Micro burst question for Dr. Coggan

Quadsweep said:

About a micro burst workout in which you do 15 seconds on at 150% FTP and 15 seconds off at 50% FTP for 10 minutes. What specific neuromuscular adaptation occur? One that won' happen is adaptation to increase "maximal" neuromuscular power. One that will is probably muscular force to some degree. Is that right?
Anything else?

Dr. Coggans quote from another thread.
"One last attempt: under my schema, level 7 training is training aimed at inducing neuromuscular (instead of metabolic) adaptations. These include - but are not limited to! - an increase in maximal neuromuscular power.
Thus, even though the maximal power requirement when performing microintervals is "capped" by the average power that can be sustained*, they still qualify as level 7 training because they are intended to induce specific neuromuscular adaptations."

Thank you[img]cyclingforums.comsmile.gifOpen ↗[/img]

I'm interested in Dr. Coggan's answer, and I don't really understand the physiology behind it, but, I remembered Ric Stern's quote:
"Neuromuscular adaptations are specific to the speed and joint angle trained."

Combine that with this line from a PubMed Abstract I got to by typing "neuromuscular adaptation."

Human neuromuscular adaptations that accompany changes in activity.

• McComas AJ.
  

Department of Biomedical Sciences, McMaster Health Sciences Centre, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.

"Neuromuscular adaptations probably occur at all levels of the motor pathway, following changes in muscular activity."

I could be wrong, but my construction given these pieces of information is that any change in muscular force/velocity results in a specific neuromuscular adaptation (iow, the muscle learns to work better that certain way) and that specificity is the most important thing to keep in mind while doing these workouts.

whoawhoa said:

I'm interested in Dr. Coggan's answer, ....

I'm always interested in Andy's answers as well, but I think he answered this one in a thread questioning microintervals a few weeks ago. As I understood it there's neuromuscular in terms of peak power (emphasis muscular) and neuromuscular in terms of training your body to quickly recruit large groups of muscle fibers on demand (emphasis neuro). IOW these microbursts help you with acceleration from one power level to another, or give you snap, something steady efforts don't really do.

-Dave

I'm really interested in the micro intervals. I don't really understand how to contruct them and where they should fit into my training plan. Any comments or links on those two points would be very much appreaciated. Also, i've been reading Greg Lemonds book, the 1990 version, and he advocates sprints that are 15 seconds long, which i throught very interesting as the book was written a long time ago, and states the benefits to be similar to those mentioned above, the difference being he recommends you allow a full recovery between efforts, how would this change the adaptations that take place? Also from another thread it was stated that the training effect of training of micro intervals is the average power of the combined effort and recovery of the interval. My question is what % of ftp should the recovery component be at, as then i can work out what % of ftp the wattage the effort component of the interal should be at for obtaining adaptations at the level i choose.

Regards,

Mac

mac_220 said:

I'm really interested in the micro intervals. I don't really understand how to contruct them and where they should fit into my training plan. Any comments or links on those two points would be very much appreaciated. Also, i've been reading Greg Lemonds book, the 1990 version, and he advocates sprints that are 15 seconds long, which i throught very interesting as the book was written a long time ago, and states the benefits to be similar to those mentioned above, the difference being he recommends you allow a full recovery between efforts, how would this change the adaptations that take place? Also from another thread it was stated that the training effect of training of micro intervals is the average power of the combined effort and recovery of the interval. My question is what % of ftp should the recovery component be at, as then i can work out what % of ftp the wattage the effort component of the interal should be at for obtaining adaptations at the level i choose.

Regards,

Mac

Do them when well rested in the week...like after a rest day. Do them first in the day too, unless you are doing sprints which are higher intensity, then do them later that day or the next day.
15 seconds "on" and 15 "off".....the "on" part is at 150% FTP and the "off" is at 50% FTP.... for 10 minutes total. Work up to 2-3 sets of 10 with 10 minutes easy between sets.

The benefits of 10-15 second SPRINTS is to MAX neuromuscular POWER. The neuromuscular benefits of micro bursts do not include this and Lemond knew that.
He has no micro burst workouts in his book.
The micro burst effort isn't even close bro. Sprints are all out and you reach 300plus FTP power. Then you rest for at least 3 minutes so ATP stores can recupe 100% or very near to. The micro bursts do not use ATP for fuel like a sprint, but rather energy is produced for this effort by glycogen both aerobically and anaerobically...leaning to the anaerobic.

TiMan said:

Do them when well rested in the week...like after a rest day. Do them first in the day too, unless you are doing sprints which are higher intensity, then do them later that day or the next day.
15 seconds "on" and 15 "off".....the "on" part is at 150% FTP and the "off" is at 50% FTP.... for 10 minutes total. Work up to 2-3 sets of 10 with 10 minutes easy between sets.

The benefits of 10-15 second SPRINTS is to MAX neuromuscular POWER. The neuromuscular benefits of micro bursts do not include this and Lemond knew that.
He has no micro burst workouts in his book.
The micro burst effort isn't even close bro. Sprints are all out and you reach 300plus FTP power. Then you rest for at least 3 minutes so ATP stores can recupe 100% or very near to. The micro bursts do not use ATP for fuel like a sprint, but rather energy is produced for this effort by glycogen both aerobically and anaerobically...leaning to the anaerobic.

Thanks for taking the time to answer, It's much appreciated.

Regards,

Mac

mac_220 said:

I'm really interested in the micro intervals. I don't really understand how to contruct them

Mac

On that note, I find one of the challenges in doing these on the trainer, is trying to figure out the smoothest way to switch between the two levels. How much gear shifting vs. change of cadence or change in resistance on my trainer, etc? I know I don't like to have a hand on the resistance button the whole time.:o

postal_bag said:

On that note, I find one of the challenges in doing these on the trainer, is trying to figure out the smoothest way to switch between the two levels. How much gear shifting vs. change of cadence or change in resistance on my trainer, etc? I know I don't like to have a hand on the resistance button the whole time.:o

I don't know how others do these but I make a gear shift or two and then jump out of the saddle. I've tried to do them seated and I can't.

What we need is to have members of this list post some intreval videos to you tube. ;-)

objective said:

I don't know how others do these but I make a gear shift or two and then jump out of the saddle. I've tried to do them seated and I can't.

What we need is to have members of this list post some intreval videos to you tube. ;-)

Don't know if it is right/wrong, good/bad but I just keep the same gear and excelerate the cranks on the "on phase" and let them slow down on the "off phase". Nuero muscular adaption for accelerations I guess. Don't do them much, they are tough. Do them closer to having to ride like that outside, closer to racing.

postal_bag said:

On that note, I find one of the challenges in doing these on the trainer, is trying to figure out the smoothest way to switch between the two levels. How much gear shifting vs. change of cadence or change in resistance on my trainer, etc? I know I don't like to have a hand on the resistance button the whole time.:o

When I do quick on/off intervals, I don't shift gears between intervals at all. The on periods are in the saddle 'spin ups' to a high cadence for 15-30 seconds in a moderate gear, and then the off period is a soft pedal rest. The feel is like accelerating out of a corner in a crit race (which I think should be done in a light gear and high cadence), and then cruising easily into the next corner.

frenchyge said:

When I do quick on/off intervals, I don't shift gears between intervals at all. The on periods are in the saddle 'spin ups' to a high cadence for 15-30 seconds in a moderate gear, and then the off period is a soft pedal rest. The feel is like accelerating out of a corner in a crit race (which I think should be done in a light gear and high cadence), and then cruising easily into the next corner.

Ah. Much better. Duh. When I do as you described, I can stay in the saddle and the interval is easier.

frenchyge said:

When I do quick on/off intervals, I don't shift gears between intervals at all. The on periods are in the saddle 'spin ups' to a high cadence for 15-30 seconds in a moderate gear, and then the off period is a soft pedal rest. The feel is like accelerating out of a corner in a crit race (which I think should be done in a light gear and high cadence), and then cruising easily into the next corner.

I see. Do you find that you end up spinning up to 130+ rpms?

postal_bag said:

I see. Do you find that you end up spinning up to 130+ rpms?

I do them both ways: 1) shift to keep cadence constant, 2) don't shift and increase rpm. See attached image for graphs of both.

When I do #1 on my Cyclops Fluid trainer, it works out that I only need to shift between small and big-ring to keep me at 100rpm. For #2 my cadence bounces between 100 and 120rpm.

Either way, I try to shoot for on/off cycles of 150/50% FTP, but in practice that doesn't always happen as you can see, especially in the second graph. But I still hit my target for average power which is the important part.

postal_bag said:

Do you find that you end up spinning up to 130+ rpms?

Probably not quite that high. I tend to pick a gear that puts me a bit overgeared during the off periods, and I ramp it up to ~110-120 during the on periods.

I´m using a Tacx i-Magic where I can write little programms with changing slope or required power output for this purpose. Since training by power via i-Magic is not all that accurate I`d rather go by slope. Has anyone experience what slopes are reasonable in the on/off phase. I saw Uhl rides a Fluid where he cannot change resistance/slope and just had to shift between 60 and 120 rpm. So I would set a slope of +3 for the "on" and 0 for the "off" and hope to be able to stay between about 80 and 120 rpm. Suggestions?

Speedskater said:

I´m using a Tacx i-Magic where I can write little programms with changing slope or required power output for this purpose. Since training by power via i-Magic is not all that accurate I`d rather go by slope. Has anyone experience what slopes are reasonable in the on/off phase. I saw Uhl rides a Fluid where he cannot change resistance/slope and just had to shift between 60 and 120 rpm. So I would set a slope of +3 for the "on" and 0 for the "off" and hope to be able to stay between about 80 and 120 rpm. Suggestions?

You can do it in ergo mode, but it is not easy to find right gearing so the brake is working WITHIN it's range for both on and off periods.


The program for green Catalyst software is here:
http://republika.pl/calzone/L4mi_490W.pgm

mirek said:

You can do it in ergo mode, but it is not easy to find right gearing so the brake is working WITHIN it's range for both on and off periods.


The program for green Catalyst software is here:
http://republika.pl/calzone/L4mi_490W.pgm

I have got the blue catalyst.

As I wrote, the wattage the Tacx claims is very unreliable and even worse, it´s inconsistent. In the lower ranges, performance is underestimated by the Tacx and at higher lewels it´s shown way to high. Therefor I don´t want to run in ergo mode.

Speedskater said:

I have got the blue catalyst.

As I wrote, the wattage the Tacx claims is very unreliable and even worse, it´s inconsistent. In the lower ranges, performance is underestimated by the Tacx and at higher lewels it´s shown way to high. Therefor I don´t want to run in ergo mode.

100% agreed, "blue" watts are unreal. Fortius soft was written for fortius motorbrake hardware anyway. There is green Catalyst standalone application which is much more accurate for imagic standardbrake.
http://www.xtraspace.nl/~ilink/download/Catalyst%20UK101.exe

mirek said:

100% agreed, "blue" watts are unreal. Fortius soft was written for fortius motorbrake hardware anyway. There is green Catalyst standalone application which is much more accurate for imagic standardbrake.
http://www.xtraspace.nl/~ilink/download/Catalyst%20UK101.exe

Thanks for that comment. I wasn´t aware that there is such a discrepancy between these two versions.

Speedskater said:

I´m using a Tacx i-Magic where I can write little programms with changing slope or required power output for this purpose. Since training by power via i-Magic is not all that accurate I`d rather go by slope. Has anyone experience what slopes are reasonable in the on/off phase. I saw Uhl rides a Fluid where he cannot change resistance/slope and just had to shift between 60 and 120 rpm. So I would set a slope of +3 for the "on" and 0 for the "off" and hope to be able to stay between about 80 and 120 rpm. Suggestions?

Any testing that I have done with Catalyst has led to very disappointing results, as Catalyst overshoots power. I have found that it also "eases" into the changes that I have programmed. If you wanted to vary the slope, I would recommend something along the lines of a +1/-1 and keep the same cadence.

What I would suggest is to ride the flat part of Capricorn and vary your power that way. I have found the virtual world to be very close in terms of power. I typically see less than 5% difference between what the Imagic displays and what my power tap reads.

I do a spin-down calibration on my Imagic weekly. 10 seconds +/- .1 @ 25 mph in Catalyst with zero slope after a 30 minute warm up.

Jim