Middle and rear delts

Quoted message said:

The shoulder component of my workout is no good. I think this stems
from my inability to really "feel" all but my anterior delts.

I understand that one can make the same exercise work different

muscles

Quoted message said:

(I can fatigue my pecs, tris, or front delts when I do bench

presses),

Quoted message said:

but I haven't really ever found a way to "feel" my rear delts. I feel
like, no matter what lift I choose, I find a way to cheat.

Any suggestions?

Have you tried a reverse peck dec or bent over lateral raises ? If you
do bent over raises try doing them laying chest down on the bench (put
the bench up on something if you must) makes it hard to cheat.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The shoulder component of my workout is no good. I think this stems
from my inability to really "feel" all but my anterior delts.

I understand that one can make the same exercise work different
muscles
(I can fatigue my pecs, tris, or front delts when I do bench presses),
but I haven't really ever found a way to "feel" my rear delts. I feel
like, no matter what lift I choose, I find a way to cheat.

Any suggestions?

My understanding is that the Arnold press hits all of the shoulder
pretty well. It certainly hits the middle delts hard and hits the rear
ones a whole lot more than bench pressing. Here's a picture and
description:

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidAnterior/DBArnoldPress.html

This movement, in the kettlebell world, is called a military press, and
usually performed standing, and most of the time one side at a time.
It's a core movement for me, one I do six or seven days a week, and I do
nothing else specifically for my shoulders although I do deadlift.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Quoted message said:

The shoulder component of my workout is no good. I think this stems
from my inability to really "feel" all but my anterior delts.

I understand that one can make the same exercise work different muscles
(I can fatigue my pecs, tris, or front delts when I do bench presses),
but I haven't really ever found a way to "feel" my rear delts. I feel
like, no matter what lift I choose, I find a way to cheat.

Sit on the corner of a bench holding a dumbbell in one hand,
dangling between your knees.

Set your back at about a 45-degree angle to the floor,
with your shoulders at the same height. I put my other
hand on the corner of the bench between my legs so my back
takes less of the stress.

Lift the dumbbell straight up to nearly touch the front
of your shoulder, with your elbow away from your side,
keeping your shoulder down rather than back (the natural
cheat is to raise that shoulder to help the weight up).

This should hit your supraspinatus and rear delt, with
a little elbow-flexor (bicep/brachialis/brachioradialis)
action, while minimizing involvement by your traps, lats,
and teres.

--Blair
"Works for me."

On 20 Apr 2005 11:09:46 -0700, [email hidden] wrote in
misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

The shoulder component of my workout is no good. I think this stems
from my inability to really "feel" all but my anterior delts.

I understand that one can make the same exercise work different muscles
(I can fatigue my pecs, tris, or front delts when I do bench presses),
but I haven't really ever found a way to "feel" my rear delts. I feel
like, no matter what lift I choose, I find a way to cheat.

Any suggestions?

No. What happened to your 100+ line .sig?

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:3cog0sF6ovgfcU1
@individual.net:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The shoulder component of my workout is no good. I think this stems
from my inability to really "feel" all but my anterior delts.

I understand that one can make the same exercise work different
muscles
(I can fatigue my pecs, tris, or front delts when I do bench presses),
but I haven't really ever found a way to "feel" my rear delts. I feel
like, no matter what lift I choose, I find a way to cheat.

Any suggestions?

My understanding is that the Arnold press hits all of the shoulder
pretty well. It certainly hits the middle delts hard and hits the rear
ones a whole lot more than bench pressing. Here's a picture and
description:

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidAnterior/DBArnoldPress.html

This movement, in the kettlebell world, is called a military press, and
usually performed standing, and most of the time one side at a time.
It's a core movement for me, one I do six or seven days a week, and I do
nothing else specifically for my shoulders although I do deadlift.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

You're claiming an Arnold Press hits the *rear* delts?

Hugh

--
Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will attend no other.

"Hugh Beyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:3cog0sF6ovgfcU1
@individual.net:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The shoulder component of my workout is no good. I think this stems
from my inability to really "feel" all but my anterior delts.

I understand that one can make the same exercise work different
muscles
(I can fatigue my pecs, tris, or front delts when I do bench
presses),
but I haven't really ever found a way to "feel" my rear delts. I
feel
like, no matter what lift I choose, I find a way to cheat.

Any suggestions?

My understanding is that the Arnold press hits all of the shoulder
pretty well. It certainly hits the middle delts hard and hits the
rear
ones a whole lot more than bench pressing. Here's a picture and
description:

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidAnterior/DBArnoldPress.html

This movement, in the kettlebell world, is called a military press,
and
usually performed standing, and most of the time one side at a time.
It's a core movement for me, one I do six or seven days a week, and I
do
nothing else specifically for my shoulders although I do deadlift.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

You're claiming an Arnold Press hits the *rear* delts?

No - "hits ... more than bench pressing," just by virtue of the
direction the weight is moving.

Besides, this is Usenet, and I'm claiming I weigh 250 lbs. and am 6' 13"
tall.

All kidding aside, I don't see how you can one-armed press a heavy
weight overhead and not use every muscle around the shoulder to
stabilize. I suppose, if you're into the idea of isolation and making a
point of only using the muscles absolutely necessary to move a light
weight, you could manage to keep your rear delt relaxed while you do
this, but what's the point? Kind of like talking about whether
deadlifting "hits" the lats - that sort of thing.

Steve "at least I'm taller than Will Brink" Freides
http://www.kbnj.com

Quoted message said:

Hugh

--
Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will attend no other.

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

"Hugh Beyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:3cog0sF6ovgfcU1 @individual.net:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> The shoulder component of my workout is no good. I think this stems
> from my inability to really "feel" all but my anterior delts.
>
> I understand that one can make the same exercise work different
> muscles (I can fatigue my pecs, tris, or front delts when I do bench
> presses), but I haven't really ever found a way to "feel" my rear
> delts. I feel like, no matter what lift I choose, I find a way to
> cheat.
>
> Any suggestions?

My understanding is that the Arnold press hits all of the shoulder
pretty well. It certainly hits the middle delts hard and hits the
rear ones a whole lot more than bench pressing. Here's a picture and
description:

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidAnterior/DBArnoldPress.html

This movement, in the kettlebell world, is called a military press,
and usually performed standing, and most of the time one side at a
time. It's a core movement for me, one I do six or seven days a week,
and I do nothing else specifically for my shoulders although I do
deadlift.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

You're claiming an Arnold Press hits the *rear* delts?

No - "hits ... more than bench pressing," just by virtue of the
direction the weight is moving.

That's an idiotic distinction

Quoted message said:

All kidding aside, I don't see how you can one-armed press a heavy
weight overhead and not use every muscle around the shoulder to
stabilize. I suppose, if you're into the idea of isolation and making a
point of only using the muscles absolutely necessary to move a light
weight, you could manage to keep your rear delt relaxed while you do
this, but what's the point? Kind of like talking about whether
deadlifting "hits" the lats - that sort of thing.

Nothing wrong with AP's but he should do something to hit the shoulder
from all angles (the shoulder is one joint where that statement makes
sense) and APs aren't it.

Hugh

--
Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will attend no other.

"Hugh Beyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

"Hugh Beyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:3cog0sF6ovgfcU1 @individual.net:

> <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>> The shoulder component of my workout is no good. I think this
>> stems
>> from my inability to really "feel" all but my anterior delts.
>>
>> I understand that one can make the same exercise work different
>> muscles (I can fatigue my pecs, tris, or front delts when I do
>> bench
>> presses), but I haven't really ever found a way to "feel" my rear
>> delts. I feel like, no matter what lift I choose, I find a way to
>> cheat.
>>
>> Any suggestions?
>
> My understanding is that the Arnold press hits all of the shoulder
> pretty well. It certainly hits the middle delts hard and hits the
> rear ones a whole lot more than bench pressing. Here's a picture
> and
> description:
>
> http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidAnterior/DBArnoldPress.html
>
> This movement, in the kettlebell world, is called a military press,
> and usually performed standing, and most of the time one side at a
> time. It's a core movement for me, one I do six or seven days a
> week,
> and I do nothing else specifically for my shoulders although I do
> deadlift.
>
> -S-
> http://www.kbnj.com
>

You're claiming an Arnold Press hits the *rear* delts?

No - "hits ... more than bench pressing," just by virtue of the
direction the weight is moving.

That's an idiotic distinction

No, I don't think it is. A muscle on the back of the shoulder is much
more likely to be used if the weight is being move up instead of to the
front. The closer the angle of the movement gets to pulling the
shoulder back, the more the rear delt would be likely to get involved.
Take a look at, e.g., the description of primary and secondary movers in
various "fly" movement in the "7-Minute Rotator Cuff Solution" - the
front movement doesn't mention the rear delts, and the rear movement
doesn't mention the front ones, but the side movement mentions both the
front and back delts as secondary movers. And the shoulder motion in
the Arnold Press is a lot like the shoulder movement in a side delt fly.

I'll stand by my point - I think you'll get more rear delt involvement
overhead pressing than you will in bench pressing, all other things
being equal.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

All kidding aside, I don't see how you can one-armed press a heavy
weight overhead and not use every muscle around the shoulder to
stabilize. I suppose, if you're into the idea of isolation and
making a
point of only using the muscles absolutely necessary to move a light
weight, you could manage to keep your rear delt relaxed while you do
this, but what's the point? Kind of like talking about whether
deadlifting "hits" the lats - that sort of thing.

Nothing wrong with AP's but he should do something to hit the shoulder
from all angles (the shoulder is one joint where that statement makes
sense) and APs aren't it.

Some of us don't do rear-delt-specific work, do the "AP" and other
movements that work the entire shoulder (e.g., the kettlebell windmill,
http://www.kbnj.com/windmill.rm), and have healthy, strong shoulders.
Works for me but I claim only being an experiment of one - your mileage
may vary.

Steve "still taller than Will Brink" Freides
http://www.kbnj.com

Quoted message said:

Hugh

--
Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will attend no other.

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:3cq080F6pb786U1
@individual.net:

Quoted message said:

"Hugh Beyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

"Hugh Beyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> "Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in
> news:3cog0sF6ovgfcU1 @individual.net:
>
>> <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>> news:[email hidden]...
>>> The shoulder component of my workout is no good. I think this

stems

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>> from my inability to really "feel" all but my anterior delts.
>>>
>>> I understand that one can make the same exercise work different
>>> muscles (I can fatigue my pecs, tris, or front delts when I do

bench

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>> presses), but I haven't really ever found a way to "feel" my rear
>>> delts. I feel like, no matter what lift I choose, I find a way to
>>> cheat.
>>>
>>> Any suggestions?
>>
>> My understanding is that the Arnold press hits all of the shoulder
>> pretty well. It certainly hits the middle delts hard and hits the
>> rear ones a whole lot more than bench pressing. Here's a picture

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> description:
>>
>>

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidAnterior/DBArnoldPress.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>
>> This movement, in the kettlebell world, is called a military press,
>> and usually performed standing, and most of the time one side at a
>> time. It's a core movement for me, one I do six or seven days a

week,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> and I do nothing else specifically for my shoulders although I do
>> deadlift.
>>
>> -S-
>> http://www.kbnj.com
>>
>
> You're claiming an Arnold Press hits the *rear* delts?

No - "hits ... more than bench pressing," just by virtue of the
direction the weight is moving.

That's an idiotic distinction

No, I don't think it is. A muscle on the back of the shoulder is much
more likely to be used if the weight is being move up instead of to the
front. The closer the angle of the movement gets to pulling the
shoulder back, the more the rear delt would be likely to get involved.
Take a look at, e.g., the description of primary and secondary movers in
various "fly" movement in the "7-Minute Rotator Cuff Solution" - the
front movement doesn't mention the rear delts, and the rear movement
doesn't mention the front ones, but the side movement mentions both the
front and back delts as secondary movers. And the shoulder motion in
the Arnold Press is a lot like the shoulder movement in a side delt fly.

I'll stand by my point - I think you'll get more rear delt involvement
overhead pressing than you will in bench pressing, all other things
being equal.

Idiotic. Might as well say you get more calf development OH pressing than
bench pressing.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

All kidding aside, I don't see how you can one-armed press a heavy
weight overhead and not use every muscle around the shoulder to
stabilize. I suppose, if you're into the idea of isolation and
making a
point of only using the muscles absolutely necessary to move a light
weight, you could manage to keep your rear delt relaxed while you do
this, but what's the point? Kind of like talking about whether
deadlifting "hits" the lats - that sort of thing.

Nothing wrong with AP's but he should do something to hit the shoulder
from all angles (the shoulder is one joint where that statement makes
sense) and APs aren't it.

Some of us don't do rear-delt-specific work, do the "AP" and other
movements that work the entire shoulder (e.g., the kettlebell windmill,
http://www.kbnj.com/windmill.rm), and have healthy, strong shoulders.
Works for me but I claim only being an experiment of one - your mileage
may vary.

Any non-retarded KB routine will work the whole shoulder.

Hugh

--
Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will attend no other.

Quoted message said:

No. What happened to your 100+ line .sig?

You must have me confused with someone else.

Otherwise-- thanks, everyone for your advice.

Steve Freides said:

"Hugh Beyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

"Hugh Beyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> "Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in
> news:3cog0sF6ovgfcU1 @individual.net:
>
>> <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>> news:[email hidden]...
>>> The shoulder component of my workout is no good. I think this
>>> stems
>>> from my inability to really "feel" all but my anterior delts.
>>>
>>> I understand that one can make the same exercise work different
>>> muscles (I can fatigue my pecs, tris, or front delts when I do
>>> bench
>>> presses), but I haven't really ever found a way to "feel" my rear
>>> delts. I feel like, no matter what lift I choose, I find a way to
>>> cheat.
>>>
>>> Any suggestions?
>>
>> My understanding is that the Arnold press hits all of the shoulder
>> pretty well. It certainly hits the middle delts hard and hits the
>> rear ones a whole lot more than bench pressing. Here's a picture
>> and
>> description:
>>
>> http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidAnterior/DBArnoldPress.html
>>
>> This movement, in the kettlebell world, is called a military press,
>> and usually performed standing, and most of the time one side at a
>> time. It's a core movement for me, one I do six or seven days a
>> week,
>> and I do nothing else specifically for my shoulders although I do
>> deadlift.
>>
>> -S-
>> http://www.kbnj.com
>>
>
> You're claiming an Arnold Press hits the *rear* delts?

No - "hits ... more than bench pressing," just by virtue of the
direction the weight is moving.

That's an idiotic distinction

No, I don't think it is. A muscle on the back of the shoulder is much
more likely to be used if the weight is being move up instead of to the
front. The closer the angle of the movement gets to pulling the
shoulder back, the more the rear delt would be likely to get involved.
Take a look at, e.g., the description of primary and secondary movers in
various "fly" movement in the "7-Minute Rotator Cuff Solution" - the
front movement doesn't mention the rear delts, and the rear movement
doesn't mention the front ones, but the side movement mentions both the
front and back delts as secondary movers. And the shoulder motion in
the Arnold Press is a lot like the shoulder movement in a side delt fly.

I'll stand by my point - I think you'll get more rear delt involvement
overhead pressing than you will in bench pressing, all other things
being equal.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

All kidding aside, I don't see how you can one-armed press a heavy
weight overhead and not use every muscle around the shoulder to
stabilize. I suppose, if you're into the idea of isolation and
making a
point of only using the muscles absolutely necessary to move a light
weight, you could manage to keep your rear delt relaxed while you do
this, but what's the point? Kind of like talking about whether
deadlifting "hits" the lats - that sort of thing.

Nothing wrong with AP's but he should do something to hit the shoulder
from all angles (the shoulder is one joint where that statement makes
sense) and APs aren't it.

Some of us don't do rear-delt-specific work, do the "AP" and other
movements that work the entire shoulder (e.g., the kettlebell windmill,
http://www.kbnj.com/windmill.rm), and have healthy, strong shoulders.
Works for me but I claim only being an experiment of one - your mileage
may vary.

Steve "still taller than Will Brink" Freides
http://www.kbnj.com

In Ken Kinakin's Optimal Muscle Training, 4 different DB shoulder
presses are compared. The one where the elbows are in line with
shoulders at 3:00 and 9:00 in the bottom position is the only one
where the benefit is maximal stress on _all_ the shoulder muscles.
"Good shoulder flexibility is needed to get the elbows back in line
with the shoulders, stressing the shoulder joints and capsules."
According to Kinakin, this version is also the only one where the
risk is "medium"; all the others have "low" risk. It is also the only
one where the benefit is "high."

My interpretation of Pavel's AP (using a KB) is that it would work all
three heads of the deltoid. He starts with his working shoulder
maximally pressed down and the elbow pulled slightly inward towards
the belly button. This maneuver pre-stretches the delts. The lifter
is then advised to "visualize pushing outward with the elbow - sort of
a lateral raise- while keeping the forearm vertical." The idea is to
"try to press the bell to the side as much as up."

I see a correspondence between Kinakin's 3-9 DB press and
Tsatsouline's AP with a KB. (Steve can - and will - correct me if he
disagrees.)