he is and what he should do.

    On June 22, Millar was detained in Biarritz by drugs police investigating
    his professional cycling team, Cofidis. He emerged 48 hours later after
    confessing to having used the banned blood booster erythropoietin (EPO) on
    three occasions. The key to his downfall was a pair of syringes which had
    contained the drug, that he had taken before winning the world championship
    in Canada in October 2003.

    "I used them, I forgot about them, left them in my bag, went to Las Vegas,
    came back, was unpacking and found them. I thought, 'What the [censored] has my
    life come to?' and put them on the bookshelf. It's my most private place, a
    place no one touches. It had scarred me: I had won the World Championship by
    a huge margin and didn't need to have used drugs. I had got to a point where
    I had wanted to win so much that to guarantee my victory I did something I
    didn't need to do. I didn't want to forget about it."

    The drug police found them when they searched his Biarritz flat after his
    detention, and put them in front of him late in his 48-hour detention. "At
    first I made up a story. I thought I could still get out of it. After 47
    hours they started threatening me, they were flipping out because I had not
    admitted to anything. It was Thursday evening, they were going to keep me,
    take me to Paris in a van, keep me in for three days then put me before the
    judge on Monday.

    "I could have carried on. I have a good lawyer in Paris and might have got
    away with it. But I thought, '[censored] this, I can't live with this.' It wasn't
    difficult. I was just thinking, 'I can't go through with this, I'm [censored]
    whatever happens, it's not 100% my fault, but I'm not going to live like
    this.' I could have kept fighting, fighting, fighting, but fundamentally,
    I'm not a good liar."

    He accepts that he hung on to the syringes partly because deep down inside
    he wanted someone to catch him, because he had lost so much respect for
    himself that he no longer cared if he were caught and it came to an end. "I
    believe in the power of the subconscious. It was my get-out. I wasn't happy.
    I wasn't enjoying it. I didn't like the point I'd got to. It was an extreme
    way of doing it, but it's typical of my style of life."

    Born in Malta, brought up in Hong Kong and west London, the 27-year-old
    Millar is nominally Scottish but actually rootless, a charismatic young man,
    part grunge kid, part art student, who opted at 18 to be a professional
    cyclist rather than go to art college. Asked how he made the journey from an
    idealistic youth who was adamant that he would never use drugs to a cynical
    professional who needed "guarantees", Millar holds up finger and thumb. The
    gap between them is half an inch.

    "It's that. I was 100% sure I'd never dope. All of a sudden it escalated out
    of control." It was, he believes, a form of adolescent rebellion against the
    demands of his sport. "It was the only thing in life that defined me. I
    resented that. I didn't think about it, there was no twiddling thumbs and
    wondering if I should or I shouldn't. I just walked into a room one day and
    did it."

    The turning point came during the 2001 Tour de France. He had won the
    opening stage in 2000, but a year later he fell in the first stage, and
    barely clung on for another nine days. Eight days in, he greeted me with
    hysterical laughter after one tough stage finish in Alsace. "By day nine or
    10 I'd started to go mental, the managers said they would fly my then
    girlfriend in, but when they asked her, she was, 'No, I'm not coming.'" That
    night, he saw an older professional in the team who introduced him to EPO.

    Before the Tour of Spain, that September, he travelled to Italy and was
    shown how to inject himself with the drug. There was no risk of a positive
    test, he says, because the drug was used in small quantities and taken well
    before competition. Nor were there second thoughts. "You don't stop and
    think, or it's game over. When the line is crossed, it's crossed. It stops
    being a sport.

    "I had taken on a load of responsibility" - his team was invited to the race
    on condition that he start and perform - "and I was taking that on, being
    professional." It was "mental insurance", and there was nothing to stop him.
    "There was very little guidance, few options, no coach, no set-up in the
    team to encourage you not to do that. No other team would have pushed me
    through what I went through in that year. I was going bananas."

    After winning another stage of the Tour in 2002 "clean", Millar used EPO
    again in 2003. This time, there were financial pressures as well. In 2002,
    he "had a [censored] year apart from winning a stage in the Tour de France. I'd
    saved the team's [censored] there, but wasn't in the top 100 in the world
    rankings. From making a lot of money I went to the basic that I had in 2002.
    I felt it was wrong. My salary dropped by 300%. It was like, 'I'll make them
    pay me a shedload of money and run this team.'"

    The drugs he took that May and August were in order to keep going during
    intense training over 10 days: courses of EPO taken to keep up the red-cell
    count, plus the use of testosterone patches to keep his level of male
    hormone up. Both red blood cells and testosterone drop as the body becomes
    fatigued, impairing performance. If they are boosted, more intense training
    is possible. "It's training hard and taking a certain amount of EPO over 10
    days so you can keep doing the training." As before, stopping taking the
    drugs well before racing removed the risk of a positive test.

    In recent years, since the drugs scandal that almost stopped the 1998 Tour
    de France, many top professional cyclists, particularly those specialising
    in the great stage races such as the Tours of Spain, Italy and France, have
    moved away from building condition through racing to high-intensity training
    camps, but it is impossible to say whether or not they are on similar
    programmes to the one that Millar used. He knows the solution: out of
    competition testing, which is currently being beefed up by cycling's
    governing bodies. People in the sport, he says, genuinely don't know whether
    their fellow competitors are using the drug. "I only know about me. I didn't
    ask questions of other guys. Everyone is so paranoid now."

    In January 2002, I asked Millar about his attitude to drugs. I didn't ask
    point blank: are you using them? Sports journalists, and particularly those
    who work in cycling, don't: it is like asking if someone beats their wife.
    Millar's answer was, "I don't need to dope. I don't have to live with myself
    doing that. There will always be guys ahead of me who are one step ahead of
    the rules. I have to live with it, because it's their choice." There was not
    an untrue word in the sentence, but it was not a point-blank denial. He
    looks back and says: "I hadn't refined my answers to be ambiguous." Later,
    he managed that, but felt uncomfortable.

    Ironically, from the start of this year, Millar had turned his back on
    doping and begun racing "clean" under the influence of a British coach,
    Peter Keen, and the Lottery funded World Class performance programme. "I
    wanted to win the Olympics clean, for myself. I wasn't good with myself. I
    had changed as a person."

    He regrets what he has done, and seems relieved that, for the moment, he is
    through with cycling. "If you go through such a big ethical change in one
    day it's going to affect you on a deeper level. I was unstable, my
    self-esteem started evaporating. I was living a lie and that's not good for
    anyone. It is so hard to explain, because I was capable of winning big races
    clean. I couldn't explain it to myself. It's very confusing. I haven't slept
    well for the last two or three years."

    More sleepless nights must await. On August 4, a disciplinary commission
    will decide the length of his ban. He will be stripped of the world title.
    He will probably sell his "dream home in Biarritz", which he has spent two
    and a half years having restored, but will never sleep in. Where next? He
    has no idea. He accepts what he has done, hopes the ban will not end his
    career, and now wishes to offer his services "to prevent young riders doing
    what I have done".

    For seven years Millar has been known as "Boy Dave" to me and my colleagues.
    He earned the nickname when he turned professional at the tender age of 19,
    and brought a fresh face, glamour, and a bit of rock-star chic to the
    two-wheeled world. Now, the boy faces a painful growing up.

  11. In article <[email hidden]>,

    andrew said:

    Very interesting stuff. Very sad though....

    The cycling authorities, like athletics authorities, are two-faced over
    drugs. They pay lip service to doping controls --- slightly more
    convincing lip-service in the case of track sports lately, perhaps, but
    only slightly --- but they want the television-friendly increases in
    performance that can (realistically) only come from drug use.

    Millar to his credit didn't engage in all the pitiful [censored] that track
    athletes engage in (``I didn't know I was taking it'' // ``I thought it
    was Ginseng tea'' // ``It's a different list of ingredients for the same
    brand''😉 and made a clean breast of it. He'll be back: any bets on
    Discovery Channel 2006? But it's manifestly obviously that the
    televised aerobic sporting event in which EPO is not being taken, or the
    televised anarobic sporting event in which steroids aren't being taken,
    for practical purposes doesn't exist. It would appear that every gold
    medal won by an American in the past six years is up for grabs, for
    example.

    ian

  12. in message <[email hidden]>, BrianW ([email hidden]'😉

    Quoted message said:


    "wheelsgoround" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In part of his interview Miller says "my salary dropped by 300%"

    Sums up the guy's intellegence

    Just goes to show that you don't need to take drugs to win. They've
    tried very hard to prove that Lance Armstrong did, but failed
    miserably. The will to win against all adversity beats performance
    enhancing drugs every time.

    Look at Obree, who in his desperation to win practically killed himself
    in his record attempts, ending up coughing blood. However, in order to
    even be able to do that, you also have to be exceedingly fit. Had Obree
    been less fit, he would have killed himself and wouldn't have got the
    record.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    Morning had broken. I found a rather battered tube of Araldite
    resin in the bottom of the toolbag.

  13. Callas said:
    Quoted message said:

    Just goes to show that you don't need to take drugs to win. They've tried
    very hard to prove that Lance Armstrong did, but failed miserably. The will
    to win against all adversity beats performance enhancing drugs every time.

    Quoted message said:

    Nice sentiment, but I don't think it's true.

    "every time", no, but sheer bloody determination does count for a lot.
    Look at how well the F1 drivers always did in "Superstars". Their sport
    /physically/ required them to be able to sit in a chair for two hours
    taking high g, hardly the sort of thing that sets you up well on paper
    against track athletes for a physical contest. Yet (IIRC) they always
    did consistently well. Keeping on top of things at 180 mph for two
    hours /is/ a bit of a mind game, though, especially if you do
    consistently better than everyone else at it.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  14. Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> wrote:
    : Look at how well the F1 drivers always did in "Superstars". Their sport
    : /physically/ required them to be able to sit in a chair for two hours
    : taking high g, hardly the sort of thing that sets you up well on paper
    : against track athletes for a physical contest. Yet (IIRC) they always
    : did consistently well.

    It's because all training is specific. Except for F1 where you have to
    do all your physical training outside the car. Hence what you do is
    good all-round stuff which sets you up very well for something like
    superstars. Cyclists tend to do very badly in superstars for the same
    reason.

    Arthur

    --
    Arthur Clune
    The opposite of homosexuality is not hetrosexuality but marriage
    - Felix Guittari

  15. Arthur Clune said:

    It's because all training is specific. Except for F1 where you have to
    do all your physical training outside the car. Hence what you do is
    good all-round stuff which sets you up very well for something like
    superstars. Cyclists tend to do very badly in superstars for the same
    reason.

    Accepted, but you simply don't /need/ to be in anything like the same
    physical shape as an athlete. So they'll be fit, but not /that/ fit, or
    at least so I'd have thought. I think an ego the size of the Hindenberg
    and huge reserves of sheer bloodymindedness will count for a lot.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  16. Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> wrote:

    : Accepted, but you simply don't /need/ to be in anything like the same
    : physical shape as an athlete. So they'll be fit, but not /that/ fit, or
    : at least so I'd have thought.

    My friends who are into F1 assure me that you do have to be very fit indeed.
    It's for the same reason fighter jet pilots have to be fit - you have to resist
    the g-forces etc.

    Arthur

    --
    Arthur Clune
    The opposite of homosexuality is not hetrosexuality but marriage
    - Felix Guittari

  17. On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:06:18 +0100, Peter Clinch <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Arthur Clune said:

    It's because all training is specific. Except for F1 where you have to
    do all your physical training outside the car. Hence what you do is
    good all-round stuff which sets you up very well for something like
    superstars. Cyclists tend to do very badly in superstars for the same
    reason.

    Accepted, but you simply don't /need/ to be in anything like the same
    physical shape as an athlete. So they'll be fit, but not /that/ fit, or
    at least so I'd have thought.

    But Superstars tested more than 'athletic' fitness. A lot of fell runners
    are bloody fit but they'd do [censored] at Superstars because they can't lift a
    shopping bag without help. So, while an F1 star might not be /that/ fit
    they could probably do more weights than the average distance runner. And
    doing moderatley well over a lot of disciplines is probably better than
    being superb at one when it comes to Superstars, Hercules, etc.

    Colin

  18. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Peter Clinch said:

    Accepted, but you simply don't /need/ to be in anything like the same
    physical shape as an athlete. So they'll be fit, but not /that/ fit, or
    at least so I'd have thought. I think an ego the size of the Hindenberg

    Schumacher now, and Senna before him, were said to have aerobic
    capacities to rank with the best: it's Schumacher's fitness which is
    often said to be one of the key differences between him and the rest.
    Reported heart rates are over 150 for the entire two hours of a race,
    for example, with resting heart rates in the low thirties. There's a
    paper by Sid Watkins, reprinted in the back of one of his books, where
    he looks at the fitness of (from memory) Didier Pironi, which he
    praises, and that long before F1 became as fitness-obsessed as it now
    is.

    On the cycling front, Prost is a regular on L'Etape (and was while he
    was driving), Sato I think also cycles to that sort of level, Webber did
    Lands End to John O'Groats (actually, I think, vice versa) a couple of
    winters ago, and did some huge ride / walk / run / canoe / sail thing
    off Australia late last year. Button's been cycling seriously, and
    Alonso has a Marin Mount Vision in Renault Colours (the Jon Whyte
    connection, perhaps).

    Trulli did a four hour marathon two weeks after the last GP of 2000,
    without any training outside his normal F1 stuff.

    http://www.channel4.com/4car/feature/features-2004/f1-fitness/f1-fitness-2.html
    reports an F3000 driver with an average heart race of 186 throughout a
    race (shorter than F1, to be fair).

    ian

  19. Ian G Batten said:

    Schumacher now, and Senna before him, were said to have aerobic
    capacities to rank with the best: it's Schumacher's fitness which is
    often said to be one of the key differences between him and the rest.
    Reported heart rates are over 150 for the entire two hours of a race,
    for example, with resting heart rates in the low thirties.


    <snip>

    Looks like I stand corrected...

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  20. On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:35:56 +0100, Callas <[email hidden]>
    wrote (more or less):

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Just goes to show that you don't need to take drugs to win. They've tried
    very hard to prove that Lance Armstrong did, but failed miserably. The will
    to win against all adversity beats performance enhancing drugs every time.

    Nice sentiment, but I don't think it's true.

    Especially when the will to win can lead onre /to/
    performance-enhancing drugs.

    They're far from mutually exclusive.

    --
    Cheers,
    Euan
    Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
    Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
    Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

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