Military press bad?

"Larry Hodges" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

What's the deal on this exercise. Is it potentially harmful? I seem to
remember seeing people post that it is risky. I usually do it on the HS
machine rather than dumbbells. Weight is 70lbs per side, 3 sets of 8
lately.

The reason I'm asking is I'm developing an "issue" in my shoulder. In
fact, I've taken three weeks off lifting because of it. I'm wondering
if military press is part of the problem. I resumed lifting yesterday
but took it easy. I had to favor my shoulder, but it wasn't painful.
And I didn't do military press.

It doesn't hurt to do military. It actually hurts to do flat bench
Maybe that's the problem? I am told I have good form on the bench.
Shoulder blades flat against the bench, elbows at 45 degrees, etc.

I've heard of mil press causing back problems, but I don't think I've heard
about other problems. On the other hand LOTS of people say benching is hard
on shoulders. You've read Hobbes on the subject? (He was Hobman at the
time.) You do lots of back/pull work to offset the bench work? You do
rotator cuff prehab work?

Hugh

--
Exercise is a dirty word. Whenever I hear it, I wash my mouth out with
chocolate. ("Ladi"😉

Larry,
My left shoulder seems to be permanently messed up so I use incline
press in my regular routine instead of bench. I also use dips, and the
pec machine so I feel I am hitting my chest good with these. I am very
cautious with dips since they used to always injure my shoulder, I like
the excercise so I have come up with the solution of using the assisted
machine for dips even though I have no problem doing body weight and
more. The pad under the legs keeps me from swinging at all and seems
to be keeping me from injuring the shoulder. I might even start using
a weighted belt on dips even though I keep a little tension on the leg
pad (I know this may seem ridiculous). I still do bench sometimes and
am actually getting curious what my max has gotten to on it since its
been a while since I have done it. I just noticed that bench was hard
on my shoulder if I did it regularly no matter how good my form was.
For overhead press I use dumbells and don't usually feel shoulder pain.
For overhead using a barbell feels harder on the joint to me and the
shoulder stabilizer muscles don't get built as much in my opinion.
Good luck on the shoulder and be careful with it. It helped my
shoulder tremendously when I started lifting with it again after it was
injured, the muscles stabilized it. So I guess I would recommend
shifting your routine so that you don't regularly feel pain in it. I
still always feel pain in my shoulder on the warmup, I just live with
it.

James

Larry Hodges said:

What's the deal on this exercise. Is it potentially harmful? I
seem to remember seeing people post that it is risky. I usually do
it on the HS machine rather than dumbbells. Weight is 70lbs per
side, 3 sets of 8 lately.

My primary exercise for pushing things up is "Arnold press"
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidAnterior/DBArnoldPress.html
It feels easier on the shoulders than military press. I don't see
machines as necessary for this kind of movement. I place dumbbells
vertically on the legs, then bring them up one by one to the starting
position with help of a slight kick.

In article <[email hidden]>,

DZ said:

Larry Hodges said:

What's the deal on this exercise. Is it potentially harmful? I
seem to remember seeing people post that it is risky. I usually do
it on the HS machine rather than dumbbells. Weight is 70lbs per
side, 3 sets of 8 lately.

My primary exercise for pushing things up is "Arnold press"
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidAnterior/DBArnoldPress.html
It feels easier on the shoulders than military press. I don't see
machines as necessary for this kind of movement. I place dumbbells
vertically on the legs, then bring them up one by one to the starting
position with help of a slight kick.

Hmm, I'd not seen that one.
Thanks for sharing it!

Nice ROM...
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]." -Jack Nicholson

Larry Hodges said:

What's the deal on this exercise. Is it potentially harmful?

Any exercise is potentially harmful if you use poor form, too much
weight and don't have the requisite flexibility to do the exercise.

Quoted message said:

It doesn't hurt to do military. It actually hurts to do flat bench Maybe
that's the problem? I am told I have good form on the bench. Shoulder
blades flat against the bench, elbows at 45 degrees, etc.

When you push up do you push straight up or as many people do, push
toward your head? Pushing toward your head makes the movement easier
but also puts a lot of stress of your shoulders especially during the
initial push up when the bar is on your chest.

You might have to lighten the weight and push straight up which works
the triceps more and makes the movement more difficult (that is why
you lighten the weight) but takes stress off the shoulders.

The other thing you can do is to not lower the weight to your chest
but instead find a block about 2-3 inches high and put it on your
chest so that the weight does not travel down too far putting
excessive stress on your shoulders.

And finally I suggest you stretch your shoulders very well and do
rotator cuff exercises.

Rich

"OmManiPadmeOmelet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

DZ said:

Larry Hodges said:

What's the deal on this exercise. Is it potentially harmful? I
seem to remember seeing people post that it is risky. I usually do
it on the HS machine rather than dumbbells. Weight is 70lbs per
side, 3 sets of 8 lately.

My primary exercise for pushing things up is "Arnold press"
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidAnterior/DBArnoldPress.html
It feels easier on the shoulders than military press. I don't see
machines as necessary for this kind of movement. I place dumbbells
vertically on the legs, then bring them up one by one to the starting
position with help of a slight kick.

Hmm, I'd not seen that one.
Thanks for sharing it!

Nice ROM...

This exercise is what we call a military press in the kettlebell world,
and it is a core movement for me, one I do every day. I think it's
about the best shoulder exercise there is, and I find it far preferable
with a kettlebell although the dumbbell version would be my choice if I
didn't have access to kettlebells. Doing it standing and one arm at a
time, and with strict form (no lean to the side or back whatsoever)
gives a great workout to the midsection (using a heavy enough weight, of
course).

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Quoted message said:

--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]." -Jack
Nicholson

Hugh Beyer said:

"Larry Hodges" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

What's the deal on this exercise. Is it potentially harmful? I
seem to remember seeing people post that it is risky. I usually do
it on the HS machine rather than dumbbells. Weight is 70lbs per
side, 3 sets of 8 lately.

The reason I'm asking is I'm developing an "issue" in my shoulder.
In fact, I've taken three weeks off lifting because of it. I'm
wondering if military press is part of the problem. I resumed
lifting yesterday but took it easy. I had to favor my shoulder, but
it wasn't painful. And I didn't do military press.

It doesn't hurt to do military. It actually hurts to do flat bench
Maybe that's the problem? I am told I have good form on the bench.
Shoulder blades flat against the bench, elbows at 45 degrees, etc.

I've heard of mil press causing back problems, but I don't think I've
heard about other problems. On the other hand LOTS of people say
benching is hard on shoulders. You've read Hobbes on the subject? (He
was Hobman at the time.) You do lots of back/pull work to offset the
bench work? You do rotator cuff prehab work?

Hugh

What is rotator cuff prehab work? Or did you mean rehab work? Either way,
I don't know anything about either. Edumacate me Oh Wise One.
--
-Larry

"The troll hasn't been born who can troll us worse than we troll
ourselves." Hugh Beyer

JamesG said:

Larry,
My left shoulder seems to be permanently messed up so I use incline
press in my regular routine instead of bench. I also use dips, and
the pec machine so I feel I am hitting my chest good with these. I
am very cautious with dips since they used to always injure my
shoulder, I like the excercise so I have come up with the solution of
using the assisted machine for dips even though I have no problem
doing body weight and more. The pad under the legs keeps me from
swinging at all and seems to be keeping me from injuring the
shoulder. I might even start using a weighted belt on dips even
though I keep a little tension on the leg pad (I know this may seem
ridiculous). I still do bench sometimes and am actually getting
curious what my max has gotten to on it since its been a while since
I have done it. I just noticed that bench was hard on my shoulder if
I did it regularly no matter how good my form was. For overhead press
I use dumbells and don't usually feel shoulder pain. For overhead
using a barbell feels harder on the joint to me and the shoulder
stabilizer muscles don't get built as much in my opinion. Good luck
on the shoulder and be careful with it. It helped my shoulder
tremendously when I started lifting with it again after it was
injured, the muscles stabilized it. So I guess I would recommend
shifting your routine so that you don't regularly feel pain in it. I
still always feel pain in my shoulder on the warmup, I just live with
it.

James

I don't get pain when doing military presses. But I do have pain during
flat bench. Maybe it's the flat bench that's the problem. I just was
assuming military was the culprit and it was showing up in flat bench.
--
-Larry

"The troll hasn't been born who can troll us worse than we troll
ourselves." Hugh Beyer

Quoted message said:

Larry Hodges said:

What's the deal on this exercise. Is it potentially harmful?

Any exercise is potentially harmful if you use poor form, too much
weight and don't have the requisite flexibility to do the exercise.

Quoted message said:

It doesn't hurt to do military. It actually hurts to do flat bench
Maybe that's the problem? I am told I have good form on the bench.
Shoulder blades flat against the bench, elbows at 45 degrees, etc.

When you push up do you push straight up or as many people do, push
toward your head? Pushing toward your head makes the movement easier
but also puts a lot of stress of your shoulders especially during the
initial push up when the bar is on your chest.

I tend to do both. Bringing the bar closer to my head, then up seems to be
easier on my shoulders.

Quoted message said:

You might have to lighten the weight and push straight up which works
the triceps more and makes the movement more difficult (that is why
you lighten the weight) but takes stress off the shoulders.

I'll try that.

Quoted message said:

The other thing you can do is to not lower the weight to your chest
but instead find a block about 2-3 inches high and put it on your
chest so that the weight does not travel down too far putting
excessive stress on your shoulders.

This actually is a great idea. The last couple of inches is where I get
pain in doing my flat bench.

Quoted message said:

And finally I suggest you stretch your shoulders very well and do
rotator cuff exercises.

Always do. And a couple of warmup sets prior to work sets.

Quoted message said:

Rich

--
-Larry

"The troll hasn't been born who can troll us worse than we troll
ourselves." Hugh Beyer

DZ said:

Larry Hodges said:

What's the deal on this exercise. Is it potentially harmful? I
seem to remember seeing people post that it is risky. I usually do
it on the HS machine rather than dumbbells. Weight is 70lbs per
side, 3 sets of 8 lately.

My primary exercise for pushing things up is "Arnold press"
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidAnterior/DBArnoldPress.html
It feels easier on the shoulders than military press. I don't see
machines as necessary for this kind of movement. I place dumbbells
vertically on the legs, then bring them up one by one to the starting
position with help of a slight kick.

I like the look of that, and have seen a couple of guys doing that at my
gym. I'll give it a try. Thanks.
--
-Larry

"The troll hasn't been born who can troll us worse than we troll
ourselves." Hugh Beyer

Larry Hodges said:

Quoted message said:

The other thing you can do is to not lower the weight to your chest
but instead find a block about 2-3 inches high and put it on your
chest so that the weight does not travel down too far putting
excessive stress on your shoulders.

This actually is a great idea. The last couple of inches is where I get
pain in doing my flat bench.

Find blocks of varying heights. Start with 3 inches and when you feel
comfortable with that at a particular weight, use the 2.5 inch block.
Gradually go lower toward your chest listening to your body. If you do
this very slowly and gradually your shoulder may accommodate to the
load even when the bar is close to your chest.

Also when you lower the bar to your chest you might be lowering it too
close to your neck. Try lowering it to your nipple level or below.
That will also reduce the stress on your shoulder.

Rich

In article <[email hidden]>,

Larry Hodges said:

Hugh Beyer said:

"Larry Hodges" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

What's the deal on this exercise. Is it potentially harmful? I
seem to remember seeing people post that it is risky. I usually do
it on the HS machine rather than dumbbells. Weight is 70lbs per
side, 3 sets of 8 lately.

The reason I'm asking is I'm developing an "issue" in my shoulder.
In fact, I've taken three weeks off lifting because of it. I'm
wondering if military press is part of the problem. I resumed
lifting yesterday but took it easy. I had to favor my shoulder, but
it wasn't painful. And I didn't do military press.

It doesn't hurt to do military. It actually hurts to do flat bench
Maybe that's the problem? I am told I have good form on the bench.
Shoulder blades flat against the bench, elbows at 45 degrees, etc.

I've heard of mil press causing back problems, but I don't think I've
heard about other problems. On the other hand LOTS of people say
benching is hard on shoulders. You've read Hobbes on the subject? (He
was Hobman at the time.) You do lots of back/pull work to offset the
bench work? You do rotator cuff prehab work?

Hugh

What is rotator cuff prehab work? Or did you mean rehab work? Either way,
I don't know anything about either. Edumacate me Oh Wise One.

Not the wise one, but I think I was the one who coined the phrase
'prehab' here. On the theory if you wait till you are injured to do
remedial work you've waited too long. Do the work prior and you won't
get injured.

--
Keith

DZ said:

Larry Hodges said:

What's the deal on this exercise. Is it potentially harmful? I
seem to remember seeing people post that it is risky. I usually do
it on the HS machine rather than dumbbells. Weight is 70lbs per
side, 3 sets of 8 lately.

My primary exercise for pushing things up is "Arnold press"
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidAnterior/DBArnoldPress.html
It feels easier on the shoulders than military press. I don't see
machines as necessary for this kind of movement. I place dumbbells
vertically on the legs, then bring them up one by one to the starting
position with help of a slight kick.

So you're thinking that the internal rotation is good for the rotator
cuffs? Uh, whatever.

Larry Hodges said:

It doesn't hurt to do military. It actually hurts to do flat bench Maybe
that's the problem? I am told I have good form on the bench. Shoulder
blades flat against the bench, elbows at 45 degrees, etc.

Where on the chest do you bring the bar to?

Are you doing any rotator cuff exercises? What about rear delt work?

JMW said:

DZ said:

Larry Hodges said:

What's the deal on this exercise. Is it potentially harmful? I
seem to remember seeing people post that it is risky. I usually do
it on the HS machine rather than dumbbells. Weight is 70lbs per
side, 3 sets of 8 lately.

My primary exercise for pushing things up is "Arnold press"
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidAnterior/DBArnoldPress.html
It feels easier on the shoulders than military press. I don't see
machines as necessary for this kind of movement. I place dumbbells
vertically on the legs, then bring them up one by one to the starting
position with help of a slight kick.

So you're thinking that the internal rotation is good for the rotator
cuffs? Uh, whatever.

It's not based on anatomical arguments. I just feel less strain on the
shoulders in the lower part of the movement when palms are faced that
way. If you care to convincingly elaborate I may change the way I do
the dumbbell press.

DZ said:

JMW said:

DZ said:

Larry Hodges <[email hidden]> wrote:
> What's the deal on this exercise. Is it potentially harmful? I
> seem to remember seeing people post that it is risky. I usually do
> it on the HS machine rather than dumbbells. Weight is 70lbs per
> side, 3 sets of 8 lately.

My primary exercise for pushing things up is "Arnold press"
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidAnterior/DBArnoldPress.html
It feels easier on the shoulders than military press. I don't see
machines as necessary for this kind of movement. I place dumbbells
vertically on the legs, then bring them up one by one to the starting
position with help of a slight kick.

So you're thinking that the internal rotation is good for the rotator
cuffs? Uh, whatever.

It's not based on anatomical arguments. I just feel less strain on the
shoulders in the lower part of the movement when palms are faced that
way. If you care to convincingly elaborate I may change the way I do
the dumbbell press.

See the movement of Neer's test for subacromial impingement. Note
that the final position is essentially the same as in the Arnold
Press. Now add in the fact that you are incorporating active internal
rotation during the movement, stressing and moving the supraspinatus
tendon in a limited subacromial space. It's hard to describe without
a 3D model, but if you make yourself familiar with the anatomy and put
yourself through the motions, you can figure out the issues.

Hobbes <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Larry Hodges said:

Hugh Beyer said:

"Larry Hodges" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

> What's the deal on this exercise. Is it potentially harmful? I
> seem to remember seeing people post that it is risky. I usually do
> it on the HS machine rather than dumbbells. Weight is 70lbs per
> side, 3 sets of 8 lately.
>
> The reason I'm asking is I'm developing an "issue" in my shoulder.
> In fact, I've taken three weeks off lifting because of it. I'm
> wondering if military press is part of the problem. I resumed
> lifting yesterday but took it easy. I had to favor my shoulder, but
> it wasn't painful. And I didn't do military press.
>
> It doesn't hurt to do military. It actually hurts to do flat bench
> Maybe that's the problem? I am told I have good form on the bench.
> Shoulder blades flat against the bench, elbows at 45 degrees, etc.

I've heard of mil press causing back problems, but I don't think I've
heard about other problems. On the other hand LOTS of people say
benching is hard on shoulders. You've read Hobbes on the subject? (He
was Hobman at the time.) You do lots of back/pull work to offset the
bench work? You do rotator cuff prehab work?

Hugh

What is rotator cuff prehab work? Or did you mean rehab work? Either
way, I don't know anything about either. Edumacate me Oh Wise One.

Not the wise one, but I think I was the one who coined the phrase
'prehab' here. On the theory if you wait till you are injured to do
remedial work you've waited too long. Do the work prior and you won't
get injured.

Likely enough you were the one to coin it.

For Larry, Keith pointed me at DB Hammer's approach when I was complaining
about Sheiko being too one-sided. You can google the original discussion
and Hammer's article is here:
http://www.elitefitnesssystems.com/documents/back_your_bench.htm

Hugh

--
Exercise is a dirty word. Whenever I hear it, I wash my mouth out with
chocolate. ("Ladi"😉

Hugh Beyer said:

Hobbes <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Larry Hodges said:

Hugh Beyer wrote:
> "Larry Hodges" <[email hidden]> wrote in
> news:[email hidden]:
>
>> What's the deal on this exercise. Is it potentially harmful? I
>> seem to remember seeing people post that it is risky. I usually
>> do it on the HS machine rather than dumbbells. Weight is 70lbs
>> per side, 3 sets of 8 lately.
>>
>> The reason I'm asking is I'm developing an "issue" in my shoulder.
>> In fact, I've taken three weeks off lifting because of it. I'm
>> wondering if military press is part of the problem. I resumed
>> lifting yesterday but took it easy. I had to favor my shoulder,
>> but it wasn't painful. And I didn't do military press.
>>
>> It doesn't hurt to do military. It actually hurts to do flat
>> bench Maybe that's the problem? I am told I have good form on
>> the bench. Shoulder blades flat against the bench, elbows at 45
>> degrees, etc.
>
> I've heard of mil press causing back problems, but I don't think
> I've heard about other problems. On the other hand LOTS of people
> say benching is hard on shoulders. You've read Hobbes on the
> subject? (He was Hobman at the time.) You do lots of back/pull
> work to offset the bench work? You do rotator cuff prehab work?
>
> Hugh

What is rotator cuff prehab work? Or did you mean rehab work?
Either way, I don't know anything about either. Edumacate me Oh
Wise One.

Not the wise one, but I think I was the one who coined the phrase
'prehab' here. On the theory if you wait till you are injured to do
remedial work you've waited too long. Do the work prior and you won't
get injured.

Likely enough you were the one to coin it.

For Larry, Keith pointed me at DB Hammer's approach when I was
complaining about Sheiko being too one-sided. You can google the
original discussion and Hammer's article is here:
http://www.elitefitnesssystems.com/documents/back_your_bench.htm

Hugh

Thanks...
--
-Larry

"The troll hasn't been born who can troll us worse than we troll
ourselves." Hugh Beyer

Jeff Finlayson said:

Larry Hodges said:

It doesn't hurt to do military. It actually hurts to do flat bench Maybe
that's the problem? I am told I have good form on the bench. Shoulder
blades flat against the bench, elbows at 45 degrees, etc.

Where on the chest do you bring the bar to?

Nipples or just below them.

Quoted message said:

Are you doing any rotator cuff exercises? What about rear delt work?

I don't know any rotator cuff exercises. I would if I knew some. I'll look
into what Hugh recommended. And yes, for delt work (in addition to military
press), I do dumbbell lateral raise and front raise.
--
-Larry

"The troll hasn't been born who can troll us worse than we troll
ourselves." Hugh Beyer